Turning Math Passion into a Career: High School Drop-Out's Story

[Tenshou]

Hey, everyone I Love math.

Okay, but seriously I dropped out of high school at the beginning of my Junior year. People say that there is only one or two options for me... erm well, maybe three, these options are Army(if they will take me), Get a job(But I want a career), or enroll into a Junior College and get my GED(I don't really like this option). As you can see, I am at a tree-forked road. Well, I am not being completely honest I do know what I want to do, I want to be a mathematician. I sit around my house all day and do nothing, but math. I guess fractals have peeked my interest or something... But the more I stay here the more I grow poorer, So how can I turn this interest, this career of mine into a profession?

On another note, I will do anything to avoid my GED, I dislike school.

 

[WannabeNewton]

So how can I turn this interest, this career of mine into a profession?

On another note, I will do anything to avoid my GED, I dislike school.

I love you and all but those two statements are extremely contradictory to the point of being oxymoronic. How are you going to become a professional mathematician if you don't like school? How will you get your bachelors and masters/PhD? It's a wildly impractical mindset to have (that of disliking school) if you want to become a professional mathematician in the academic sphere.

 

[verty]

Not everyone takes to school. There may be other ways to get your GED, I mean more relaxed courses that give you more time to learn. But as I usually advise, there are tons of resources online, so if you can find out what is taught in the GED course, you can start now to get a feel for it by watching videos online or asking for book recommendations, there are study groups online, etc.

You may find that school is too demanding but easing into it works. I know for a fact that people who have trouble concentrating find school very difficult.

 

[chiro]

Hey Tenshou.

In all likelihood if you want to be a mathematician in any capacity (pure/applied/statistics/analyst/whatever) then you will need to go to university in some form.

Also keep in mind that you can, with a lot of hard work, work for yourself in many different capacities.

You also don't have to have a university education to do so: you could be a plumber, pastry chef, welder, mechanic, programmer, web-designer: the list is endless.

What you will need however is the willingness to work hard, get enough experience, and become the best you can be if you want to be self-employed. It's a different mindset and a lot of sacrifices need to be made, but you might enjoy it and it gives you a good skill-base that employees don't necessarily have.

Also if you do want to work for yourself, I wouldn't do it straight away: get educated, get experienced, and realize that there are many more careers than ones that need a university transcript.

I say the above because a lot of people think that higher education is some kind of pre-requisite for good jobs: it's not, and given you dislike school, you may want to re-think your career if you didn't enjoy high school.

I'd say the first thing you should do is research your options that are meaningful (i.e. things you enjoy, are realistic given your resources, are aware of the realities of the career, etc) and then think about what is important to you.

Doing mathematics is not always an exciting thing: like many things it can be really boring and stressful and for some that is enough to say "no thanks". Also realize that in many jobs you won't be doing what you want: you will be doing what other people want, and if they don't need you to do what they want, they probably won't hire you.

If I were you I would use your time to seriously look at different options, but don't spend too long. You are going to at some point become busy in your day to day life and having some hindsight of what you will be getting into may mean the difference between a happy life vs a miserable one.

Don't let your environment dictate who you are: if you do nothing, find a way to get a routine and become busy and involved doing things that will help you out of your situation. You will be amazed at what a simple mindset change will do for you.

Final piece of advice: treat things like an investment. You will be investing your time, money, and energy into something and you want to choose an investment that has a decent chance of getting some return on your investment.

Be aware that some investments are bad ones: examples include gambling, drug addiction, drug dealing and gang-banging. These kinds of investments are the ones you need to avoid because the investment psychology leads many people to find returns on their investment when clearly the returns are nothing but pain and misery.

Other investments are good. For example having certifications/experience in the right area are good for differentiating yourself against those without relevant experience.

For example no body can become a brain surgeon over-night: they have application, enrol-ment, legal, and educational hoops to jump through. Try finding an area where you can become the best at what you do so that you build up the kind of experience that would be difficult to gain easily.

Having something that is hard to obtain but in demand is where you are going to not only get an income, but also an income that is steady. If you try and jump on the bandwagon that everybody else is on, then you won't be any better or any wiser.

I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Tenshou]

if you want to become a professional mathematician in the academic sphere.

D: that is the truth, I have a semi-understanding of these things I mean I am currently read 5 books all on Lin Al, Calc of Differentials, a book on fractals and more D: But I feel as if I try to write a paper and throw it into some "annals of mathematics"-type journal it would get rejected with in the first look over, not having a degree is going to be tough Q~Q

Not everyone takes to school.

You may find that school is too demanding but easing into it works. I know for a fact that people who have trouble concentrating find school very difficult.

It isn't because school is too demanding, it is just because I am terrible at school and the whole academic thing >.< I mean, school dulls the mind. LOL jk, but seriously I can't get good grades, the last good grade I got was when I was in second grade. I am just completely horrible now.

