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[Cyrus]

Interesting little video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2548496593303272917&ei=a9DqSPGUMImwrQKw3cmZAQ&q=WHO+KILLED+THE+ELECTRIC+CAR

 

[OmCheeto]

Interesting little video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2548496593303272917&ei=a9DqSPGUMImwrQKw3cmZAQ&q=WHO+KILLED+THE+ELECTRIC+CAR

My brother made me watch that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F" .

I believe it was within weeks of the documentary being released that the Tesla company announced it's existence.

So I thought the whole premise of the movie was passe. It was for me a "duh, hello, are you stupid?" moment. E-cars are coming!

Yet last month I discovered that the maker of one of the best DC EV motor controllers was going out of business.

hmmm... time for part two? "Who's trying to abort the Electric Car?"

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

EV DC motors and controllers are going the way of the vacuum tube when transistors hit the market.

Granted a DC system is a simpler and cheaper system to put in, however these are its only advantages when compared to a modern AC system. Even the http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/perf_specs.php" is an AC system.

So no one is trying to abort the EV, it is just shedding an inefficient system style.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Thanks for posting that, Cyrus. I watched it last night.

I want an electric car. I tihnk it's cool that they are so quiet - but I did hear something about how they might have be made noiser so blind people would know they are coming.

 

[OmCheeto]

Thanks for posting that, Cyrus. I watched it last night.

I want an electric car. I tihnk it's cool that they are so quiet - but I did hear something about how they might have be made noiser so blind people would know they are coming.

One of the members of my electric vehicle association sent out the following link:

Frontline

HEAT
CHAPTER SEVEN
Two Instructive Lessons from the Past
While gov't must lean on business to tackle climate change, recall what happened with Clinton-Detroit's new car project, and corn-based ethanol.

I found the bit on the Volt quite hilarious.
GM had a perfectly adequate EV 10 years ago.
Now they have one that can't even make it to it's own photo-op.

 

[LightbulbSun]

I heard somewhere that a purely electric car was pretty inefficient.


Here it is: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1051323&postcount=13

 

[mgb_phys]

It's just profit.
The markup on an SUV is huge - you take a very cheap pickup truck chassis/drive train, add a cheap body and a few toys (cup holders/DVD/Satnav) and charge luxury car prices.
The markup on a european subcompact is tiny. Thats why the only ones sold in the US are premium versions like the BMW mini or SmartCar.

An electric car is the worst of all worlds - it has expensive components and tooling but is subcompact size and so unless you can sell it for twce the price based on novelty (Prius) or suddenly nobody is buying SUVs it doesn't make sense to sell them.

 

[OmCheeto]

I heard somewhere that a purely electric car was pretty inefficient.

Here it is: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1051323&postcount=13

You should make sure that the way you both define "inefficient" is the same.

1) To get decent range, they must weigh tons.

Only if you consider decent range to be hundreds of miles.
Most people commute less than 50 miles per day.
Hence, EV's don't have to weigh tons.
I have 12 vehicles: 4 cars, 5 boats, 2 bicycles, and one set of legs.
If I want to drive from Oregon to Florida and back, I'm not using my electric car.
If I want to drive back and forth the 24 miles to work, I'm not driving my 25 mpg gas car, I'm driving my 200+ mpg electric.
Cars should be looked at as tools.
Use the right one for the right job.

2) Current battery technologies are only good for perhaps 300-400 charge cycles.

Though true, it's a bit misleading. Those numbers are for lead acid batteries taken to near full discharge on every trip. By discharging the batteries only by half, you up the number to ~1000 charge cycles. True, you need twice as many batteries for a given range, but you replace them 1/3 as often. I actually advocate hybrid electrics to avoid this problem. A small 5hp diesel electric generator can kick on as soon as the batteries drop below 75% of full charge. This extends the life of the batteries to about 10 years.
The gas engine would only be required while we are waiting for the McCain battery to be developed.

