Solve Pool/Snooker Dispute: Smaller or Larger Tip?

[jambaugh]

Damn, but I am enjoying discussing this with fellow players!
I don't know whether or not there is a particular amount of curvature and/or reversal that determines whether or not a shot is a masse.

I used to think masse referred to the extreme case and I would call "gentle masses" curve shots, or in my own vernacular "scooching the ball". But in reading on the topic it seems the consensus is that any axial spin induced curving of the rolling ball's path is a masse.

Regards,
James Baugh
P.S. I only have a partial file of the masse physics here at home. The full file is on my PC in my office. But it is in MSWord format and so I think I'll transcribe it to Latex and make some clarifying edits along the way.
R. JB.

 

[adr147]

masse is not a term we use here we call it a swerve. swerves come in various sizes and the bigger they are the less likely you are to make the shot!

 

[Danger]

Well, apparently 'swerve' and 'masse' are the same thing. I've often wondered why a game devised in Britain would have a French word associated with it.

work, oh yes i remember that - its that thing other people do!

Hey, I only do it so I can buy cat food for Lucy.

 

[adr147]

Well, apparently 'swerve' and 'masse' are the same thing. I've often wondered why a game devised in Britain would have a French word associated with it.


Hey, I only do it so I can buy cat food for Lucy.

i think billiards which was the first cue sport came from france about 600 years ago? but then the whole english language has latin to french to english as one of its origins.

is lucy your wife or a cat?

 

[Danger]

My cat, but she and W sometimes fight over the food.

Okay, my work day is over. I'm going to log off to do my cashout and go home. Back in 20 or so.

 

[adr147]

well i am off to the pub to think about pool shots over a few beers!

 

[adr147]

beer is a wonderful thing - really brings out the physics!

 

[Danger]

Sorry, I got distracted by a couple of neighbours partying on the lawn, and then by a steak that needed attention, and by a few more beers, and...
...I just got started posting this, and got hailed through the balcony window by my neighbour (who, incidentally, bears no resemblance to Romeo) to come out on the lawn for some beers. I love PF, but I also love beer, so... see ya...

 

[Dallas147]

Hey Ladies
I am the instigator of this subject from a snooker forum in Australia. The funny part about it, it was a joke topic for me. LOL!

ps: is it still impossible for a bumble-bee to fly?

 

[adr147]

Hey Ladies
I am the instigator of this subject from a snooker forum in Australia. The funny part about it, it was a joke topic for me. LOL!

ps: is it still impossible for a bumble-bee to fly?

hey dallas - we hijacking a physics forum now, these guys don't deserve that! - of course a bumble bee can fly, just not fast enough to stop you kicking them!

 

[Dallas147]

Yes, well i see your trying for a 100 posts here to..

 

[Danger]

it was a joke topic for me. LOL!

While it might have been a joke to start with, it is actually a very interesting subject with a firm grounding in physics and is perfectly acceptable to the forums.
From a pool perspective, just think of how many non-players are reading this and might be encouraged to take up the game because of it.
Adr, you can't hijack a PF forum; only someone else's thread. Since you started this thread, there's no pirating involved. Were it contrary to forum guidelines, it would be locked or deleted.

ps: is it still impossible for a bumble-bee to fly?

The little bastards have always been able too. Early scientists didn't have the instrumentation to realize that the twisting motion of their wings imparts wingtip vortices that vastly increase the lift factor. :tongue:

 

[Dallas147]

Well, there you go...

 

[Dallas147]

Anyway, bigger tip, more spin...

 

[adr147]

While it might have been a joke to start with, it is actually a very interesting subject with a firm grounding in physics and is perfectly acceptable to the forums.
From a pool perspective, just think of how many non-players are reading this and might be encouraged to take up the game because of it.
Adr, you can't hijack a PF forum; only someone else's thread. Since you started this thread, there's no pirating involved. Were it contrary to forum guidelines, it would be locked or deleted.


The little bastards have always been able too. Early scientists didn't have the instrumentation to realize that the twisting motion of their wings imparts wingtip vortices that vastly increase the lift factor. :tongue:

ok now we really are getting technical! - 100 posts a way off here!

 

[Danger]

Well, there you go...

And according to Simpson's First Law of Location... no matter where you go, there you are.

 

[adr147]

And according to Simpson's First Law of Location... no matter where you go, there you are.

andrew's law of motion:

the speed at which you can run is directly proportional to the size of your pursuer!

 

[Danger]

ok now we really are getting technical! - 100 posts a way off here!