 

[symbolipoint]

Continue for the high school diploma and, if still desired, use this as preparation for G.E.D. After that, attend a community college.

 

[Tenshou]

D: But there has to be an easier way, a way such that I don't have to attend college

 

[CAF123]

D: But there has to be an easier way, a way such that I don't have to attend college

Have you considered the Open University? I don't exactly know the details of enrolment and what you do, but I was working part time last week and two of the people I was working with just so happened to be doing physics. One of them was enrolled with the Open University and he said, (not sure how much of this is correct), that contact time is minimal with a tutorial like once every month and most of the material self studied. I would assume there would be an online connection too.

 

[AmazingLight]

You can make a start by writing down your thoughts of Mathematical concepts and eventually forming them into ideas which can be depicted in a written form. This way you can start by sharing them to an online community or even writing to newspapers/science journals, etc. This way you will have a job, as close as you can get to being a career, which requires no formal training. An agency might like your work in this area and then consult you for pathways from there onwards.

One of my previous maths teachers faced the same situation many years ago as you and made a small start by publishing some of his thoughts in the form of work. It took a while, but eventually he became recognised in the wider community and now gives talks and presentations about Mathematics for a living.

 

[SteamKing]

A lot of people are doing nothing at a professional level these days, so you are not alone.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks with bachelors degrees (if not graduate degrees) who are stocking shelves and flipping burgers. Trying to get anything but even the nastiest, hardest, menial job without a HS diploma or GED will be tough, as there is plenty of competition for these jobs. Similarly, the armed forces also are leery of taking anyone without at least a HS diploma. A lot of military jobs are highly technical and require special training. Even lucrative civilian trade jobs like plumbing, auto mechanics or electrician require training at some type of school.

You should check with your local adult education office and see what is required for a GED. In some locales, taking the GED test is free and you may not need to enroll in a CC or a JUCO before taking the test. There is a lot of GED test prep online which you can take at home.

These days, not everyone can stay at home and be a philosopher or a mathematician; the pay is too little and the demand is non-existent. You should start acquiring credentials and building a resume, regardless of what you plan to do to support yourself. The HS diploma or GED is only the first step.

 

[Tenshou]

CAF that idea sounds good and Amazing, you are amazing that sounds really nice, actually :D

But AmazingLight I have one question. Who would want to read a drops out's science journal?

 

[AmazingLight]

The fact is Tenshou, they do not know you're a drop out straight away. You have to build your reputation as you go along. For example: you have to start small by writing to the online community (blogs, forums etc). This is in order to get your work critiqued - a fundamental step of the process in theoretical mathematics. Then if you are able to show your effort, in due time people will respect you and eventually find some use for your skill in Mathematics. Writing for a science journal has to be the very final step of the journey. At that stage, people won't regard you as a high school drop out but someone who is able to contribute to education and mathematics in his own right.

 

[AmazingLight]

In addition to what CAF said, there is a website (www.coursera.org) that offers free courses in any discipline (maths, science, humanities etc) run by many world class universities (Stanford, Penn, Duke). Sign up only takes a few minutes and at the completion of the course you get a certificate in recognition of your achievement.

The pace is best described as "chill" because you learn at your very own rate. You only have to watch a few videos every week and answer questions in the quiz at the end of the week. The workload is minimal and only a 20 question multiple choice quiz usually

I highly suggest you check this out. .

 

[ZapperZ]

There is something not quite right here, and it calls into question on something beyond what have been written so far.

So you don't like school. So you don't do well in exams. So you haven't gotten good grades.

The question is, how exactly do you know that you are good at this? And how exactly do you know that you can perform, ON DEMAND AND UNDER A TIME CONSTRAINT, when the job demands it?

You have to admit, nothing here so far has given any indication of your accomplishment, and frankly, you are not the best qualified person to judge your ability. All I've read so far are your failures, your inabilities, and your distastes for doing certain things. There has been no indication or evaluation of what you can do or have accomplished successfully.

If you think school was tough and not to your liking, then you can expect a career in such a field to be even MORE demanding. You want to work in a university? Welcome to the tenure process. You want to do research on fields that you like? Welcome to competing for research grant. Oh, did you get some money from some funding source? Welcome to the review and evaluation process to report what you have accomplished with that money that you got!

The educational process, with all it's faults and shortcomings, isn't just the dissemination of information. It is also a practice ground for students to learn self-discipline, to work under pressure, to interact with their peers as a group, to learn more about how the field of study is run, and to produce on demand! I am currently supervising 2 graduates students and 1 undergraduate student. I try to convey to them valuable information, knowledge, and skills that you can never find or acquire in pages of a textbook or paper. This is what you will miss by thinking that you can skip the academic process.

Zz.

