How does light lose energy as it travels over distance?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of how light loses energy as it travels over distance, particularly in the context of the expanding universe and redshift phenomena. Participants explore theoretical implications, observational effects, and the nature of energy in relation to light and cosmic expansion.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that light's wavelength increases with distance due to the expansion of the universe, leading to a decrease in energy, prompting questions about where that energy goes.
  • Others argue that energy is not lost but rather that our observations of light change due to effects like the Doppler effect, which alters perceived frequency and intensity based on distance.
  • A participant suggests that the energy of photons does not change, while another challenges this by stating that photons from the cosmic microwave background are less energetic in our reference frame compared to their original emission.
  • One viewpoint posits that the universe's expansion might be a coordinate expansion rather than a physical one, implying that light does not undergo change but rather that the measurement systems evolve over time.
  • Another participant raises the analogy of waves in a medium, suggesting that energy dissipation could be analogous to how disturbances in a medium propagate and dissipate over time.
  • Questions are raised about the need for additional photons to maintain energy levels in the context of light waves, indicating uncertainty about the mechanics of energy conservation in this scenario.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on whether light loses energy as it travels and how this relates to cosmic expansion. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus reached on the nature of energy loss or conservation in the context of light and the universe's expansion.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various models and analogies, but there are limitations in assumptions regarding the nature of energy, the definition of redshift, and the implications of cosmic expansion. Unresolved mathematical steps and dependencies on definitions are present in the discussion.

scijeebus
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How does light "lose" energy as it travels over distance?

So the universe is said to be expanding because light's wavelength is spreading out at a greater rate per greater distance, but with the wavelength becomes longer, the energy becomes smaller, so where is that energy going? How is it actually being lost?
 
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I don't think energy is being lost I think our observations of it become different. For instance when moving closer to a light source
the light becomes stronger and the frequency we observe becomes larger. The inverse happens when we move further away from
the light source. The doppler effect makes it seem like the light is changing frequency.
 
Garry Go said:
I don't think energy is being lost I think our observations of it become different. For instance when moving closer to a light source
the light becomes stronger and the frequency we observe becomes larger. The inverse happens when we move further away from
the light source. The doppler effect makes it seem like the light is changing frequency.

Sorry Gary. This is wrong. Intensity changes with distance. Energy of photons doesn't.

The question remains: where does (did) the energy of a cosmologically redshifted photon go?

If you get on a train moving very fast and look behind you the light is also redshifted. Where did the energy go in this easier case?
 


scijeebus said:
So the universe is said to be expanding because light's wavelength is spreading out at a greater rate per greater distance, but with the wavelength becomes longer, the energy becomes smaller, so where is that energy going? How is it actually being lost?
It's just dissipated via topological irregularities and obstructions in the medium. Why do originally very localized disturbances (say, dropping a pebble into a pond of water) on the surface of a pool of water disperse as they do (ie., propagate more or less omnidirectionally), and dissipate? These are examples of fundamental dynamical physical principles or laws. The evolutions of physical systems approach equilibrium.

If our universe is a finite expanding wave in some medium of unknown structure, then it's reasonable to suppose that the total energy of our universe is decreasing -- and if so, then the behavior of waves in media at less than the universal scale is in accordance with the behavior of the universal wave.
 
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Antiphon said:
Sorry Gary. This is wrong. Intensity changes with distance. Energy of photons doesn't.

Sorry my mistake I didn't mean to say that the light source itself becomes stronger (I should watch my wording more closely). Light's energy doesn't actually change.
 
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scijeebus said:
So the universe is said to be expanding because light's wavelength is spreading out at a greater rate per greater distance, but with the wavelength becomes longer, the energy becomes smaller, so where is that energy going? How is it actually being lost?
I suppose that the current consensus viewpoint is that expansion is coordinate expansion not physical expansion.
I view it that way - light that is traveling toward us does not undergo any change, it's coordinate system that changes over time i.e. measurement sticks become shorter and clocks become faster.

So the question actually should be where matter gets energy instead of where light is putting it.
 


I can see how it would work with waves, since although a wave would get longer it would also come in for a longer time so the total amount would stay the same. I have no idea how this would work with photon's since you'd need to get more of them somehow.
 
I already answered this question in https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=613451.
 


Garry Go said:
Sorry my mistake I didn't mean to say that the light source itself becomes stronger (I should watch my wording more closely). Light's energy doesn't actually change.

Actually, it does. Each photon of the cosmic microwave background is far less energetic in our reference frame than it was in the frame from which it was originally emitted, shortly after the Big Bang. Where did that energy go? How did it get lost?
 
  • #10


DLuckyE said:
I can see how it would work with waves, since although a wave would get longer it would also come in for a longer time so the total amount would stay the same. I have no idea how this would work with photon's since you'd need to get more of them somehow.

Why would you need to get more of them?
 

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