The EV dude who sent out the link I listed earlier is driving a GM S-10 Electric, which was built in ~1999. He has not replaced his battery pack(NiMH).

 

[mheslep]

One of the members of my electric vehicle association sent out the following link:
I found the bit on the Volt quite hilarious.
GM had a perfectly adequate EV 10 years ago.

I don't think much of anything was adequate about the old GM EV. Range, battery life, cost, all insufficient. Wiki shows the cost was $80k to GM. Next to useless other than what GM learned from the project.

...I have 12 vehicles: 4 cars, 5 boats, 2 bicycles, and one set of legs. If I want to drive from Oregon to Florida and back, I'm not using my electric car. If I want to drive back and forth the 24 miles to work, I'm not driving my 25 mpg gas car, I'm driving my 200+ mpg electric.
Cars should be looked at as tools.
Use the right one for the right job.

Nice trick for those that can afford 4 cars. Don't expect manufacturers to produce cars with such a narrow market.

Those numbers are for lead acid batteries taken to near full discharge on every trip. By discharging the batteries only by half, you up the number to ~1000 charge cycles.

Thats two years of use. Not good enough.

True, you need twice as many batteries for a given range, but you replace them 1/3 as often. I actually advocate hybrid electrics to avoid this problem. A small 5hp diesel electric generator can kick on as soon as the batteries drop below 75% of full charge. This extends the life of the batteries to about 10 years..

5hp won't extend your range much. You need 25-30HP just to cruise down the road. And as soon as you add the diesel, you also need a fuel system, pollution controls, etc, adding additional weight that adds to the tractive load requirement. Anyway that's changing the game; this was about GM's EV, not hybrids.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The EV dude who sent out the link I listed earlier is driving a GM S-10 Electric, which was built in ~1999. He has not replaced his battery pack(NiMH).

In a word: Bull. Either he is lying, or he hardly uses the car, or his batteries only have a small fraction of the original charge capacity. There are no magic batteries.

 

[OmCheeto]

In a word: Bull. Either he is lying, or he hardly uses the car, or his batteries only have a small fraction of the original charge capacity. There are no magic batteries.

I'll ask him next Thursday.

 

[OmCheeto]

Nice trick for those that can afford 4 cars. Don't expect manufacturers to produce cars with such a narrow market.

I'm a redneck. All of those vehicles combined cost me less than $10k.
And I didn't say how many of those vehicles ran did I.

5hp won't extend your range much. You need 25-30HP just to cruise down the road. And as soon as you add the diesel, you also need a fuel system, pollution controls, etc, adding additional weight that adds to the tractive load requirement. Anyway that's changing the game; this was about GM's EV, not hybrids.

I spent Saturday analyzing my automotive efficiency.
I came up with around 5% for my daily ICE commute.

I suppose it all depends on the individual.

As I said before, cars should be viewed as tools, not penile extensions.

 

[edward]

GM sold their nickle hydride battery technology to big oil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq2D_Ts5B5g&NR=1

I have always been curious as to why GM thought it necessary to crush the EV1 vehicles when the project was halted.

 

[mheslep]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq2D_Ts5B5g&NR=1

Sounds like nonsense until the last 45 secs - 7:16

 

[OmCheeto]

GM sold their nickle hydride battery technology to big oil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq2D_Ts5B5g&NR=1

I have always been curious as to why GM thought it necessary to crush the EV1 vehicles when the project was halted.

odd.

that youtube video self-destructed after about 30 seconds...

hmmmm...

 

[OmCheeto]

In a word: Bull. Either he is lying, or he hardly uses the car, or his batteries only have a small fraction of the original charge capacity. There are no magic batteries.