 

[hsetennis]

The educational process, with all it's faults and shortcomings, isn't just the dissemination of information. It is also a practice ground for students to learn self-discipline, to work under pressure, to interact with their peers as a group, to learn more about how the field of study is run, and to produce on demand! I am currently supervising 2 graduates students and 1 undergraduate student. I try to convey to them valuable information, knowledge, and skills that you can never find or acquire in pages of a textbook or paper. This is what you will miss by thinking that you can skip the academic process.

Zz.

Wow this paragraph is moving. I may cite this in a speech some day.

 

[ZapperZ]

Wow this paragraph is moving. I may cite this in a speech some day.

This shouldn't be a surprise. It is the whole reason why I wrote "So You Want To Be A Physicist" essay in the first place. There's a lot about the process, especially the educational system, which is simply part of the whole experience, but is not outlined in your classes, your textbooks, or even your instructors. There are so many valuable experiences and skills that one can acquire during one's educational years, and these are the stuff I did not want students to miss.

I try to make students not only be aware of such experiences, but also to consciously pursue and acquire them. Just guiding students in writing scientific papers, or doing practice runs for giving a talk at a scientific conference, is already something valuable that any scientists/academicians should know. You do not get such skills by simply reading a book.

Zz.

 

[Jozape]

Okay, but seriously I dropped out of high school at the beginning of my Junior year. People say that there is only one or two options for me... erm well, maybe three, these options are Army(if they will take me), Get a job(But I want a career), or enroll into a Junior College and get my GED(I don't really like this option).

The army does not prefer persons without a high school diploma or equivalent. Employers do not prefer persons without a high school diploma or equivalent. Financial aid is not available to college students without a high school diploma or equivalent, and many colleges require or prefer a student to have a high school diploma or equivalent to enroll. Your life will be easier if you obtain a GED.

On another note, I will do anything to avoid my GED, I dislike school.

A GED does not require schooling. A GED requires you to pass a test and possible pay some fees. I do not remember what I paid in total to obtain my GED, but the total I paid was less than 100 USD. I live in Maryland, so the fees may be more or less if you live in another state.

 

[QuantumCurt]

What exactly is so unappealing about getting your GED and taking college classes? I'm a high school drop out. I was a straight A student all through elementary/middle school, and held my straight A's through my freshman year of high school. Then I basically quit caring, and dropped out. I got my GED when I turned 18, and now at age 26 I'm a full time college student in a community college, majoring in physics, and planning on transferring to a university, and eventually going to grad school.

Getting your GED is simple. I didn't take any prep classes or anything like that. I just went and took the tests, and smoked them. I forget the exact costs, but it was around $100 to take all the tests.

If you didn't enjoy school in the elementary/high school vein, that doesn't mean you won't enjoy college. There is a world of difference. You get to take the classes that you want to take, and you actually get challenged by the material, because you don't have a teacher holding your hand and walking you through every type of problem you could ever possibly encounter. You are actually forced to learn on your own.

I would strongly advise you to at least get a GED. It's incredibly more difficult to find a job without having at least a high school equivalency diploma. College would also be a very good idea. While it wouldn't be impossible to work as a mathematician without having a college degree, your options are going to be very limited. There's a lot to be said for the discipline and rigor that comes with a formal mathematical education.

 

[HayleySarg]

I put a lot of stock into the cliché "don't knock it until you try it."

I know the prospect of formal education at times can be daunting. However, you'll find that the environment in community college and beyond is very different from that of high school. For one, they're not watching you like a hawk demanding you to be working at all times. That doesn't mean there is less work, actually, it's the opposite.

University work gives you more flexibility however, of when you do your work. You have more freedom. You might find you'll thrive in a small liberal arts college where you get a lot of one on one with the faculty. I know that my passion for learning increased with vigor in community college. I was fortunate to have more than a handful of helpful professors. I became good friends with a few of them.

At the end of the day, there's always a few hoops we must jump through to get to what we want. If you'd like to publish work, higher education is a hoop you'll be jumping through.

Don't put such a negative foreshadow on it. At least give it a try, even if it's not appealing. You can always audit a class. Perhaps foster a relationship with the lecturer and explain your apprehensions.

I don't think any of us like "work", but we do what we must to get to the tasty stuff.

Cheers.

 

[Tenshou]

There is something not quite right here, and it calls into question on something beyond what have been written so far.

So you don't like school. So you don't do well in exams. So you haven't gotten good grades.

The question is, how exactly do you know that you are good at this? And how exactly do you know that you can perform, ON DEMAND AND UNDER A TIME CONSTRAINT, when the job demands it?

Good at what mathematics? I never said I was good I just love it, I am not arrogant enough to say that I am or will be a good mathematician, I don't have that talent. I wish to avoid working for people even more so if I have to be their lap dog.

