- #36
mikeph
- 1,235
- 18
Studiot said:Where in Newtons first or second law does it say that there have to be two bodies?
Newton's law of Gravitation, there must be at least two bodies for one to feel a gravitational force.
Studiot said:Where in Newtons first or second law does it say that there have to be two bodies?
MikeyW said:If an electron radiates, it has a force on it, but where is the opposing force? Either (1) you attribute this to the radiation, and I don't see how, or (2) you assume the radiation ultimately interacts with a second electron, but the radiation has a finite travel time so you no longer have that net force is instantaneously conserved.
With the Biot-Savart law, what if the two conductors are moved apart?
Dadface said:The force on each one decreases by the same amount.
Newton's law of Gravitation, there must be at least two bodies for one to feel a gravitational force.
Studiot said:My version of the first two does not mention the number of particles and the third is usually applied via a free body diagram in which the interaction with the rest of the universe is summed to one force acting across the boundary.
MikeyW said:But if they are 1 light year apart and one cable is cut the current stops and there is no force, but the other one is still feeling the force for another year. Newton's third law fails during that year.
my statementIf I pump up a bicycle tyre I am adding to its internal energy.
This energy is still there when I stop pumping and can be recovered at some later time.
That is what is meant by conservation of energy.
If I whirl a stone around my head on a string, there are forces acting and there is euqilibrium in the balance of tension and inertial force.
If I cut the string the forces cease and cannot be recovered.
There is no conservation of force.
By the way what about D'Alembert's principle and moments?
Forces have both direct and indirect effects.
Would you also conserve these?
There is no coresponding pair for energy.
your replyAdding all the forces together you arrive at 0 N before and after you cut the string,
d/dt of the sum of forces = 0 so the net force is conserved.
my statementWhere in Newtons first or second law does it say that there have to be two bodies?
your replyNewton's law of Gravitation, there must be at least two bodies for one to feel a gravitational force.
my statement……….Newton had three laws.……….. I can successfully apply any or all of these laws to a free body system comprising my particle…………
your replyYou would never use Newton's third law in such a way because that gives you no information.
You are talking about a particle falling in a gravitational field. Well I am saying the second part of the force which completes the conservation is outside your realm of consideration- but it must exist somewhere in the universe for there to be a gravitational field! So let's consider that as well and the conservation is sustained.
polaris12 said:I just want to mention I lost track of what you guys were talking about a while ago. Yea, I don't get what you guys are debating anymore.
I don't know if it is a "stronger" statement, but it is a different statement.MikeyW said:The forces vary but their sum does not.
Applying Newton's 3rd law at every instant should give sum(Force vectors) = 0 at every time. Isn't this a stronger statement than normal conservation?
gabbagabbahey said:Phrak, what if the system contains momentum-carrying fields? What happens to [itex]\sum_{i} \textbf{p}_i[/itex] when momentum is transferred from a field to a particle?
gabbagabbahey said:Phrak, you haven't addressed my question yet: what happens when there are momentum carrying fields involved?
If [itex]\sum_i\textbf{p}_i[/itex] represents the sum of the momenta of all particles in a closed system, it needn't be constant, since fields can transfer momentum to particles. Momentum for the system will still be conserved, but only when you include the momentum in the fields (which will be an integral of a momentum density). However, when fields are present (even if you include their sources in your system), the sum of the forces on all the particles in a system need not by zero, even if momentum is conserved .
Consider a field propagating at finite speed (like light) towards a stationary particle. Prior to the interaction of the field and the particle, there are no forces acting on either and the only momentum is stored in the field. After the two interact, some momentum may be transferred to the particle, and hence some force was exerted on it. Momentum is conserved in this interaction, but force is not since there is no equal and opposite force exerted on the field (which is presumed massless).