I got tired of waiting for Thursday and found from his website that we are both correct:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=ppV1T_euCGZwyYfoj040LFQ&gid=2
Based on the CarFax* report and information I have collected from previous owners, here is the history of this truck that I am aware of. It was manufactured in January 1998 and started out as a fleet vehicle at Disneyland on 11/23/1998. It served Mickey in this capacity for 7 yrs. 5 mo. It was then sold to EVBones (www.evbones.com) on 05/17/2006 with 13,642 miles on it.

So yes, Mickey nursed the batteries.

Ah ha! He just responded to my email:

Subject: Re: batteries
Date: October 28, 2008 11:06:30 PM PDT

When EVBones bought it from Disney, he dropped the batteries and load tested them all. The ones that were not up to snuff were replaced with batteries salvaged from the crushed EV1s. I called Jeff from EVBones and asked him how many of my batteries (if any) were replaced, he said that he does not keep records with that level of detail but he did say that he sometimes replaces 1 or 2 (of the 26), but often none need replacing.

So, I know most (maybe all) of my batteries are original from when it was built in 1998. The replacements (if any) are from the same era.

I often simplify that story to "they are the original batteries". And I feel justified in doing so since they are NiMH batteries and there are RAV4 EVs out there with over 100,000 miles on their batteries.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Someone sent me this today:

Altair's lithium titanate battery finishes 500th full depth cycle
Posted Sep 10th 2008 at 10:12AM by Sebastian Blanco
Filed under: Emerging Technologies, EV/Plug-in

Altair Nanotechnologies announced this week that the new lithium titanate battery it is developing for the U.S. Navy has completed its 500th full depth cycle and, perhaps somewhat surprisingly, lost just one percent of its total capacity. The Navy (thanks to U.S. taxpayers) is paying Altair $2.5 million for these batteries. While not destined for any vehicles, the Navy's goal with the battery program is to reduce dependency on expensive jet fuel used in back-up turbines and, through that, to reduce carbon emissions. Altair also has a history with Phoenix Motor Cars and their all-electric SUV and SUT.

More details on the Altair and the Navy's lithium titanate battery are available here. Altair is also developing batteries for the Army's "M119 105mm lightweight gun digitization program."

 

[drankin]

One of the things to consider is winter driving. In your colder climates of the US a strictly electric car would not work. You will kill your batteries very quickly trying to stay warm long enough to get to work. A hybrid is really the only answer. But they use less fuel but not enough less to really get towards our goal of energy independence. We need a "killer-app" for transportation that keeps you warm.

 

[mgb_phys]

You could have a wood burning stove to heat the inside!

 

[Topher925]

You will kill your batteries very quickly trying to stay warm long enough to get to work. A hybrid is really the only answer. But they use less fuel but not enough less to really get towards our goal of energy independence. We need a "killer-app" for transportation that keeps you warm.

Enter the fuel cell!

"Who killed the electric car?"

I did, with the butcher knife in the atheneum.

 

[mheslep]

One of the things to consider is winter driving. In your colder climates of the US a strictly electric car would not work. You will kill your batteries very quickly trying to stay warm long enough to get to work. A hybrid is really the only answer. But they use less fuel but not enough less to really get towards our goal of energy independence. We need a "killer-app" for transportation that keeps you warm.

If one looks at the numbers you find it's not so. The motive power required by the vehicle far exceeds heating power by at least 10:1. Typically 22kW (30HP) is required to move a vehicle down level road at 60mph. One or two kW is plenty to heat the passenger compartment, and at least some of that heat can be drawn from waste heat generated by the electric motor, just as it is in an ICE. Thus if the vehicle has enough electric power and energy to propel it, it has enough to warm the passengers without a large reduction in operating time.

 

[montoyas7940]

I was day dreaming about this the other day. I decided that if the batteries were well insulated (thermally) and warmed during charging, then some of the heat could be recovered later to warm the passenger compartment.

 

[drankin]

If one looks at the numbers you find it's not so. The motive power required by the vehicle far exceeds heating power by at least 10:1. Typically 22kW (30HP) is required to move a vehicle down level road at 60mph. One or two kW is plenty to heat the passenger compartment, and at least some of that heat can be drawn from waste heat generated by the electric motor, just as it is in an ICE. Thus if the vehicle has enough electric power and energy to propel it, it has enough to warm the passengers without a large reduction in operating time.