You have to admit, nothing here so far has given any indication of your accomplishment, and frankly, you are not the best qualified person to judge your ability. All I've read so far are your failures, your inabilities, and your distastes for doing certain things. There has been no indication or evaluation of what you can do or have accomplished successfully.

But that is it, and you are right, I don't know what I can do or have accomplished successfully, but that doesn't mean school will help me find out what I can do and what I can't do successfully. I think that is more of a self journey

I try to convey to them valuable information, knowledge, and skills that you can never find or acquire in pages of a textbook or paper. This is what you will miss by thinking that you can skip the academic process.

This is what I know, and it scares me that I will be missing this, having people to talk to and people that share an interest in what I love.

This shouldn't be a surprise. It is the whole reason why I wrote "So You Want To Be A Physicist" essay in the first place. There's a lot about the process, especially the educational system, which is simply part of the whole experience, but is not outlined in your classes, your textbooks, or even your instructors. There are so many valuable experiences and skills that one can acquire during one's educational years, and these are the stuff I did not want students to miss.

you sound like the best teacher!

I got my GED when I turned 18, and now at age 26 I'm a full time college student in a community college, majoring in physics, and planning on transferring to a university, and eventually going to grad school.

that is unappealing I want to have done something by time I am 26, well, at one point in time it was like that...

I put a lot of stock into the cliché "don't knock it until you try it."

I know the prospect of formal education at times can be daunting. However, you'll find that the environment in community college and beyond is very different from that of high school. For one, they're not watching you like a hawk demanding you to be working at all times. That doesn't mean there is less work, actually, it's the opposite.

University work gives you more flexibility however, of when you do your work. You have more freedom. You might find you'll thrive in a small liberal arts college where you get a lot of one on one with the faculty. I know that my passion for learning increased with vigor in community college. I was fortunate to have more than a handful of helpful professors. I became good friends with a few of them.

At the end of the day, there's always a few hoops we must jump through to get to what we want. If you'd like to publish work, higher education is a hoop you'll be jumping through.

Don't put such a negative foreshadow on it. At least give it a try, even if it's not appealing. You can always audit a class. Perhaps foster a relationship with the lecturer and explain your apprehensions.

Cheers.

I don't think it is possible for me to be some ones lap dog, I am not saying that I don't want to be I am saying I will do anything to avoid it, this is what I see school as grad program or not, I feel as if I go to school, then I will have to be someones lap dog, a sense of self, independence is taken from me and it is not much I can do about it, if I want to get "to the top". You know what I mean.

 

[QuantumCurt]

But that is it, and you are right, I don't know what I can do or have accomplished successfully, but that doesn't mean school will help me find out what I can do and what I can't do successfully. I think that is more of a self journey

It is definitely a self journey, but part of that self journey is going to school and exploring different areas so that you can find your passions. As others have mentioned, reading papers online and working through a textbook on your own is not a substitute for having a formal education.

This is what I know, and it scares me that I will be missing this, having people to talk to and people that share an interest in what I love.

Then why the apprehension? College is NOT like high school. Teachers aren't going to threaten you into doing anything. They'll help you succeed though, if you're willing to let them.

that is unappealing I want to have done something by time I am 26, well, at one point in time it was like that...

I don't want to sound rude, but without a formal education, it's going to be incredibly difficult to do anything "real" in mathematics. You may be able to get a grasp on some complex stuff, but you won't be able to understand it to the point that you can REALLY get it. Unless you're one of those beautiful mind, 5 year old genius doing advanced calculus kind of guys.

I don't think it is possible for me to be some ones lap dog, I am not saying that I don't want to be I am saying I will do anything to avoid it, this is what I see school as grad program or not, I feel as if I go to school, then I will have to be someones lap dog, a sense of self, independence is taken from me and it is not much I can do about it, if I want to get "to the top". You know what I mean.

This is just a conclusion that you've come to on your own. Being in college has nothing to do with being someones "lapdog." You're recalling your high school experiences, and applying them to college. In high school, the teachers hold your hand and tell you exactly what you need to do, when you need to do it, and how it should be done. In college, you don't have to do a damn thing if you don't want to. You won't get far with that mindset, but you aren't going to have anyone hovering over you making you do it. College is very free. You are able to learn in your own ways, and learn what you want to learn. Sure, in grad school you have to work with an adviser, but you're going to be doing your own research. An adivser is not going to be telling you what to do in any kind of capacity. They can give you advice, and help you to a degree...but they're not going to be holding your hand through your graduate research.

 

[HayleySarg]

I don't think it is possible for me to be some ones lap dog, I am not saying that I don't want to be I am saying I will do anything to avoid it, this is what I see school as grad program or not, I feel as if I go to school, then I will have to be someones lap dog, a sense of self, independence is taken from me and it is not much I can do about it, if I want to get "to the top". You know what I mean.

