How to know when an LC circuit hits resonance

[electricalguy]

I have been having issues with a series LC circuit. I have a supply voltage of 6.96 volts, across the inductor is 7.04 volts and the capacitor voltage is 7.17 volts. The capacitor has a capacitance of 45uFarad and a supply frequency of 250 hertz. I don't know what the inductance is of the inductor. Can anyone teach me how to calculate the resonant frequency. I'm a bit stuck here on this concept. This is not a homework question.

 

[phinds]

What has your research so far turned up? This is a VERY basic problem.

 

[berkeman]

Welcome to the PF.

a supply frequency of 250 hertz.

Can you vary the drive frequency? Do you have a 2-channel oscilloscope? If yes to both, you can vary the drive frequency and watch the LC lowpass filter behavior to do a Bode plot, and find the resonance that way.

If no to either, then @phinds suggestion is your best bet.

 

[electricalguy]

My research so far tells me that resonance is reached when the supply voltage is equal to the voltage across the inductor minus the voltage across the capacitor. But I'm not sure if that is right.

 

[jim hardy]

I have been having issues with a series LC circuit. I have a supply voltage of 6.96 volts, across the inductor is 7.04 volts and the capacitor voltage is 7.17 volts. The capacitor has a capacitance of 45uFarad and a supply frequency of 250 hertz.

It's hard to guess from where you're starting.
Do you know what is meant by the terms "capacitive reactance' and "inductive reactance" ?

You might need to look over some very basic tutorials.https://c03.apogee.net/contentplayer/?coursetype=foe&utilityid=wppi&id=4571

 

[electricalguy]

Okay I just did some math on it, I calculated that the capacitor had an impedance of 14.147111 ohms. So that gives me a current of 0.506817253 amps. So then I take the voltage of the inductor divided by the current and I get an impedance of 13.89060842 ohms which at 250 hertz equals 8843.03 uHenry. How can that be, because when I change the value of the capacitor the impedance ratio changes and the inductance values changing dramatically.

 

[sophiecentaur]

How can that be, because when I change the value of the capacitor the impedance ratio changes and the inductance values changing dramatically.

Do you find a different resonant frequency with a different capacitance? You have presumably read around this and know the formula for resonant frequency in terms of L and C. The way you are approaching there problem is a bit different from how I would have done it (not involving impedance at all, initially).
If you find that the capacitance does not produce the resonance at a frequency you would expect ( calculate) then there must be some parasitic capacitance.

 

[electricalguy]

Okay, so if the inductor has an insulation coating on the wires, it will experience parasitic capacitance. Is there any way to calculate the value of parasitic capacitance in the inductor?

 

[jim hardy]

What is the DC resistance of your inductor ? You can measure it with your multimeter. If it's less than 10% of your calculated reactance it won't grossly distort your experiment. .

Your capacitor also has series resistance but it's not so easily measured. Do you have its datasheet ? Is there a published ESR on it ?

How can that be, because when I change the value of the capacitor the impedance ratio changes and the inductance values changing dramatically.

You're asking us to evaluate your results without telling us what they are. Excruciating detail is the price of clear communication.

 

[electricalguy]

Thank you everyone for the help so far! I do have another question related to this topic. If the current passing through the circuit is too low at the applied frequency for a capacitor that is larger, would that have a negative effect on the LC circuit to be able to function.

 

[jim hardy]

If the current passing through the circuit is too low

By what criterion do you declare it "too low" ? It's just Ohm's Law.

would that have a negative effect on the LC circuit to be able to function.

What does that mean ?


Your questions tell me you do not yet understand the concept of "Impedance".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance

That you measure nearly the same voltage across your inductor and capacitor and supply, all three within 2% of their (approximate 7 volt) average, suggests there is substantial resistance present in your circuit.
You've not made provision for that in any calculation you've shown us.

I suggest you vary frequency and make a plot with four lines
horizontal axis: frequency
vertical axis four variables :
1. supply voltage,
2. current,
3. voltage across inductor,
4. voltage across capacitor.

 

[sophiecentaur]

If you show us the circuit diagram and tell us what voltage frequency characteristic you are expecting. Are you expecting a peak or a dip? What happens if you put a high resistor (say 10kOhms) in series?
I would feel happier if you said what book or other source you are using.
What signal source are you using?

