How Can Fermat's Principle Prove the Second Law of Reflection?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around using Fermat's principle to prove the second law of reflection, which states that the incident ray, reflected ray, and normal ray all lie in a single plane. Participants explore the theoretical and mathematical approaches to this proof.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks to prove the second law of reflection using Fermat's principle but is unsure how to begin.
  • Another participant suggests that Fermat's principle implies light follows the path of least time and recommends fixing points for the incident and reflected rays while varying the point of reflection.
  • A participant describes using the three-variable Pythagorean theorem and taking derivatives to analyze the time taken for light to travel, noting discrepancies in their results regarding minima in the derivative of time graph.
  • Another participant questions the correctness of the derivative calculations and suggests checking against known answers, while also expressing confusion over the lack of labels in the diagrams provided.
  • Concerns are raised about specific values in the equations presented, indicating potential issues with the geometry used in the analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correctness of the mathematical approach or the calculations involved. There are differing views on the validity of the derivative results and the clarity of the diagrams.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential errors in the derivative calculations, unclear diagram labeling, and assumptions regarding the geometry used in the analysis.

deltafee
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Hi, I am trying to prove the second law of reflection using fermat's principle and I am not entirely sure how to start it.
By the way the second law of reflection is: The incident ray, reflect ray and normal ray all lie in a single plane.
 
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Fermat's principle - light follows path of least time?
You do it pretty much the same way as you would for the first rule and for Snell's law... fix a point that the incedent ray passes through, and another that the reflected ray passes through, but vary the point of reflection (constrained by the first law).
 
Yeah I used the three variable Pythagorean Theorem and than took the derivative and than placed values for x and y so I could graph it.

Here's the typed worksheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/77575413/F.pdf

on the second page I have the graphs of Time and the derivative of Time and as you can see I don't get a minimum in the derivative of time graph, but I get a minimum on the time graph. So I am really not sure what I did wrong.

Oh by the way just to make it easier to see the graph I left the value of c out from the equation.
 
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It looks like at least the derivative is wrong.
You realize you can check your calculations against the actual answer because you know it already right?
I don't get a minimum in the derivative of time graph, but I get a minimum on the time graph.
example: y=x^2 has a minimum, but the derivative function y'=2x does not have a minimum.

I don't follow what you have done though - i.e.
The diagram at the top of the first page has no labels.

That 1/2c looks a little suspect. Comes from the 2d in the first line - but since there are no labels on the diagram I have no idea if it is OK or not.

I see you have written:$$\frac{1}{2c}\left [ \frac{10+z}{\sqrt{58}+z^2}+\frac{z-6}{\sqrt{106}+(20-z)^2} \right ]$$ for both ##T## and ##T^\prime##.
(Last equation page 1, and top pf page 3).

I'm surprised you didn't try for a simpler geometry.
 

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