How does the Lorentz Force relate to the fringing B field of a bar magnet?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the Lorentz force and the fringing magnetic field of a bar magnet, particularly when two magnets are brought closer together. Participants explore the implications of the magnetic field's behavior, energy minimization, and the forces at play when magnets are in proximity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the attraction between the poles of a cut bar magnet is due to the increasing normal component of the magnetic field as the gap between the magnets decreases.
  • Another participant proposes that the increase in the derivative of the magnetic field (dB/dz) as the magnets approach each other is the source of the force, noting that a dipole field decreases as 1/r^3, making the derivative behave as 1/r^4.
  • A different viewpoint emphasizes energy minimization, arguing that the force direction is such that it minimizes energy in the magnetic field, with less energy present when the magnets are close together due to the density of magnetic field lines.
  • One participant challenges the initial premise, stating that the attraction is not solely due to fringing fields and that a dipole in a uniform magnetic field experiences torque rather than net force, as the forces on the poles cancel out.
  • This participant also argues that even without fringing fields, the energy minimization principle holds, as the magnetic fields of the magnets cancel each other out when close, leading to a lower energy state.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of fringing fields in the attraction between magnets, with some asserting its importance while others argue it is not necessary for the observed effects. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact mechanisms at play.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of fringing fields and uniform magnetic fields, as well as the specific conditions under which the forces and energy considerations apply.

TFH
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Preface:
If a bar magnet is cut in half, we are left with say N-S--cut--N-S allinged along the z axis. Then the S and N ends are attracted to each other. This attraction is due to the "fringing" or non-uniform B field of the poles. That is the component of the B field that is normal to the "circular" magnetizing currents creates a Lorentz force along the Z axis.

So as the S side moves closer to N (the gap is reduced) the normal component of the B field increases.



Finally My questions:

(1) Why does the magnitude of the normal component increase. Is it because the magnitude of dB/dz is larger as the gap is closed? Or because the overall magnitude of B is larger and therefore it normal component is correspoundly larger? or ?


(2) When the Magnets touch, no air gap at all, shouldn't the force go to zero since the fringing or db/dz would go to zero or be greatly reduced? But I don't think this happens because my magnets stick to my Fridge...Help!
 
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I think it would be due to the dB/dz getting larger, since that is the origin of the force. A dipole field drops off as 1/r^3, so derivative of that goes as 1/r^4. Another way to think about it is a minimization of energy in the field, since you're talking about a static situation. It takes less energy to be closer together.
 
Energy minimization is a good way to see it: the direction of the force is always such that the energy is minimized most. The energy of the magnetic field is given by the density of lines (I can be more specific if you need). When the S pole of one magnet and the N pole of the other are nearby, the lines coming out of one die in the other very soon, so there are less B lines in space, so less energy.
 
This question and answer got off on the wrong track.

The attraction between north and south bar maget ends is *not* because of fringing fields.

In general, if a bar magnet is in a uniform magnetic field, it will experience a torque and not a net force becaue the attaraction and repulsion of the two poles cancel out. A dipole (which is what a small magnet is) in a non-uniform field will experince net forces because one ond of the magnetic dipole might be getting pushed or pulled more than the other.

But the N end of an infinitely wide bar magent with no fringing fields would be attracted to the S end of a similar infinitely wide "plane" bar magnet also with no fringing fields.

It is true that energy minimization leads to the correct answer but fringing fields are not necessary in this case. As the magnets get closer together, their fields are canceling each other out. Integrated over the space near the magnets, there is less energy in the magnetic field when they are together. (The energy goes out of the magnetic field and into your hands warming up your mucles.) This would still happen even without fringing. It also explains why the magnet hold on hardest when its together- the field is smallest but gets bigger very rapidly as you pull the magnet off the fridge.
 

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