How often does helping someone out ever help?

[Pengwuino]

How often does "helping someone out" ever.. help?

Ok I have a good one! I personally hate the idea of welfare (and no, not government sponsored welfare... but actually yes, that too). I have really become down on the idea of helping people who have the means to help themselves.

What am I talking about? I have a few examples to clarify exactly what I mean since not all welfare is bad!

I have a family member who just cannot let their kids go. The kids (and by kids, I mean 23-30 year olds) rarely have jobs, one gets fired normally after 1 paycheck when he goes out and parties after receiving it and then proceeds to never return to work, another is too lazy to even legally maintain a drivers license/car, and i don't know what's up with the other. Of course, they live at home and are constantly being told to do something or they'll be kicked out... they never do that something... and are never kicked out.

My second example is a girl who went to my mothers church that had "nowhere to go". So she moved in under the condition that she looks (just looks!) for work and goes to school (she's a foster kid so schooling is completely paid for and her life is supported if she attends). Three months later... she has a job that she earned $12 total last month... but oh no, that's a job in her opinion... and of course no school as far as we can tell.

My third example is a friend of mine who actually could have moved back in with her parents for the summer but begged to stay here so she could work in the city. Of course, almost two weeks in I've seen her leave the house maybe 2 times and neither out to look for a job. She sleeps all day and just hangs out and blah blah blah's with the girl in the second example.

So, all this got me to thinking. I think most people have been in a situation where they offered to help someone out in situations like these or at least know people who have been in situations like these. I think we ALL know of people who take advantage of some sort of system in place to kind of "float through life" as well. I know many people who basically live off of financial aid for school and never look for an actual job because they can get by without it. I also know some (and through these people, know of entire buildings full of people doing this) people who just work seasonally and then claim unemployment for 6-8 months and live off this. Does anyone earn an honest living anymore??!

It also got me thinking... I wonder how often people offer someone a place to live and the people in the end actually move out because their situation improved and they left as promised instead of moving out because the person letting them stay got pissed and kicked them out. It feels like with certain people, as long as they know they have a place to stay, they live their life as they please!

So here's my assignment for you forumers. In your life experience, how often do people freeload in your opinion? I'm starting to think if you offer anything to anyone and expect certain conditions to be met, you're kidding yourself half the time. I'm remiss to ever label people as "those kinda people" based on certain ways they live their lives... however, in this case, I'm making an exception. I'm starting to think if you're the kind of person who can't support yourself, outside of having problems outside of your control, you're just a low life individual.

::end rant::

 

[DaveC426913]

Sometimes, unconditional love means giving someone a hand up even when you doubt it will pay off.

And sometimes these "doldrum" years are a phase. It seems endless, but flash forward five years then look back and you realize - it passes.

I went through a "lost" phase. I came out of it. I'm not proud of how long I was in it but I might not have the success I have now if I had simply been kicked out.

Also, one must be cautious of judging without having first walked a mile in another's shoes.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Evo]

LOSERS!

I've worked my a$$ off all of my life since I was 14. I have no sympathy for losers.

I can understand a hardworker temporarily down on their luck, but not people that are moochers.

 

[rootX]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Lao Tzu

Personally, I neither prefer to be near people who are too nice nor those who are just losers.

 

[Math Is Hard]

When I was in my 20s, I took in a meth addict girl. I gave her food and shelter and took her to my dentist to get her rotten teeth fixed (I helped her with that, and my dentist was very kind and gave us a super low price).
But she just went right back to drugs and her abusive drug dealer boyfriend and I had to boot her out. Lesson learned.
My policy now is NO charity to people. I only support organizations that help animals.

 

[DaveC426913]

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Lao Tzu

Set a man a fire and he's warm for a day.
Set a man afire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

 

[Pengwuino]

Also, one must be cautious of judging without having first walked a mile in another's shoes.

Just some food for thought.