Okay, I'm not back-editing because you asked me not to, but once again you sneaked in while I was composing (jeez, I just mistyped that as composting, but I caught it in time).
Technical is what we do here. What were you expecting?

And if you're really desperate for posts, you can have some of mine. I've got so many of the damned things that I don't know what to do with them any more. All of the closets are full, W started stacking them up in the furnace room, there are a few kicking around on the lawn...

 

[Danger]

You are really tempting me to start back-editing again. Good quote, though.

 

[adr147]

Okay, I'm not back-editing because you asked me not to, but once again you sneaked in while I was composing (jeez, I just mistyped that as composting, but I caught it in time).
Technical is what we do here. What were you expecting?

And if you're really desperate for posts, you can have some of mine. I've got so many of the damned things that I don't know what to do with them any more. All of the closets are full, W started stacking them up in the furnace room, there are a few kicking around on the lawn...

yes but imagine this, i have lost count of the number of forums i am signed up to! - my e-mail inbox gets e-mails 24 hours a day at about 20/30 per hour of which only half are related to work!

 

[adr147]

You are really tempting me to start back-editing again. Good quote, though.

type quicker!
:tongue:

 

[adr147]

You are really tempting me to start back-editing again. Good quote, though.

actually is not a quote is my own work - during a physics class aged 15 ! i think i had about 20 of them in the end!

 

[Danger]

Hey, I used to be able to type 120 wpm on a real typewriter. Computer keyboards are too sensitive, so it slows me down. So does the arthritis. In this case, though, it's because I'm doing other things at the same time.

And even if you made it up, it's now a quote. Others will borrow it, and soon the net will be so cluttered with it that we'll all be sick of if.

 

[adr147]

Hey, I used to be able to type 120 wpm on a real typewriter. Computer keyboards are too sensitive, so it slows me down. So does the arthritis. In this case, though, it's because I'm doing other things at the same time.

And even if you made it up, it's now a quote. Others will borrow it, and soon the net will be so cluttered with it that we'll all be sick of if.

120 an hour would be hard for me! - its a bad habit we all have of doing several things at once!

 

[prasannapakkiam]

Okay. Here is my say:

In cricket, spin is achieved when the ball is in contact with the ground for a maximum amount of time - thus moist pitches and 'flighting the ball' helps. So I would think a larger tip would stay in contact with the ball for a longer period of time. This creates maximum time of contact for a good spin to occur...

 

[adr147]

Okay. Here is my say:

In cricket, spin is achieved when the ball is in contact with the ground for a maximum amount of time - thus moist pitches and 'flighting the ball' helps. So I would think a larger tip would stay in contact with the ball for a longer period of time. This creates maximum time of contact for a good spin to occur...

a larger tip is in contact for less time - a bigger tip has more of a slapping effect.

 

[prasannapakkiam]

Then it is the smaller tip (I do not play Snooker much), anyway it is all about the time spent in contact.

 

[adr147]

Then it is the smaller tip (I do not play Snooker much), anyway it is all about the time spent in contact.

maybe, although many people on here much brighter than me say it makes no difference!

 

[prasannapakkiam]

Read the book on "Physics of Ball Games". It states in Snooker, such collisions are almost elastic, thus the difference in time in contact is negligible. The only thing REALLY affecting spin, is the position upon which the ball was hit upon.

 

[adr147]

Read the book on "Physics of Ball Games". It states in Snooker, such collisions are almost elastic, thus the difference in time in contact is negligible. The only thing REALLY affecting spin, is the position upon which the ball was hit upon.

this is the point of the question! - i was hoping that someone on here would be able to give me a solid answer and all i have now are more questions!

 

[Danger]

Look at it this way:
You can initially consider the tip and the ball to be spheres of different radii. If neither deformed, there would be a single point of contact as with other spheres. The larger tip has a larger radius than the small tip. Since it does flatten under impact, that radius results in more deformed surface area in contact.
Anyhow, as I said before, personal experience indicates that the larger tip is superior for juicing the ball.

 

[adr147]

now you see months later and still no-body has proved to me in scientific terms which is better, where else can i find this information if not on a physics forum! (hint - i know as a player the answer is smaller, what i don't know is why, and by the way some of the top players in the world are waiting on snooker and pool forums for an answer!)

 

[jambaugh]

One other factor is that the tip mass will effect a deflection of the cue ball when you strike off center (i.e. apply side spin). That is to say instead of the cue ball going exactly in the direction of your stroke, it will bounce slightly to the side. The lighter the tip the less this will occur. Smaller usually means lighter in this case. For all I know that is the main issue.