 

[electricalguy]

Thank you everyone for the help! The suggestion from Jim Hardy has been very useful. I have started to graph the supply voltage, current, inductor voltage and capacitor voltage with different input frequencies. It has shown that I am quite a bit below resonance with this setup. Thank you to all of you again, very helpful suggestions.

 

[jim hardy]

It has shown that I am quite a bit below resonance with this setup. Thank you to all of you again, very helpful suggestions.

We'd be interested to see your plot. If you can scan it into a jpg and save on your computer , 'upload' button should let you insert it in a post.

Current should peak at resonance.

 

[LvW]

Thank you everyone for the help! The suggestion from Jim Hardy has been very useful. I have started to graph the supply voltage, current, inductor voltage and capacitor voltage with different input frequencies. It has shown that I am quite a bit below resonance with this setup. Thank you to all of you again, very helpful suggestions.

Using the technical term "resonance" one should know the definition of this term.
Some people think that it is identical to a maximum resp. minimum of some specific voltage or current - but this might be true for some simple cases only.
The basic definition is based on the phase shift caused by the circuit, which means:
We have "resonance" when the voltage measured at the output node is in phase with the input signal (zero phase shift).

 

[jim hardy]

Resonance
Resonance in AC circuits implies a special frequency determined by the values of the resistance , capacitance , and inductance .
For series resonance the condition of resonance is straightforward and it is characterized by minimum impedance and zero phase.

 

[jim hardy]

http://eecs.vuse.vanderbilt.edu/courses/ee213/what_is_resonance.htm

What is resonance?

Resonance occurs when the reactance of an inductor equals the reactance of a capacitor at some given frequency in an RLC circuit. In series resonant circuits under resonant condition, the current will be maximum and offering minimum impedance. In parallel resonant circuits the opposite is true.

Phasor diagrams make it intuitive. OP hasn't shown us he's ready for those just yet. One step at a time.

old jim

 

[LvW]

Yes - of course, the above given answer to "what is resonance" is correct - however, only for a simple RLC series or parallel combination.
If the circuit is somewhat more complicated - with additional loss resistances and/or a second capacitor - the criterion "minimum/maximum" does not hold anymore.
In such a case, we have to use the phase criterion.

Moreover, even for simple RLC series or parallel circuits, it is best to use the phase criterion (zero phase shift) because the measurement of the resonance point based on application of the phase condition is much more exact if compared with an amplitude measurement (maximum).

 

[jim hardy]

Yes - of course, the above given answer to "what is resonance" is correct - however,

It just describing characteristics of a resonant circuit.

I didn't find an actual physics based definition with just a few minute search .

His original question was

Can anyone teach me how to calculate the resonant frequency.

I figured he'd be best served learning how to observe resonance (via frequency response plots) .
If his circuit has any Q at all he'll get the surprising result that both his capacitor and his inductor see voltage that exceeds his Vsupply.
That apparent violation of KVL should spike his curiosity and open the door for complex arithmetic.
Seeing one's voltmeter report 1 + 1 = √2 or some other non-2 result makes one a believer.

one step at a time. "What" before "Why" .

What do you think is best way to lead him to water ?

LATE EDIT This post may have come across as argumentative. Nothing was further from my mind . I just worry about flooding newbies with information overload. Last line was an honest question.

old jim

 

[sophiecentaur]

I didn't find an actual physics based definition with just a few minute search .

One way to look at the resonant frequency is the frequency at which the most energy can be stored in the circuit but there are many alternatives. I like the Energy one because it is the least specific and, well - I like Energy.

 

[The Electrician]

It just describing characteristics of a resonant circuit.

I didn't find an actual physics based definition with just a few minute search .

There's a lot of good stuff on electrical resonance at the Hyperphysics site: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/serres.html#c1

and: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/parres.html

and of course at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance

 

[LvW]

To Jim Hardy...Sorry, I am afraid - you misunderstood something.
In no way I wanted to correct or even criticize one of your contribution.
It was my only intention to tell the questioner that - using a term like "resonance" - it is always necessary to know the meaning/definition of such a technical term.
As another example, many questioners are using the term "corner frequency" without knowing that this is not always identical to the 3-dB frequency.
It is simply a matter of definition!