See, I hear this all the time and there are limitations to how long I can believe that BS. I give people the benefit of the doubt and patience more often and for longer than anyone I know. I find it almost impossible to believe, however, that anything could have happened in someones life or is happening to them at the time that forces someone to sit infront of the tv all day every day or talking to friends on the phone and hanging out with them continuously instead of getting a real job. As for the people who get unemployment while doing that seasonal gig i mentioned, it is completely intentional (and this is not my opinion, this is what the people actually say). They're honestly "smart", why work the rest of the year when the government will give you money to not work? And yes, it is money to not work, I know many people who have used unemployment and know people/family with decades of experience working in social services and they all know its easy to game the system.

 

[Gokul43201]

Sometimes, unconditional love means giving someone a hand up even when you doubt it will pay off.

You seem to state this as though unconditional love is obviously a good thing.

Also, one must be cautious of judging without having first walked a mile in another's shoes.

Speak not ill of murderers and rapists!

 

[DaveC426913]

I've worked my a$$ off all of my life since I was 14. I have no sympathy for losers.

Never really understood this logic.
Because I personally have not had experience X, I don't believe anyone else can have had experience X.

 

[rootX]

Never really understood this logic.
Because I personally have not had experience X, I don't believe anyone else can have had experience X.

Everyone fails once a while on epic scales and sees his/her bad days. There is no exception to this I believe. You can either be a loser or confront your failure.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I have recently had such an issue. I have also seen it happen several times. I think that the primary consideration is that those people who do not leech you will not find leeching. If I lost my job I would have a job very soon and not allow myself to sit leeching off of others. The one instance where I did find myself in a situation where I could not for the life of me find a job I broke down emotionally, felt like a horrible piece of ****, apologized to my friends who were supporting me, and left to find a situation where I could get myself a job. The last time I lost my place to live (because of a roommate who was leeching off of me), when I had to move out and save money before I could find and move into another place, I lived in my car rather than foist myself onto any of my friends or relatives. I did not even tell my family what was going on to avoid their offers of help.

 

[DaveC426913]

You seem to state this as though unconditional love is obviously a good thing.

And you seem to state that as if whether it's a good thing or not changes anything.

 

[Pengwuino]

Never really understood this logic.
Because I personally have not had experience X, I don't believe anyone else can have had experience X.

I don't think that's entirely what she means. I think it's more of "I had to choose between X and Y, Y being easier or less moral or what have you than X, thus I have no sympathy for people who face problems because of their choice, Y".

 

[DaveC426913]

I lived in my car rather than foist myself onto any of my friends or relatives. I did not even tell my family what was going on to avoid their offers of help.

Where did you iron your suit for interviews? Sometimes, not refusing a helping hand is dumb, and even destructive.

 

[Moonbear]

Oh, I've seen this plenty of times. And, yes, freeloaders will continue freeloading as long as there's a sucker willing to support that lifestyle. I have no tolerance for it, but I've seen even employed people manage to bum a room in someone's house while "looking for an apartment" but then no apartment is good enough. They get kicked out, and move in with someone else "just until they can find a place of their own," etc. But, more often they're complete leeches who live somewhere until they get thrown out, find another place until they get thrown out, etc. The only way people finally get rid of them is to fill out the rental application for them and move them out and then change the locks on the doors so they can't get back in when they get evicted for not paying the rent.

No, it doesn't help them to let them keep bumming off people. It's amazing how resourceful they can get when they run out of places to bum a couch from.

Once in a rare while, someone really does just need a temporary arrangement. An example is the post-doc moving from another state who needs a place to stay for a week or two while apartment hunting because they couldn't find a place without looking at it first. I've put up a few people like that for a week or two in my guest room, but they've been previously self-sufficient and the conditions were clear that it was temporary (they didn't even move all their stuff in, just put it in storage and brought a suitcase of clothes).

In contrast, there's a staff person in my department with a long history of never paying rent, just moving from one temporary home to another while supposedly looking for apartments and never finding one that quite suits him. Fortunately, I was warned about this, and made sure never to mention to him that I had a spare bedroom. I later found out he is allergic to cats, so talked about my cat a LOT.