You will not be a lapdog. In fact, you will have the autonomy you seem to desire. In fact, if you're respectful,in some cases you can be seen as an equal. Obviously some professors will shrug you off, but others want to inspire the wonder in the next generation. I'm not entirely sure why you're so put off from the idea of being surrounded by fellow mathematicians? They were, and by some arguments still are, students just like you.

I understand that you want to do what you want, when you want. And you will have it, within reason. If you want the grades, that's entirely up to you. Sure, a professor who takes a liking to you may be silently disappointed if you neglect to pass their course, but they recognize that responsibility is on you.

If I may say so, and you may find this to be rude:

You're acting immature. What you see as a lap-dog future, I see as your inability to rise up to a challenge and take responsibility for your own future. The work is hard, and some of it may seem unnecessary, but it's part of the whole. And no one but you is responsible for the outcome.

 

[MarneMath]

1) Army isn't even an option for you. Even during the peak of the Iraq war, a GED was required and even then it was a waiver that had to be approved. I don't imagine many of those waivers being approved during a reduction of forces.

2)In many ways, you're already more a dog then you'll ever be with a college degree. Right now, you have no choice but to stay outside of the house. You'll never become a professional mathematician or someone contributing to science, you'll forever be someone outside of the box contributing nothing because you refused to learn your lessons and put the work towards your goals. If you don't want to do the work, then why should anyone bother making it easy just for you and only you? If you want to succeed and do something you love, get the requirements. Part of the requirements are just filters to see who really wants it.

 

[dkotschessaa]

D: But there has to be an easier way, a way such that I don't have to attend college

Actually that's backwards. The easier way would be to get over whatever hangups and prejudices you have about school, and go and get an education. Trying to do it without an education is the extremely difficult way.

-Dave K

 

[dkotschessaa]

I don't think it is possible for me to be some ones lap dog, I am not saying that I don't want to be I am saying I will do anything to avoid it, this is what I see school as grad program or not, I feel as if I go to school, then I will have to be someones lap dog, a sense of self, independence is taken from me and it is not much I can do about it, if I want to get "to the top". You know what I mean.

This is a solely a mental block on your part. It has nothing to do with the way education really works.

-Dave K

 

[micromass]

This is a solely a mental block on your part. It has nothing to do with the way education really works.

-Dave K

Very true.

But even if you were to dislike education for valid reasons. Is that a reason not to do it? You know that a few years of education might mean the difference between you obtaining your life goal of being a mathematician and obtaining nothing at all. I would just stick it out. And maybe you'll even enjoy it!

 

[dkotschessaa]

Very true.

But even if you were to dislike education for valid reasons. Is that a reason not to do it? You know that a few years of education might mean the difference between you obtaining your life goal of being a mathematician and obtaining nothing at all. I would just stick it out. And maybe you'll even enjoy it!

I can attest to this also (which is why I'm being a bit hard on Tenshou ), since I had a lot of valid reasons not to go to school. I have been in and out of it, and I love it now.

My attitude was just as bad or worse than Tenshou. I used to refer to college as "the academic biosphere project." I thought they were self contained zones where students and faculty shut off from the "real world" (where is that anyway?) and which simply created more professors and self replicated.

I used to say that teachers were failures at "real life" (what's that, anyway?) and so decided to teach instead of work.

So I worked in the "real world" for 10 years, but always hungry to learn something. I read a lot of books, but never really attained mastery in anything because I wanted to do everything at once, and sometimes I didn't feel like doing anything at all.

Now I'm back in school and it's fantastic. One year left for a bachelor's in math. I will be 37 when I get it. (Did I mention I'm terrible at arithmetic, have ADD and working memory problems?)

So that's why I'm inviting Tenshou to suck it up, get over it, and go back to school. Because it's a silly, childish attitude. The college experience is whatever you make it out of it.

-Dave K

 

[zapz]

Theres a good quote along the lines of "successful people make a habit of being uncomfortable", basically that you need to do the things you don't necessarily want to do to end up where you want to be. Unfortunately you need to play by the rules until you're in a position to change them. Right now, no one will take you seriously without any degree and without a demonstrated work ethic. Theres no easy way.

 

[QuantumCurt]

There's been a lot of good advice given in this thread. As I said earlier in the thread, I dropped out of high school because I basically quit caring. I spent basically all of the years between then, and the time that I started college, carrying the attitude that a college education was pointless, and that I didn't need it to accomplish my goals. I viewed going to college as "giving into the man" and just giving up and becoming another "number in the system." After a while though, I realized that I missed learning things. Sure, I was constantly learning in the years that I wasn't in school. I learned how to do a lot of things. I studied pop-culture type physics in my spare time, read up a lot on evolution, astronomy, environmental science...but I never really attained an actual "working" knowledge of any of those things.

