I How can we quickly locate an avalanche victim using technical tools?

[hagopbul]

TL;DR Summary

Using classical methods to locate an avalanche victim

Hello all:

Good day

There is news of trishul climbing incident , where the climber was victim of avalanche on a 5000 m , if we know the origin point of the avalanche and the point of the camp and the end point of the avalanche how could we locate the possible location, of the victim ,?

 

[berkeman]

Dogs maybe. Or if they have an emergency beacon on them, you might be able to narrow the search.

What have you found in your Google search so far?

 

[PeroK]

In some places "transceivers" are mandatory for traveling in avalanche prone areas. The main tool for finding a victim is a probe, which is just a long stick you can poke into the snow.

 

[anorlunda]

The victim might get stuck on some object in the ground. So his possible locations begin at his initial location and end at the leading edge of the avalanche. That is too big an area to be much help in rapid location.

 

[Paul Colby]

Locate my phone like app?

 

[hagopbul]

The victim is Peter wittek
I was thinking of simulation of his body movement when he is suprised by the avalanche that would narrow things down maybe

 

[hutchphd]

I believe an avalanche represents turbulent flow of a Non Newtonian fluid and therefore a challenge to model and quite dependent on temperature and humidity. Other than general conclusions like "the victim will be below her starting point in a some vague cone of probability" I think there is not much predictive work to be done. Please correct me if I am overstating this...

 

[hagopbul]

I believe an avalanche represents turbulent flow of a Non Newtonian fluid and therefore a challenge to model and quite dependent on temperature and humidity. Other than general conclusions like "the victim will be below her starting point in a some vague cone of probability" I think there is not much predictive work to be done. Please correct me if I am overstating this...

But even with this con ,wouldn't that help a little ? Instead of simulating the avalanche we simulate his body movement wouldn't that narrow things down a little ?

Best
Hagop

 

[hagopbul]

Locate my phone like app?

Couldn't use that method , it is in the hemalaya 5000 m

We could use GSM detectors but I am not sure if that would help I don't know if the signal are able to penetrate if we considered he is under the ground . And don't know if the phone is still on

If he is above the ground infrared will be enough to find him

Any other ideas

Best
H

 

[hutchphd]

I think there are unknowables (ground features, snow inhomogeneity,..) that would completely dominate the result. But:

1. I have not done the calculation
2. am not an expert in snow
3. do not think it a foolish notion!

 

[hagopbul]

Thank you
If we can provide the values of that variables, who can simulate it ?

 

[hagopbul]

In some places "transceivers" are mandatory for traveling in avalanche prone areas. The main tool for finding a victim is a probe, which is just a long stick you can poke into the snow.

Some say he don't have one on him

 

[Paul Colby]

Snow is pure water and low loss to RF. GPS should work fine for 5000m. WiFi sniffer (directional antenna) could be used to sniff GPS location of the phone. Once located get some shovels and cadaver dogs. Problem solved.

[edit] so I assume this was a rhetorical question and you're not desperately trying to find someone real time. If it isn't then well, PF is quick but not that quick.

 

[PeroK]

Snow is pure water and low loss to RF. GPS should work fine for 5000m. WiFi sniffer (directional antenna) could be used to sniff GPS location of the phone. Once located get some shovels and cadaver dogs. Problem solved.

Here's a review of cellphone apps for avalanche rescue.

https://mountaintracks.co.uk/blog/avalanche-search-and-rescue-apps

 

[Vanadium 50]

If it isn't then well, PF is quick but not that quick.

This happened Sunday. It's Friday.

 

[hutchphd]

If we can provide the values of that variables, who can simulate it ?

Here is one recent paper for instance. Nontrivial calculations!

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05181-w?utm_source=commission_junction&utm_medium=a

 

[Paul Colby]

This happened Sunday. It's Friday.

Then it's unlikely we'll be able to write an app, assemble the high gain Yagi, Get the app on the app store, go back in time and advertise the app and hope the effected people buy it.

 

[hagopbul]

Snow is pure water and low loss to RF. GPS should work fine for 5000m. WiFi sniffer (directional antenna) could be used to sniff GPS location of the phone. Once located get some shovels and cadaver dogs. Problem solved.

[edit] so I assume this was a rhetorical question and you're not desperately trying to find someone real time. If it isn't then well, PF is quick but not that quick.

Yes I and others are trying to find him

 

[russ_watters]

But even with this con ,wouldn't that help a little ? Instead of simulating the avalanche we simulate his body movement wouldn't that narrow things down a little ?

Not really, no. Avalanches are extremely chaotic, and there is no way to predict with any sort of accuracy where a person ended-up in one.

 

[berkeman]

Yes I and others are trying to find him

Unfortunately, avalanche victims typically are only able to survive for a few minutes. I'm pretty sure that this is a recovery operation now, and not a rescue mission. Sorry.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962062

 

[hagopbul]

His friends survived , but he is no were to be found , that why they have some hope ,I don't know if he is under the ice or wondering in the region lost between the mountains.

 

[hagopbul]

Can we use infrared detectors , to locate him if he is under the Ice ?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Can we use infrared detectors , to locate him if he is under the Ice ?

After 6 days of being under the ice, I am afraid he's at the same temperature of as the ice. As berkeman says, at this point it is a recovery operation.

 

[hagopbul]

I came up with the following ideas :

Gpr ground penetrating radar
Sonar
Cellphone ping
Infrared
NFC if it is passive I am not sure if NFC can be used as RFID
X-ray

What do you think
If this efforts are realistic in recovering him or rescuing him
That will be great for future rescue missions

Best
Hagop

 

[PeroK]

I came up with the following ideas :

Gpr ground penetrating radar
Sonar
Cellphone ping
Infrared
NFC if it is passive I am not sure if NFC can be used as RFID
X-ray

What do you think
If this efforts are realistic in recovering him or rescuing him
That will be great for future rescue missions

Best
Hagop

This isn't a physics question. This is a question for experienced avalanche search and rescue teams. See for example the advice here:

https://www.alpineskiclub.org.uk/safety/search-and-rescue/

 

[hagopbul]

This isn't a physics question. This is a question for experienced avalanche search and rescue teams. See for example the advice here:

I know we are not the ones doing the search there is search team on the ground , we are coming up with technical ideas to be fast deployed to help locate him , for example the cell phone , or the cell phone NFC