I have a step-brother who used to be really bad about bouncing from couch to couch as he quit or got fired from one job or another. Too many people took him in. When it was my turn, I refused. I told him it was time to grow up and be a man.

 

[DaveC426913]

... people who face problems because of their choice, Y".

Yeah, I'm finding this a running theme. MiH had a similar example where she seemed to think the Meth Addict chose to go back to drugs.

Being in a depressive state sort of goes hand-in-hand with being unable to do a lot about it.

 

[Evo]

Where did you iron your suit for interviews? Sometimes, not refusing a helping hand is dumb, and even destructive.

SA went above and beyond with his personal sacrifice. He could come live with me anytime. I'd be proud to help someone like that. I'm the same way, I never, ever asked for help or took the easy way out. I had jobs that paid $1.50 an hour and worked 90 hours a week, seriously.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Where did you iron your suit for interviews? Sometimes, not refusing a helping hand is dumb, and even destructive.

I had a job. I did not have a place to live, hence living in my car. If you mean interviews for apartment rentals I just wore regular clothing and I serviced them in a regular old laundr-o-mat. If I could afford to live somewhere that I would need a suit to interview for I would have been staying in motel rooms (which I did do on weekends when I hadn't even work to go to).

 

[Pengwuino]

See, while I very much dislike leeches, I do have to say I strongly object to the idea of people refusing all help no matter what. The reason I do actually like the various forms of private and social and governmental welfare is that it's, in my opinion, far more destructive to allow someone to barely scrape by or hit rock bottom if it's possible to "hold them up". Oddly enough, these days it feels like the people most deserving of this safety net are the people who refuse it the most and visa versa.

 

[DaveC426913]

See, while I very much dislike leeches, I do have to say I strongly object to the idea of people refusing all help no matter what. The reason I do actually like the various forms of private and social and governmental welfare is that it's, in my opinion, far more destructive to allow someone to barely scrape by or hit rock bottom if it's possible to "hold them up". Oddly enough, these days it feels like the people most deserving of this safety net are the people who refuse it the most and visa versa.

Well, that safety net is what we call Employment Insurance. It's for people in the workforce to carry them through a dry spell till they can get back in the saddle.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well, that safety net is what we call Employment Insurance. It's for people in the workforce to carry them through a dry spell till they can get back in the saddle.

Yes, but also when friends and family want to help out, people shouldn't feel ashamed to accept it. I think if there's any valid way of grouping people in life, it's people who leech, and people who will sell their own body parts before they ask help, and very few people in between. With that in mind, if I were ever to help someone out big time and I practically had to force the help upon them, I'd bet good money I wouldn't regret the decision.

 

[rootX]

This thread reminds me of Two and Half men

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QopVObcmOCk

 

[GeorginaS]

I've been on my own since I was 17 years old. I worked, had my own place, was self-sufficient and willingly shared my home with different people who have wandered in and out of my life. I've worked hard, didn't get any support from my parents, put myself through school, donated, volunteered, and etc. and never once considered applying to the government for help. I made myself stand on my own two feet, and I think I've done a pretty decent job of it.

And you know what? At one point in my life, a really, really bad thing happened to me, over which I had no control. And you know what else? I lost absolutely everything I'd worked for, and I was entirely incapable of helping myself much less even making sure I was safe. And, so, yeah. I got to be one the people you're so liberally calling a "loser", here. I had to depend on friends to help me out until the awful storm passed, and I could work towards getting my feet back under me. It was an entirely crazy situation. I got out of it, but I guess I was a loser by the definition here.

Sometimes stuff happens to people. Also, there's another thing to consider. Contrary to the constitution of the US of A, not all people are created equal. Periodically we can step back and look at ourselves and thank genetics that we're hung together the way that we are. Not everyone is as capable as the next person. Some people seriously cannot connect the dots. That doesn't mean that everything should be done for them and that doesn't mean that you should suddenly have chronic freeloaders living on your sofa.

Sometimes people take longer to get it together than you are prepared to tolerate. Then my advice is: don't be around it. Don't watch and don't listen if the people who are supposedly doing the giving complain about it. That, too, is their lot to deal with. Keep your eyes on your own paper and spend study time with people that mean something to you. Everyone else will get along just fine without you watching and ranting about them.

