How bright are radio and other EM signals?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the "brightness" of man-made electromagnetic (EM) signals, particularly radio waves, and how they compare to visible light sources. Participants explore the energy that can be harvested from various EM signals, including radio, television, cellular, and WiFi signals.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how "bright" man-made EM signals would appear if they were in the visible range, asking whether they would be barely visible or as bright as the daytime sky.
  • Another participant notes that the power of radio waves varies significantly depending on the source, indicating that while some sources can be very powerful, most ambient radio waves are weak and yield little energy for harvesting.
  • A participant provides a comparison of power density, stating that sunlight has a power density of about 1500 watts per square meter, while a UHF TV transmitter 10 km away has a power density of about 0.0008 watts per square meter.
  • One participant suggests that the perceived color of EM signals could change based on the observer's speed, hinting at relativistic effects.
  • Another participant clarifies that brightness is related to how emitted power is distributed in angle, using the example of a laser versus an incandescent bulb to illustrate this point.
  • A later reply discusses the effective radiated power (ERP) of TV transmitters, explaining how antenna design affects the distribution of power and signal strength.
  • One participant raises a question about the definition of the Solar Constant and whether radiant intensity is being considered in the discussion.
  • A question is posed regarding the limits of intensity for electromagnetic radiation.
  • Another participant affirms that there is indeed a limit to how intense electromagnetic radiation can be.
  • A request for clarification on the units of "brightness" and "intensity" is made, emphasizing the need to define these terms in the context of the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the concepts of brightness and intensity, with some clarifications and challenges to definitions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific definitions and implications of brightness in relation to EM signals.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the definitions of brightness and intensity, as well as the context in which power densities are compared. The discussion does not resolve these ambiguities.

CosmicVoyager
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How "bright" are radio and other EM signals?

Greetings,

I am wondering how "bright" man made EM signals such as radio are. That is, if they were in the visible range, how would they compare to visible light sources? Would they be barely visible? Would they be daytime sky bright in every direction?

I am also wondering how much energy could be harvested from radio, television, cellular, and WiFi signals.

Here is a new device that charges a battery from WiFi signals:
http://www.ohgizmo.com/2010/01/09/ces2010-rca-airnergy-charger-harvests-electricity-from-wifi/

Thanks
 
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It really depends on the source. Radio waves can be VERY poweful (standing in front of a radar antenna transmisting at full intensity can potentially be a very bad idea).
That said, the radio waves we have around us all the time are usually quite weak meaning the amount of energy you could extract from them is very small (unless you happen to live right next to a big transmitter, that is)
 


The power density of sunlight, on a surface facing broadside to the sun, is typically about 1500 watts per square meter.

The power density of radio waves on the same surface facing towards a 1000-kW UHF TV transmitter 10 km away (for which a 20-cm circular loop antenna will give you a good picture on your TV) is about 0.0008 watts per square meter.

(1000 kW is the maximum allowable "effective radiated power" (ERP) for a commercial UHF TV station in the USA, by the way. This is for digital TV; analog UHF stations could go up to 5000 kW.)
 
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you could make them any color you wanted depending on how fast you are going .
 


One minor detail: the 'brightness' of a source is also a measure of how the emitted power is distributed in angle. That is, a 1 mW laser can be much brighter than a 100W light bulb because the laser light is emitted into a small solid angle while the incandescent bulb emits (essentially) isotropically.
 


Good point. In my TV station example, the actual transmitter power output (TPO) might be something like 35 kW. The transmitter's antenna directs most of this power more or less horizontally so as not to waste energy (and the station's power bill) on broadcasting the Simpsons up into outer space or down into the ground near the transmitter tower.

The effective radiated power (ERP), 1000 kW in my example, is the power that the transmitter would have to produce, if the antenna were completely isotropic, in order to produce the same signal strength at a receiver located some distance away horizontally.
 


Mr. Bell, with respect, the Solar Constant is defined outside the atmosphere.

Are we considering Radiant Intensity here, W sr^-1?
 


Is there a limit as to how intense electromagnetic radiation can be?
 


yes .
 
  • #10


Please provide some units for your 'brightness' and 'intensity', please?

Brightness may refer only to the physiological response to luminance. What are we considering here?
 

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