I believe ambient temperature needs to be a factor in your equation. Driving through Duluth, MN or Fairbanks, AK in January. We needed to run our air conditioning while heating the interior in order to minimize frost forming on the INSIDE of the windshield. (That and it takes a couple of miles for the wheels to round out after sitting all night in the driveway). The heat required was everything your car could put out all while wearing a parka.

If it can work then good deal, I'm just not convinced there's also enough juice to get me to work too.

 

[mgb_phys]

Of course in Alaska you need to plug in your gas powered car's block heater anyway.
So you might as well get an EV.

 

[drankin]

Of course in Alaska you need to plug in your gas powered car's block heater anyway.
So you might as well get an EV.

That's just so you can start it up the next day.

There's a saying up there, "You want to drive south until someone asks you what the hell that plug hanging out of your grill is for, then you've gone far enough."

I'm not against EVs, I just don't think it's THE solution.

One idea I really like is satellite offices. Just an office with office cubes, phones, and internet in neighborhoods that office types from any company can go "to work" remotely. Home office works too but some people need a place away from home to really work. It could be government funded (like libraries) or at least tax benefits for companies to let their employees work at these types of remote offices.

 

[mgb_phys]

I'm not against EVs, I just don't think it's THE solution.

They have a role to replace the SUV on the 10mile per day school run but I think small engine/diesel hybrids are probably the most practical for most commuters.

 

[OmCheeto]

You could have a wood burning stove to heat the inside!

Very good!

http://www.milburn.us/myles_twete1921.htm
Owner: Myles Twete
Heater: Coal-burning foot warmer

They even solved some of the problems which we think are new ideas. Ah hahahaha!

Batteries: 2 strings of 42 volts 225 AH (Edison Nickel Iron batteries were an option). Vehicle originally was equipped with "rapid exchange" battery packs using a Milburn lift tool.

I finally got to meet Myles about 3 weeks ago.

I motored by his boat for years without realizing it was an electric vehicle. It was the inspiration for my e-boat.

 

[mathwonk]

as to the quote from dalai lama in post 25, that's what brian nichols said he thought. the tricky part is in deciding whether they are really trying to do that.

 

[edward]

The talk about heaters reminds me of the early Corvairs. They burned gasoline. They did have an advantage, nearly instant heat.

Then they switched to ducting in engine heat.

The very early Fords used ducted heat from the exhaust manifold that would melt the polish off of your shoes.

Cars in colder climates will also need defrosters. The electric resistance wire heaters in the rear windows of current vehicles draw a lot of current.

Current vehicles automatically turn on the A/C during defrost to drop the humidity. People in the Southwest absolutely have to have A/C although they somehow got along without it for fifty years.

It looks like hybrids will be the way to go for the foreseeable future.

 

[mgb_phys]

Either Merc or BMW had a residual heat storage system where the engine heated up an insulated tank of some high specific heat capacity liquid which then provided instant heat when you turned on the heater - even if the car had been sitting for a few days.

It was introduced because they built a diesel engine that was so efficent that it took too long to generate enough waste heat to heat up the cabin in cold weather.

 

[russ_watters]

I believe ambient temperature needs to be a factor in your equation. Driving through Duluth, MN or Fairbanks, AK in January. We needed to run our air conditioning while heating the interior in order to minimize frost forming on the INSIDE of the windshield.

You probably just need to make sure you have enough fresh air coming into avoid that.

 

[mgb_phys]

If it's wet enough or cold enough that the windscreen is below the dew point it's better to use the AC to dry the recirculated air inside the car rather than try and warm the screen or pull in wetter air from outside.

 

[mheslep]

...I'm not against EVs, I just don't think it's THE solution...