 

[rootX]

Everyone else will get along just fine

with your tax money.

 

[GeorginaS]

with your tax money.

Well, if feeding some people who didn't work for it is the worst thing my tax dollars go to, I can live pretty happily with that.

 

[Pengwuino]

I got to be one the people you're so liberally calling a "loser", here.

I don't think anyone here gave the impression that people that stumble upon "hard times" are "losers". I think there's a distinct difference between people who are going through a rough patch and people who simply have entertainment as a higher priority then self-sufficiency.

 

[Borg]

My sister has to sell her house this year - partly because of all the money that she spent supporting our half-sister and her four kids. My sister took her in after the half-sister left her husband. The half-sister was studying but, whenever she had any money, there was always an excuse why she couldn't help with the bills.

Of course, I also blame my sister for providing them with cable, a cell phone, restaurant trips, etc. when she had a house that she could barely afford. It makes me sad to see this happen but, I know that if I helped, nothing would change. Both of them are very religious. You can guess which one quotes passages about helping others.

 

[blank.black]

If I am a "loser" and have to live under another person's care and support, simply because I cannot keep a job(that I need to put myself through college so that I can look for a better job) due to the fact that I come home everyday wanting to K-I-L-L the people I work with because of how stupid, ignorant, lazy, dramatic, etc. they are...then what advice do you have for me? Should I continue hopping from one job to another and hence keep living in someone elses house? Should I put up with those kind of people at work and keep telling myself about how things will be fine tomorrow when I already know they will not? Or should I just go ahead and put one in their stupid good-for-nothing heads?

 

[Evo]

The "losers" are the ones that don't want to make it on their own, the ones that would rather mooch off other people forever.

It's not about people that try and have bad luck, or run into trouble.

My daughter just moved back in with me to save money, she goes to college full time and holds two jobs. It makes sense for her to move in because we can help each other out.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

There certainly are people who just don't want to work and make a living for themselves and prefer living off others or government money.

Well, what's there to do? We can't exactly let them starve to death. That doesn't mean you should let them reside on your couch, of course.

On the other hand, there ARE people who are honestly "going through a phase" or "looking for an apartment" and who would gladly help you in the same way... So I guess it depends on the person and the situation.

 

[Lacy33]

My sister has to sell her house this year - partly because of all the money that she spent supporting our half-sister and her four kids. My sister took her in after the half-sister left her husband. The half-sister was studying but, whenever she had any money, there was always an excuse why she couldn't help with the bills.

Of course, I also blame my sister for providing them with cable, a cell phone, restaurant trips, etc. when she had a house that she could barely afford. It makes me sad to see this happen but, I know that if I helped, nothing would change. Both of them are very religious. You can guess which one quotes passages about helping others.

If someone is using religious verses, then I remember one about.. Not being allowed to be righteous on the backs of another. (paraphrase)

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

If I am a "loser" and have to live under another person's care and support, simply because I cannot keep a job(that I need to put myself through college so that I can look for a better job) due to the fact that I come home everyday wanting to K-I-L-L the people I work with because of how stupid, ignorant, lazy, dramatic, etc. they are...then what advice do you have for me? Should I continue hopping from one job to another and hence keep living in someone elses house? Should I put up with those kind of people at work and keep telling myself about how things will be fine tomorrow when I already know they will not? Or should I just go ahead and put one in their stupid good-for-nothing heads?

My friend has this sort of issue. I find that it is mainly him not liking work and taking it out on his coworkers. He does his job well but then just can't get on with his coworkers in a normal fashion and eventually gets fired or quits. After he lost his last job he got brainwashed (rather willingly of course) into believing it would be better to take time out from working and "follow his goals and dreams" since work was just such a horrible waste of his time and talent anyway. He left me holding the bag on rent and bills until our lease was up and then went to stay with someone else who eventually got tired of him and kicked him out. Now he has moved on to mooching off of family while he "follows his dreams" and "does something better with himself".