Then I started college at age 25. My first class was a math class, and I'll never forget sitting there that first day and being completely fascinated by the simplicity, and the beauty of algebraic manipulation. That was elementary algebra, then I skipped a couple classes by self studying over winter break, and started college algebra the next fall. That was when things got really interesting.

The difference between teaching yourself a subject out of a book, and actually learning it formally in a classroom, is that a professor is going to explain to you WHY we are doing a specific thing, not just how to do it. Most books just try to drill home the main points so that you can solve the problems, but they often lack a real explanation of the theory. Without a solid knowledge of the theory behind the concept, it's difficult to do anything significant with it.

As others have said, you think there "must be an easier way than going to college," but that IS the easier way.

 

[middleCmusic]

Good at what mathematics? I never said I was good I just love it, I am not arrogant enough to say that I am or will be a good mathematician, I don't have that talent. I wish to avoid working for people even more so if I have to be their lap dog.

If you truly aren't any good at mathematics, then your work will never be in an academic journal, regardless of your work ethic or love of math. However, I'm going to assume that you're just being humble (which isn't a bad thing) and assume that you could do well in math.

One thing that I haven't heard mentioned is that it's possible you just went to a very bad school. We know very little of where you went to school - was it in an inner city district, with lots of distractions / low funding, for instance? If you did go to a crappy school (forgive the language), then your hatred of school may be justified. You said you've read through a linear algebra book and a calculus of differentials book, so I'm guessing that you don't dislike learning.

If you do like learning, and just hate having bad teachers, then college may not be the horrible place you think it will be. Plus, most of the work at the grad level (and obviously research-level) is either self-taught or learning with your peers. Yes, you go to lectures in undergrad, but if you really work hard, it probably won't affect your grades too much if you don't attend. So what you need to determine is whether you like math enough to do it all the time. That is what it will take to succeed given your desires and your situation. Also, perhaps you could post some of your worked problems on here, so that we could help you judge whether you're understanding the material. That would be a good first step to knowing whether you're any good at math, and whether it makes sense for you to go down the incredibly long, hard road that is a PhD in mathematics.

This is what I know, and it scares me that I will be missing this, having people to talk to and people that share an interest in what I love.

There is also of course the possibility of just doing math on the side and having a secondary job that you don't like very much. Einstein of course worked at a patent office when he wrote some of his early groundbreaking stuff. So if you can find a fairly well-paying job that allows you that freedom, it may be worth the annoyance of working such a job. But to rise to fame from that situation these days, you really have to be a genius among geniuses. Having a PhD would make things much easier.

 

[Tenshou]

reading papers online and working through a textbook on your own is not a substitute for having a formal education. Then why the apprehension? College is NOT like high school. Teachers aren't going to threaten you into doing anything.

I don't want to sound rude, but without a formal education, it's going to be incredibly difficult to do anything "real" in mathematics. This is just a conclusion that you've come to on your own. Being in college has nothing to do with being someones "lapdog." You're recalling your high school experiences... In college, you don't have to do a damn thing if you don't want to. You won't get far with that mindset...

All of this may be true, and I know for a fact I won't be taken seriously, unless I am like the guy (Zhang Yitang) who found that there exist primes which are at least 70million a part. But the lap dog is not some delusional fallacy, I feel as if... In fact I know that there will come a time when I am in a personality clash with one of the professors this has happened for the 3 years that I had my high school career. Every year there was at least one "teacher" who I couldn't get along with and I would fix the problem by skipping the class, but when you are on the verge of becoming truant you should move. Watch this This is, in some cases, similar to what I have experienced in high school.

You will not be a lapdog... I'm not entirely sure why you're so put off from the idea of being surrounded by fellow mathematicians?

I understand that you want to do what you want, when you want. And you will have it, within reason. If you want the grades, that's entirely up to you. Sure, a professor who takes a liking to you may be silently disappointed if you neglect to pass their course, but they recognize that responsibility is on you.

If I may say so, and you may find this to be rude:

You're acting immature. What you see as a lap-dog future, I see as your inability to rise up to a challenge and take responsibility for your own future. The work is hard, and some of it may seem unnecessary, but it's part of the whole. And no one but you is responsible for the outcome.

I get your point, but I have one thing to say... maybe two, Are you in graduate school? And have you ever seen the movie good will hunting? If you are in graduate school, then you may know what it is like to have an adviser, which is, with all due respect a dick (pardon my language, and refer to the link), but if you have seen the movie good will hunting and you see the kid, who isn't as prodigious as Will, gets sent off for some coffee and walks away like a sad dog while they begin their discussion in mathematics. Yes, I do know this is a movie but sending him away like that as if the mathematics would be over his head or something. you know what I mean?