Neither do I for the near future, but PHEV's will likely have a big impact quite soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid

 

[russ_watters]

If it's wet enough or cold enough that the windscreen is below the dew point it's better to use the AC to dry the recirculated air inside the car rather than try and warm the screen or pull in wetter air from outside.

The windscreen cannot be below the outside dew point in winter and the air you bring in from outside is never wetter than the air inside when the AC is off.

In addition, due to the particulars of the thermodynamic cycle, the air conditioning cannot cool the air down below about 45 F, so if the outside air is below 45 F, it is guaranteed to be drier than the air the AC is making.

 

[drankin]

The windscreen cannot be below the outside dew point in winter and the air you bring in from outside is never wetter than the air inside when the AC is off.

In addition, due to the particulars of the thermodynamic cycle, the air conditioning cannot cool the air down below about 45 F, so if the outside air is below 45 F, it is guaranteed to be drier than the air the AC is making.

Russ, I'm not saying you aren't correct but it was common knowledge that you needed to have the AC on while driving when it was that cold to keep frost off the inside of your windshield. Maybe when air was pulled into the car it included snow & frost particles from outside that melted into the warm air and then immediately collected onto the inside of the windsheild. That coupled with moisture from the drivers breathe.

Regardless, the windshield required heat energy to stay frost free which would make a strictly electric vehicle to require a lot of energy capacity to get safely to work and back.

Could we get a "mild" nuclear type engine in a car safely?

 

[mgb_phys]

Looks like this alternative to a batteries could have even more problems keeping the users warm. http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/
Not sure if they are going to use the cooling effect of the expanding air as air-conditioning!

 

[drankin]

Cute idea but it won't catch on. I think transportation is always going to require that we burn something to get the power we are accustomed to.

 

[OmCheeto]

Cute idea but it won't catch on. I think transportation is always going to require that we burn something to get the power we are accustomed to.

I can't find the article I was looking for, but yes, people are always looking for new things to burn to run their vehicles:

Re: The Pellet Pickup
May 31, 2008, Larry Caldwell
... The Stanley ran on kerosene, but it would be simple to build
a wood pellet steam generator that would run on 100% biofuel. Rather
than using the piston steam engine of the Stanley, you could use a steam
turbine, and use it to directly drive a generator. You could eliminate
gears entirely and use solid state rectification of high frequency AC to
charge the batteries. ...

It appears he missed Leno's article on Stanleys & Dobles:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html
BY JAY LENO
Published in the May 2003 issue, Popular Mechanics

... Doble addressed the Stanley's problems. With my 1925 Doble, I get in, turn the key, and in under a minute I can pull away. And it pulls away silently, whoosh, just like that. It's an amazing feeling. With 1000 ft.-lb. of torque, it's effortless. ...

But all this talk about alternative power kind of makes you wonder if we aren't the ones keeping the electric car in it's grave. hmmm... nah. It was big oil.

I wonder when the price of lithium batteries is going to start dropping:

Castle Rock boat builder eyes electric-engine speed record
Thursday, October 9, 2008 11:54 PM PDT
By Brenda Blevins McCorkle

It took Bontoft roughly 18 months to build the boat, which cost about $30,000. The batteries worth $14,000 were donated by a Korean company, Enerland Division of A123 Systems.
During the last test, it topped at 101 mph.

and I don't know if anyone noticed, Mr. Twete's 4000 lb, 26ft electric boat is actually a hybrid:

batteries only:
range: 23 miles
225 ah * 12 batteries * 6 volts = 16.2kwh
16.2kwh * $0.10/kwh = $1.62
gas equivalent at $2.50/gal = 0.648 gallons
mileage: 35.5 mpg

hybrid mode:
Honda EU2000i 1.6kw continuous ultraquiet genset used for long cruises.
range limited to amount of fuel carried
mileage: 10 mpg
​

I'm not sure if anyone here is familiar with mileage figures for boats, but those are incredible numbers for a boat that size and weight.