Perhaps you have a rather unique situation in the jobs you have done (if you are in fact portraying your own situation) but for the most part it is really just part of regular adult life that you will wind up dealing with people you would rather not. There are idiots and drama queens in every walk of life. Getting a college education, finding a better job, or "following your dreams" is not going to alleviate you of this burden of everyday life.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

SA went above and beyond with his personal sacrifice. He could come live with me anytime. I'd be proud to help someone like that. I'm the same way, I never, ever asked for help or took the easy way out. I had jobs that paid $1.50 an hour and worked 90 hours a week, seriously.

And thank you Evo. :-)
My smelling of cigarettes would likely be a deal breaker though. ;-p

 

[waht]

For millions of years humans have evolved honed traits to survive in the jungle, and other harsh climates. But only in the last few thousand years the environment we lived in has dramatically changed as the hunter-gatherers have organized into extremely complex societies that require different skill set to succeed.

Leaching off of other people, and lending a helping hand may have been more beneficial back then when food and population was scarce.

But now these people are stuck, they were built for a different environment, and so are unable to adapt as efficiently as others who were lucky to have the right traits to adapt in a new environment. They aren't losers.

 

[Evo]

For millions of years humans have evolved honed traits to survive in the jungle, and other harsh climates. But only in the last few thousand years the environment we lived in has dramatically changed as the hunter-gatherers have organized into extremely complex societies that require different skill set to succeed.

Leaching off of other people, and lending a helping hand may have been more beneficial back then when food and population was scarce.

But now these people are stuck, they were built for a different environment, and so are unable to adapt as efficiently as others who were lucky to have the right traits to adapt in a new environment. They aren't losers.

That doesn't make any sense to me. They're leeches because of what environment?

We're talking about the examples Penqwuino gave.

 

[blank.black]

My friend has this sort of issue. I find that it is mainly him not liking work and taking it out on his coworkers. He does his job well but then just can't get on with his coworkers in a normal fashion and eventually gets fired or quits. After he lost his last job he got brainwashed (rather willingly of course) into believing it would be better to take time out from working and "follow his goals and dreams" since work was just such a horrible waste of his time and talent anyway. He left me holding the bag on rent and bills until our lease was up and then went to stay with someone else who eventually got tired of him and kicked him out. Now he has moved on to mooching off of family while he "follows his dreams" and "does something better with himself".

Perhaps you have a rather unique situation in the jobs you have done (if you are in fact portraying your own situation) but for the most part it is really just part of regular adult life that you will wind up dealing with people you would rather not. There are idiots and drama queens in every walk of life. Getting a college education, finding a better job, or "following your dreams" is not going to alleviate you of this burden of everyday life.

Sorry to hear about what your friend put you through.

So if I got this right, what you are saying is that the answer to the situation I described is that I should just put up with idiots like that and just let things slide. So instead of performing one task at work like I normally would, if I have to end up performing multiple tasks just because I am covering for someone else who is smoking by the backdoor or texting in the bathroom, then I should go ahead and do that just because lazy people are now an everyday phenomena?

 

[turbo]

Some people expect to be "helped out" all their lives. I have a sister who is married to an absolute slug. My father is living on a meager retirement income, yet she was pressing him to let her daughter move in with him and put her through college. When my father was working for a privately-owned wood products mill, the owner and his wife paid him extra wages in the form of savings bonds every week so the payroll people wouldn't know just how much he was earning. He saved all those bonds and put them jointly in the names of himself and each one of us kids. A couple of weeks ago, my sister called him begging for money and wanted her "inheritance" early, so she and her husband could put a down-payment on the house they are renting. 30+ years of marriage, and they never managed to save enough money to buy a house? My father was pretty upset about that phone call and called me immediately afterward, because all the bonds are in my big Mosler safe, and he thought that she might call me for the bonds or perhaps a "loan". He needn't have concerned himself. I don't give money to moochers. They would only default on the mortgage and lose the property and up-front money to the bank.