2)In many ways, you're already more a dog then you'll ever be with a college degree. You'll never become a professional mathematician or someone contributing to science, you'll forever be someone outside of the box contributing nothing because you refused to learn your lessons and put the work towards your goals. If you don't want to do the work, then why should anyone bother making it easy just for you and only you? If you want to succeed and do something you love, get the requirements. Part of the requirements are just filters to see who really wants it.

Parts those requirements seem like complacency test... I know I won't be, or even be able to contribute to mainstream mathematics, unless I get a lucky break as Zhang Yitang did. Just because one goes to school doesn't mean they didn't put the work into achieve their goals.

There's a good quote along the lines of "successful people make a habit of being uncomfortable", basically that you need to do the things you don't necessarily want to do to end up where you want to be. Unfortunately, you need to play by the rules until you're in a position to change them. Right now, no one will take you seriously without any degree and without a demonstrated work ethic. There's no easy way.

This is true. And you are right, also I think I will take that quote to heart, it is rather inspiring.

...As I said earlier in the thread, I dropped out of high school because I basically quit caring... I viewed going to college as "giving into the man" ... "number in the system."

As others have said, you think there "must be an easier way than going to college," but that IS the easier way.

It isn't that I quit caring, it is I don't like being pushed around just because I refuse to acquiesce to that authoritarian regime of the schooling system. Ah, giving into the man. In honesty, I don't believe that it is like that. I just feel that if people could truly view me as equal without me having to waive some degree of certification in their face saying: Yes, this good dog was trained by the best. It seems degrading, and even more for those authoritarians to do that to get what they want. It is sad to say, but this has made me believe that it may be the only way. There is no easy way in this world.

If you truly aren't any good at mathematics, then your work will never be in an academic journal, regardless of your work ethic or love of math. However, I'm going to assume that you're just being humble (which isn't a bad thing) and assume that you could do well in math.

One thing that I haven't heard mentioned is that it's possible you just went to a very bad school. We know very little of where you went to school - was it in an inner city district, with lots of distractions / low funding, for instance? If you did go to a crappy school (forgive the language)...

If you do like learning, and just hate having bad teachers... So what you need to determine is whether you like math enough to do it all the time. That is what it will take to succeed given your desires and your situation. Also, perhaps you could post some of your worked problems on here, so that we could help you judge whether you're understanding the material. That would be a good first step to knowing whether you're any good at math, and whether it makes sense for you to go down the incredibly long, hard road that is a PhD in mathematics.

There is also of course the possibility of just doing math on the side and having a secondary job that you don't like very much. Einstein of course worked at a patent office when he wrote some of his early groundbreaking stuff. So, if you can find a fairly well-paying job that allows you that freedom, it may be worth the annoyance of working such a job. But to rise to fame from that situation these days, you really have to be a genius among geniuses. Having a PhD would make things much easier.

The job thing sounds pretty useful I think, but I still need the GED as Marne has stated. Oh, believe me I do Loath those bad teachers; that sounds like a plan to do, I mean posting some of the mathematics on here :)

Thanks everyone, I think it is true now, that I need a high school diploma or equivalent :( this is unfair and sucks, but that is the only way I have a possibility to get a job and go to college. I have to do it the hard way unfortunately :(

 

[meanrev]

It isn't that I quit caring, it is I don't like being pushed around just because I refuse to acquiesce to that authoritarian regime of the schooling system. Ah, giving into the man. In honesty, I don't believe that it is like that. I just feel that if people could truly view me as equal without me having to waive some degree of certification in their face saying: Yes, this good dog was trained by the best. It seems degrading, and even more for those authoritarians to do that to get what they want. It is sad to say, but this has made me believe that it may be the only way. There is no easy way in this world.

Would you trust a surgeon who doesn't have a medical school degree? A defense counsel who doesn't have a law school degree? An aircraft engineer who doesn't have a high school diploma? A mathematician who doesn't have a high school mathematics certification?

I exaggerate this somewhat, as the society we're in is slightly more accepting of uneducated mathematicians than uneducated surgeons. But certification is something that almost everyone needs, and finding an exception to that rule is nearly impossible - if you intend to find one, then you have to count on your own judgment and luck for most of the time, because PF can hardly help you. I dropped out too, but here were some areas where being a dropout stung:

- When I set up meetings with startup and securities lawyers, they wanted to know my educational background. These guys like to 'pre-qualify' you, i.e. make sure you're worth their time before giving you a meeting.
- The algorithms that decide your credit score and acceptance/denial for an apartment lease application take into account what people with your educational background have done instead of what you have done with your educational background. This is faulty and will not give you a fair assessment.
- When I met potential investors, they wanted to know if I had a B.Sc., B.A. or Ph.D.
- When I tried to employ people, they wanted to know what I knew that would make them gladly take my instructions.
- When you come of a certain age, you really start to desire the attention of the opposite (or same, depending on your orientation) sex. Your chances deteriorate without a degree.
- Some countries have strict restrictions on issuing entry visas to people without degrees.
- There are certain professional licenses that require a degree before you sit for your exams. An example from my field of work is the CFA. You need a bachelor's at the minimum, otherwise you must have worked at a broker dealer or equivalent for 4 years to exempt this requirement. Chances are, you can't do the latter without a bachelor's anyway. There are workarounds like the Series 65, but this is for another topic.