My 14 foot, 400 lb, 40hp gas powered boat gets 6 mpg! Hence my research into ev-gas hybrids.

 

[mgb_phys]

I'm not sure if anyone here is familiar with mileage figures for boats, but those are incredible numbers for a boat that size and weight.
My 14 foot, 400 lb, 40hp gas powered boat gets 6 mpg! Hence my research into ev-gas hybrids.

There is research into totally bio-fueled boats, they can run on low grade organic waste products such as fast food indefinately and cruise at 6knots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme

They do require you find 160 naked, oiled and muscled Greek athletes - but Evo has volunteered to help.

 

[drankin]

This got me thinking. I'm not familiar with fuel cells but I believe hydrogen would be the best fuel. Now, we understand it creates a lot of energy to separate hydrogen from water. If we were able to get over our obstacles concerning nuclear power plants and create a few that were dedicated to mining (for lack of a better term) hydrogen. They would be nuclear hydrogen refineries. Create a hydrogen infrastructure in this country. Then we would be able to drive vehicles as large as we like and we would become energy independant cleaning up the environment. The refineries would create or "dump" a large quantity of oxygen into the atmosphere and offset the carbon dioxide/oxygen ratio problem many believe we have. In the interim we can switch over to natural gas.

I haven't researched this idea at all, just brainstorming really, but it is one way that seems very doable and would solve a lot of our concerns (other than the nuclear power plant hurdle).

 

[mgb_phys]

That is one of the reasons for using hydrogen. It is a way of shipping large amounts of energy long distance without running pipelines. One porposal is that countries with geothermal or hydroelectric power could use it to make hydrogen and ship that to the car users in LA.
This is basically what happens with Aluminium at the moment - it takes so much power so run an Al smelter that you put them where there is cheap hydro power and then ship the ore to them and the finished metal to where it's needed.
You could use nuclear power to make hydrogen, but since you can put a nuclear power station where ever you want it would make more sense to build it near the city and just use it drive plugin vehicles or public transit.

ps.
It's not the oxygen/CO2 ratio that is important for greenhouse effect- it's the pure amount of CO2, anyway the amount of O2 from making hydrogen would be negligible.
You would probably make hydrogen by splitting methane rather than water anyway.

 

[drankin]

That is one of the reasons for using hydrogen. It is a way of shipping large amounts of energy long distance without running pipelines. One porposal is that countries with geothermal or hydroelectric power could use it to make hydrogen and ship that to the car users in LA.
This is basically what happens with Aluminium at the moment - it takes so much power so run an Al smelter that you put them where there is cheap hydro power and then ship the ore to them and the finished metal to where it's needed.
You could use nuclear power to make hydrogen, but since you can put a nuclear power station where ever you want it would make more sense to build it near the city and just use it drive plugin vehicles or public transit.

ps.
It's not the oxygen/CO2 ratio that is important for greenhouse effect- it's the pure amount of CO2, anyway the amount of O2 from making hydrogen would be negligible.
You would probably make hydrogen by splitting methane rather than water anyway.

Why methane (I'm no chemist). Is it easier to hydrogen from methane? What is left when you do that?

 

[OmCheeto]

This got me thinking. I'm not familiar with fuel cells but I believe hydrogen would be the best fuel. Now, we understand it creates a lot of energy to separate hydrogen from water. If we were able to get over our obstacles concerning nuclear power plants and create a few that were dedicated to mining (for lack of a better term) hydrogen. They would be nuclear hydrogen refineries. Create a hydrogen infrastructure in this country. Then we would be able to drive vehicles as large as we like and we would become energy independant cleaning up the environment. The refineries would create or "dump" a large quantity of oxygen into the atmosphere and offset the carbon dioxide/oxygen ratio problem many believe we have. In the interim we can switch over to natural gas.