 

[zoobyshoe]

For millions of years humans have evolved honed traits to survive in the jungle, and other harsh climates. But only in the last few thousand years the environment we lived in has dramatically changed as the hunter-gatherers have organized into extremely complex societies that require different skill set to succeed.

Leaching off of other people, and lending a helping hand may have been more beneficial back then when food and population was scarce.

But now these people are stuck, they were built for a different environment, and so are unable to adapt as efficiently as others who were lucky to have the right traits to adapt in a new environment. They aren't losers.

I think the problem is nurture, not nature. People who avoid working were never taught to work, and were taught to expect someone else to take care of them. By the time they're a certain age this programming has become their default state.

When I was about 10 my mother said allowance had to be earned: floors had to be swept and dishes washed. The next step was that she put the word out I was available to neighbors for after school yardwork. I mowed lawns, and shoveled snow for my spending money. At 14 I got a real job for the summer: collecting the eggs (from 2000 irate chickens). It was 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. It was a dirty, smelly job, but I was rather wealthy for a 14 year old. Anyway, I got the message: money comes from work.

I think it's a thing people have to be taught just like they have to be taught to read. We're born having to be completely taken care of, helpless. Good parenting requires teaching a kid to earn his/her money at a young age. If you go into the personal history of an authentic "leech" I think you'll find this lesson was badly botched or completely neglected.

 

[waht]

That doesn't make any sense to me. They're leeches because of what environment?

We're talking about the examples Penqwuino gave.

I'm saying that from an evolutionary point of view, people have evolved to survive in the jungle so to speak. But all of sudden we find ourselves in highly complex societies of modern world, and as a result some people have harder time coping than others.

Mooching and lending a helping hand to a stranger could have been useful back in the caveman times, but the trait still exists today which manifests itself into welfare system among many other things.

I think the problem is nurture, not nature.

I'm leaning towards that the problem is a subtle interplay of both.

Consider that cases of siblings growing up in a same household, and one sibling is working hard and turns out fine, and the other is eternally unhappy, did tons of jobs before, borrows money and never pays back, and mooches off of friends and family.

People who avoid working were never taught to work, and were taught to expect someone else to take care of them. By the time they're a certain age this programming has become their default state. / If you go into the personal history of an authentic "leech" I think you'll find this lesson was badly botched or completely neglected.

But is it still their fault they weren't taught hard work early on, or that they were always being taken care of?

It seems like these are all forces outside of anyone's control.

 

[turbo]

I think it's a thing people have to be taught just like they have to be taught to read. We're born having to be completely taken care of, helpless. Good parenting requires teaching a kid to earn his/her money at a young age. If you go into the personal history of an authentic "leech" I think you'll find this lesson was badly botched or completely neglected.

You're right. I got NO allowance, though I shoveled the driveway and the clothesline and walks, took care of the garbage, lugged 5-gallon containers of heating oil to the stoves all winter, did all the mowing, raking, etc, and weeded the vegetable garden. If I wanted money, I had to earn it outside the home, so by 12, I had a paper route and did odd-jobs for others. Soon after, I got a part-time job at the local cemetery. The next season, I was the only kid that the sexton hired, so I was full-time plus overtime at $1.25/hr. The first selectman was mad because his kid was one of the 3 that didn't get hired back. I was 2 years younger than them, but worked a LOT harder. At 17, I got a job flagging for a road-construction project. I was initially started as a skid-steer loader operator until the superintendent found out that I was 17. The foreman was upset about losing me because I was a safe and reliable operator, but state law says you have to be 18 to operate heavy equipment. I was making OK money that summer, but wanted more, so I ate on the job (flagging isn't that demanding) and spent my lunch hours greasing Euclids for extra pay.

It is so foreign to me to try to understand the mind-set of people who feel that they deserve to "skate by" all of their lives, doing little or nothing to improve their situations.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'm leaning towards that the problem is a subtle interplay of both.

Consider that cases of siblings growing up in a same household, and one sibling is working hard and turns out fine, and the other is eternally unhappy, did tons of jobs before, borrows money and never pays back, and mooches off of friends and family.