I'm a little better off than you since I dropped out of college, not high school. And I also had the fortune of dropping out of a selective college that people assumed meant a good thing if you had dropped out. I also had the fortune of dropping out to work on something easily monetizable.

I guess my advice is:

1. You have very little reason and arguing power to drop out now.
2. If you still decide to stay as a dropout, an entropy clock starts to tick at that very moment and your likelihood of failure spontaneously increases which each passing second. The only way to negate this is to put a lot of effort into undoing it. In other words, you have very little time, spend it wisely, and try to avoid forum room confrontations/arguments.

Good luck. Feel free to message me if you think my advice would be useful, but I rarely have time to answer my PMs.

 

[middleCmusic]

Also, doesn't Zhang have a PhD? I thought he just ended up working at a Subway due to some bad luck.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Thanks everyone, I think it is true now, that I need a high school diploma or equivalent :( this is unfair and sucks, but that is the only way I have a possibility to get a job and go to college. I have to do it the hard way unfortunately :(

Tenshou, I think once you get there you're actually going to love it. A lot of my prejudices, which were very similar to yours, vanished when I actually started going to school. When you get to study something you really love, it's a joy, even when it's difficult.

As for the authority thing... I personally have no respect for authority in terms of title alone. But I have enormous respect for what people have *done*. Think of it that way. Math professors don't typically get their jobs on charm and a few good connections. They got there by doing some serious work, and I think you should respect this.

That being said, of course some are complete a-holes. But at least I've been lucky enough not to have any. (The most crotchety professors at my university are in the chemistry department. I don't know why.)

You have some degree of hiring-firing power. You can review professors before you sign up for a class and you can drop them when they don't work out. Sometimes you can't. Either way, they're working for you. You're paying them. And if you are really interested in the subject (it's safe to say you are, by your posts)) then they will be glad to help you. They are your paid consultants. Please respect them and heed their advice.

Please also do not compare your high school experiences to college experiences. High school teachers have to babysit a bit. It's expected in college that you are an adult, and so there's much less of a behavior authority thing there. If you disagree with your professor, you can do so respectfully and professionally. If they are way out of line (violating their own policies or the schools, abusing students in some way, etc) then there are channels for that. You will be taken seriously when you show serious interest, which I think isn't a problem.

Anyway, go to school, be awesome. You won't regret it.

-Dave K

 

[QuantumCurt]

You're still comparing high school to college, which isn't even a logical comparison to make. There is an entire world of differences between the two.

Sure, you can have plenty of conflicts of personality with high school teachers, but in college you rarely even have time to develop these types of conflicts. You typically only really get to know a professor if you do have common ground. You're not forced to take classes that you find completely pointless, because you get to pick your own classes. The professors are not there to babysit you like they are in high school...they're there to give you a lecture about a topic.

You're unfairly judging college. You've never been to college, so how can you judge whether or not you'd like it? And your resistance to getting your GED seems a bit ridiculous to me. You don't even have to take classes to get it. It's a matter of paying a nominal fee, and sitting for the tests. I got mine 3 years after dropping out of high school, and I never had to take any remedial classes or anything like that for it. I just went in and took the tests, and smoked them. It was no problem at all. Simply having a GED opens up a lot more possibilities jobwise. Even places like fast food restaurants and factories generally don't want to hire anyone without a high school equivalency. How difficult do you think it would be to get regarded as a credible mathematician, without even having a high school equivalency? You seem like an intelligent person, so taking the GED tests should be a cakewalk.

Seriously though, at least give college a shot. Take a semester at a community college, and go into it with an open mind. It may turn out that you do hate it. If that's the case, you can either stick it out anyway, or drop out. However, you may also find that it isn't at all what you're expecting, and end up loving it.

If you're basing your idea of the "lap dog" mentality on a movie, then you are not seeing the reality of college. Sure, when you're in a PhD program, you may be regarded as something of an "inferior" by advisory staff, but that's because you are. They are vastly farther along in their education than you are. "Inferior" is a bit of a misnomer here though. Being sent off to get some coffee because you "can't handle big boy talk?" Really? Again, if you're basing this perception on a scene in a movie, you should probably throw that perception out. Grad students are generally very well respected even by their advisers. They aren't seen as some nuisance that the adviser has no choice but to deal with. They are seen as bright young minds, that the adviser has the privilege of helping.