 

[Tom.G]

using a term like "resonance" - it is always necessary to know the meaning/definition of such a technical term.

Yes. And that is the precise thing he is in the process of learning.

 

[berkeman]

Thread closed briefly for Moderation...

 

[berkeman]

Okay, thread is tentatively re-opened. Let's please try to stay on-point helping the OP at the level he is asking the questions. Understanding the basics of resonance can be important, but we shouldn't have to be arguing about it. Thank you.

 

[jim hardy]

In no way I wanted to correct or even criticize one of your contribution.

No offense taken, no need to apologize. I was just afraid we'd overwhelm and discourage him with too much 'advanced' information.

I'm real sorry if i came across as argumentative. Nothing was further from my (alleged) mind.

old jim

 

[Baluncore]

In such a case, we have to use the phase criterion.

That is correct. An LC circuit will have a resonant frequency. If a high value resistor is used to couple a signal from a generator into the LC circuit, then at the resonant frequency the signal voltage at both ends of the resistor will be in phase. It is always easier to find the resonant frequency by reducing the phase difference across the resistor to zero than it is to find the exact centre of a broad resonance.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I'm real sorry if i came across as argumentative.

So no handbags at dawn then? Shame.

 

[jim hardy]

It is simply a matter of definition!

A well phrased definition always helps immensely. Phase works well but with just a DMM is hard to measure.

So no handbags at dawn then? Shame.

Naahhh, no fightin' words have been uttered that i know of.

old jim

 

[coolul007]

We'd be interested to see your plot. If you can scan it into a jpg and save on your computer , 'upload' button should let you insert it in a post.

Current should peak at resonance.

In a series LC circuit, in a parallel circuit it is at minimum at the resonance frequency.

 

[sophiecentaur]

In a series LC circuit, in a parallel circuit it is at minimum at the resonance frequency.

The current through the inductor peaks; the L and C are doing exactly the same think in both cases. This is the problem with using 'simple' terms like series and parallel. The only way to avoid talking at cross purposes is to refer to an annotated diagram.

 

[gary350]

<< Post edited slightly by the Mentors >>

First things first. Buy a good meter you don't need to over pay for a good meter. I bought a nice meter on ebay it came from China and cost me $76 free postage. It reads, inductance, capacitance, ohms, frequency, volts, amps, etc.

Just because a part is marked to be a certain value does not mean it really is. Some parts of 20%, some are 10%, some are 5%, some are 1% value. If your capacitor says 45uf it could be off 20% plus or minus. If you have a collection of parts test the value of 20 or 30 capacitors all marked 45uf see if you can fine 1 that really is 45 uf. You may need to solder several smaller capacitors in parallel to get exactly 45 uf.

Check your coil you need to know its real value. You can hand wind your own coils to get the value you need. You can add or remove turns to a factory made coil to change its value. You can put 2 or more coils in series to get the value that you need.

Once you have parts with the correct value solder them together then use your meter to check the resonance frequency.

There are formulas for finding resonance frequency. You can build a band pass filter or a filter that blocks the target frequency.

Get free TVs on Craigslist they are full of good free electronic parts. Remove the circuit boards and other useful parts then trash the rest. Lots of good aluminum heat sinks, wires, power resistors, capacitors, mosfets, and more.

 

[jim hardy]

original question was

Can anyone teach me how to calculate the resonant frequency.

1/2π√(LC) http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/serres.html

but you have to figure out what are L and C.

The current through the inductor peaks; the L and C are doing exactly the same think in both cases. This is the problem with using 'simple' terms like series and parallel. The only way to avoid talking at cross purposes is to refer to an annotated diagram.

That's a great point. We tend to take for granted our basics.
My Freshman EE textbook highlighted in bold print:
"The Voltage gain of a series resonant circuit can kill you."
"The Current gain of a parallel resonant circuit can kill you."

Those gains will be Q , which equals ratio X / R .
So if OP is studying a real circuit he needs to find both its reactance and its resistance.

I was relieved to see he's exciting it with a signal generator not his wall socket. A fellow can get hurt.

old jim