Too hypothetical. I'd have to see an exact case and study it for a long time to find out what went wrong.

But is it still their fault they weren't taught hard work early on, or that they were always being taken care of?

No, it's not their fault. If someone hasn't been taught to read and write by the time they're 18 suddenly requiring them to figure out how to learn to read and write is unrealistic.

It seems like these are all forces outside of anyone's control.

Probably not, but it would be very hard to correct.

There are huge problems that have to be solved first. Like, how do we teach mortgage lenders not to rape the economy?

 

[Evo]

I'm saying that from an evolutionary point of view, people have evolved to survive in the jungle so to speak. But all of sudden we find ourselves in highly complex societies of modern world, and as a result some people have harder time coping than others.

All of a sudden, as in over the last 50,000 years?

Being a worthless leech is not evolutionary.

But let's not keep dragging this off topic, please respond to the OP. Thanks.

 

[zoobyshoe]

It is so foreign to me to try to understand the mind-set of people who feel that they deserve to "skate by" all of their lives, doing little or nothing to improve their situations.

Someone botched or completely neglected the job of teaching them. Waiting for someone else to help becomes ingrained in their psychology. They completely lack the history you and I have.

 

[turbo]

Someone botched or completely neglected the job of teaching them. Waiting for someone else to help becomes ingrained in their psychology. They completely lack the history you and I have.

You'd think that if they had a modicum of intelligence, they could look around and see people who have become self-sufficient through hard work and frugality. I don't hold out much hope though, because there are too many ways to mooch instead of work and too many enablers who allow themselves to be taken.

My sisters and I were raised in a time when mothers stayed home and fathers worked, and my sisters milked the system for all it was worth. About the only help they gave around the house was doing the dishes, and getting THAT was like pulling teeth - they complained and whined about everything they were asked to do and my parents didn't have the patience or persistence to face them down. Now as adults, two of them have no savings. If a vehicle breaks down, they can't pay to have it repaired and they cry for money to "help them out". It's always a "poor me" story that somehow omits the little detail that they have never lived within their means and saved enough money to cope with the inevitable unforeseen expenses. I don't give them money for "emergencies" - they wouldn't be "emergencies" if there was a modest savings account to cover the costs. It's sad to see people in their mid-50's who are that clueless about personal finances.

Thankfully, the youngest finally broke out of her dependency and is doing OK. She works as a home health-care coordinator during the week, and tends bar at a hotel every Friday and Saturday night. She has her own house and a nice lot in town, and she pinches her pennies.

 

[waht]

Too hypothetical. I'd have to see an exact case and study it for a long time to find out what went wrong.

Yes probably. I'm just relating to my own sibling who has a vastly different personality from mine.

All of a sudden, as in over the last 50,000 years?

That's a blink of an eye.

Being a worthless leech is not evolutionary.

I disagree with this, that's why I'm not so quick to jump on the band wagon and label moochers as losers without having some deeper level understanding of their situation.

But let's not keep dragging this off topic, please respond to the OP. Thanks.

Yes, I agree.

 

[zoobyshoe]

My sisters and I were raised in a time when mothers stayed home and fathers worked, and my sisters milked the system for all it was worth. About the only help they gave around the house was doing the dishes, and getting THAT was like pulling teeth - they complained and whined about everything they were asked to do and my parents didn't have the patience or persistence to face them down. Now as adults, two of them have no savings. If a vehicle breaks down, they can't pay to have it repaired and they cry for money to "help them out". It's always a "poor me" story that somehow omits the little detail that they have never lived within their means and saved enough money to cope with the inevitable unforeseen expenses. I don't give them money for "emergencies" - they wouldn't be "emergencies" if there was a modest savings account to cover the costs. It's sad to see people in their mid-50's who are that clueless about personal finances.

I think a "no allowance" policy for household chores is bad. To the extent the house becomes a little workplace at chore time it mentally prepares kids for the real life workplace. The handing out of allowance at the completion of the work is important. The kid learns: work = money.