I haven't researched this idea at all, just brainstorming really, but it is one way that seems very doable and would solve a lot of our concerns (other than the nuclear power plant hurdle).

Odd. I ran across just what you are talking about while looking for that pellet stove pellet fueled hybrid vehicle this morning:

Ammonia Borane Pellets May Power Hydrogen Cars Of The Future
August 22nd 2007 07:50 AM

The Department of Energy’s Chemical Hydrogen Storage Center of Excellence is investigating a hydrogen storage medium that holds promise in meeting long-term targets for transportation use. As part of the center, PNNL scientists are using solid ammonia borane, or AB, compressed into small pellets to serve as a hydrogen storage material. Each milliliter of AB weighs about three-quarters of a gram and harbors up to 1.8 liters of hydrogen. Researchers expect that a fuel system using small AB pellets will occupy less space and be lighter in weight than systems using pressurized hydrogen gas, thus enabling fuel cell vehicles to have room, range and performance comparable to today’s automobiles.

Like you, I've not done any research in this area. But it is nice to know that there are a lot of people out there researching all sorts of new technologies. God bless $4/gallon.

 

[mgb_phys]

Why methane (I'm no chemist). Is it easier to hydrogen from methane? What is left when you do that?

In principle you are left with just carbon (as coke)
CH₄ -> C + 2H₂

In practice it's more efficent industrially to use steam.
CH₄ + H₂0 -> CO + 3H₂

So you have carbon monoxide which you can burn off to make CO₂, it's the same amount of CO₂ you would get if you burned the methane directly. The heat from this would power the process.

Eventually when you have industrial scale fuel cells and a source of electricty it may be more efficent to split water directly.

 

[drankin]

In principle you are left with just carbon (as coke)
CH₄ -> C + 2H₂

In practice it's more efficent industrially to use steam.
CH₄ + H₂0 -> CO + 3H₂

So you have carbon monoxide which you can burn off to make CO₂, it's the same amount of CO₂ you would get if you burned the methane directly. The heat from this would power the process.

Eventually when you have industrial scale fuel cells and a source of electricty it may be more efficent to split water directly.

I like it. How difficult is it to obtain large amounts of methane?

 

[mgb_phys]

I like it. How difficult is it to obtain large amounts of methane?

Methane is natural gas - there are big gas fields in lots of countries, Russia is probably the largest producer. It's basically like drilling for oil except gas is ussually at a shallower depth, needs a lot less processing before you sell it and is easier to transport.

 

[Proton Soup]

methane is also in huge ice deposits on the ocean floor, if only we can get at it. hydrogen's a bit impractical yet as a transportation fuel. H is too slippery and incompressible. it doesn't like to be held. but methane works fine in an ICE.

 

[mgb_phys]

but methane works fine in an ICE.

LPG car conversions are very popular in europe, the conversion is cheap and the engine can still run on gasoline.
The UK government was offering a green grant to pay for the conversion and LPG was a 1/3 the price of gasoline because of lower tax. Then oddly when enough people had converted new research showed how bad for the environment it was and the grants stopped and the tax on LPG went up.
By a strange coincidence the same thing happened with diesel 10years early.

 

[mheslep]

Relevant threads -
"Another promising development in hydrogen storage"
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1909595&postcount=16
"Debunking the hydrogen economy: Renewable H2 filling stations?"
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1850582&postcount=14

 

[Proton Soup]

LPG car conversions are very popular in europe, the conversion is cheap and the engine can still run on gasoline.
The UK government was offering a green grant to pay for the conversion and LPG was a 1/3 the price of gasoline because of lower tax. Then oddly when enough people had converted new research showed how bad for the environment it was and the grants stopped and the tax on LPG went up.
By a strange coincidence the same thing happened with diesel 10years early.

ye olde baite and switche! yeah, I'm sure there was some lobbying going on behind the scenes from the natural gas suppliers. and no matter how friendly the technology, it will eventually be demonized because that makes it easier to tax.