 

[Pengwuino]

But is it still their fault they weren't taught hard work early on, or that they were always being taken care of?

It seems like these are all forces outside of anyone's control.

I think this is part of becoming mature. Things and habbits and ways of living or thinking that one may have developed as a kid may not fly in the real world as an adult. As a kid, my parents paid for everything, I didn't have to do chores, and had a generally easy life. However, at some point (and thank God this was when I was still a teenager), I realized that that's not how life works. To be able to have things and live a decent life, you have to have money which requires a job that you're required to go to continuously. I also realized people will rarely do things for you in the real world and if they do, it's not the norm and shouldn't be something to expect.

Someone brought up the idea of "following your dreams" which made me giggle just a bit . I'm not as down on people who do this then one might expect. Going to college is in a sense, following a dream for a rather select people (you know, those few people who go into X major hoping to go into X major's fields). Then again, maybe this is why so many people feel an entitlement to receive a college education and continue that feeling of entitlement into the rest of their life. Let's face it, I can't imagine ANYONE who pays the true cost of their college education alone (public universities/colleges are subsidized and I can't imagine anyone paying their private university tuition upfront with their own savings). Everyone's a leech on that system. Student's leech off the government and student loans and creditors. Then when their rates go up or their classes get canceled or their loans don't get there in time, they complain and go protest and make themselves look silly. I remember during all the tuition hike hoopla last year, they interviewed some idiot at Berkeley that claimed free education was a right. A lot of people believe this as well. To me, that's the equivalent of someone saying it's their right to move into your house and then complain that their room isn't big enough or the temperature isn't just right. What kind of world do we live in?

You'd think that if they had a modicum of intelligence, they could look around and see people who have become self-sufficient through hard work and frugality. I don't hold out much hope though, because there are too many ways to mooch instead of work and too many enablers who allow themselves to be taken.

Enablers! They're the problem too! It's SO hard to say no to family! What I hate is when there are people who know that there are members of their family that will always help them and they intentionally take advantage. It's so unfortunate when people will help family out simply because "they're family". It's also so difficult to break the dependence because "what will everyone think?". In my experience, when you help a friend, only you and the friend and maybe a few other people will know about it. When it's family... ohhh boy, if you're like my family, information crosses state lines. I personally don't do anything for someone for the sole reason of "because they're family". If I do something for someone in my family, it's because they've helped me before or because they're good people and deserve it, not just because we're related.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I remember during all the tuition hike hoopla last year, they interviewed some idiot at Berkeley that claimed free education was a right. A lot of people believe this as well.

There's a distinct cognitive dissonance built into the system. Up through high school education is not only free, it's required. Then suddenly, it's elective, but you have to pay exorbitant fees for it.

 

[Klockan3]

It is so foreign to me to try to understand the mind-set of people who feel that they deserve to "skate by" all of their lives, doing little or nothing to improve their situations.

I don't understand people who thinks that life isn't worth living unless you got a lot of money. Seriously most things are just about free and you can save the rest. I have barely worked in my life but I also learned to not spend so I have a ton saved up anyway, for example when I was 11 I had worked together roughly 500 dollars from door to door selling, what did I do? I of course invested it all on the stock market! What else was there to do? The funny thing about that btw is that that investment is now worth more than 10 times that...

 

[waht]

I think this is part of becoming mature. Things and habbits and ways of living or thinking that one may have developed as a kid may not fly in the real world as an adult.

That's generally true, but some people just never grow up, might have narcissistic personality or could carry too much childhood baggage well into adulthood.

Everyone's a leech on that system. Student's leech off the government and student loans and creditors.

This stems from an innate human desire to take advantage of something, and some people have it more than others. There is also an innate desire to help others in need, both at a keen and a charity level, and some people have it more than others.

And so a conflict arises when these these two opposing forces interact and manifest into all sorts of grotesque social situations.

What kind of world do we live in?

There are huge problems that have to be solved first. Like, how do we teach mortgage lenders not to rape the economy?

This is just a natural and emergent outcome. Systems theory might provide a good answer to this. I'm currently studying more about it.