How to magnetize a concrete wall?

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Concrete is primarily an insulator and cannot be magnetized under normal conditions, even with high voltage, as it does not conduct electricity effectively. While electric current can generate a magnetic field, the concrete itself does not retain magnetization once the current ceases. The discussion highlights that concrete can contain metallic aggregates, which may become magnetized under specific conditions, such as during electric welding. Lightning strikes can theoretically magnetize steel reinforcement within concrete due to the heavy currents involved, but this does not apply to the concrete itself. Ultimately, ordinary concrete cannot be magnetized, and any magnetic properties would depend on the presence of metals or other materials within it.
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As we know that concrete is an insulator, but if I apply extremely high voltage through this concrete at a certain level, the concrete's property may become semi-conductor. In this way, will it be possible to magnetize a concrete wall using an extremely high voltage in this way?
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions
 
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There is no such thing as a "true" insulator because at a high enough voltage everything becomes a conductor. You would need a ridiculously high voltage for the concrete to conduct even a miniscule current. Even then the concrete won't become magnetized because the magnetic field is being generated by the electric current flowing through the concrete. As soon as the current stops the magnetic field goes away. Go read up on electricity and magnetism before you ask any more bizarre questions.
 
Dr_Morbius said:
There is no such thing as a "true" insulator because at a high enough voltage everything becomes a conductor. You would need a ridiculously high voltage for the concrete to conduct even a miniscule current. Even then the concrete won't become magnetized because the magnetic field is being generated by the electric current flowing through the concrete. As soon as the current stops the magnetic field goes away. Go read up on electricity and magnetism before you ask any more bizarre questions.

Magnetic field can magnetize any ordinary metal as shown on below video, if magnetic field is being generated by electric current flowing through the concrete, and concrete may contains any metal substance within its components, it should also be magnetized in this way, isn't it?

Does anyone have any suggestions on any mis-concept within my statement?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA3yCjjbG-0&feature=related
 
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oem7110 said:
As we know that concrete is an insulator, but if I apply extremely high voltage through this concrete at a certain level, the concrete's property may become semi-conductor. In this way, will it be possible to magnetize a concrete wall using an extremely high voltage in this way?
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions
Is this a theoretical or practical question? In other words, what are you trying to do? Are you considering making a magnetic concrete wall, perhaps?
Concrete is a mixture containing what's called an aggregate. You could use pieces of steel for the aggregate, or you could pre-position magnets in yet-to-cure concrete. Using one of these methods, you could make a magnetic concrete wall.
 
Nehmo said:
Concrete is a mixture containing what's called an aggregate. You could use pieces of steel for the aggregate, or you could pre-position magnets in yet-to-cure concrete. Using one of these methods, you could make a magnetic concrete wall.

Concrete contains sand too, which depends on where you live. Sand can contain quartz, magnetite, olivine, feldspar, obsidian, pieces of coral, shells, or dead sea organisms.

So in general, can I conclude that concrete wall can be magnetized if there is high enough electric current flowing through the concrete?

Does anyone have any suggestions on any mis-concept within my statement?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
You can't magnetize regular concrete.
 
And here you are again, arguing for the sake of arguing. Will you ever start listening to the answers given.
 
James Leighe said:
You can't magnetize regular concrete.

Can you explain little more please?

if magnetic field is being generated by electric current flowing through the concrete, and concrete may contains any metal substance within its components, it should also be magnetized in this way, isn't it? It is possible, isn't it?

Does anyone have any suggestions on any mis-concept within my statement?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
Of course.

There is no way to get electric current to flow trough concrete.

Even if you could, the magnetic field generated by the current would disappear once you stopped. The concrete is never magnetized.
 
  • #10
oem7110, Yes, I do have "Does anyone have any suggestions on any mis-concept within my statement?"

Ordinary concrete is an insulator...that means you CANNOT pass an electric current through it. If you increase the voltage the concrete does NOT become a semiconductor as you wrote in the OP. So, accept (and obey) the laws of physics: you CANNOT magnetize a concrete wall.

Now, if you make concrete with metallic materials, magnets, etc. you change the above statements because it would not be "Ordinary concrete".
 
  • #11
Bobbywhy said:
oem7110, Yes, I do have "Does anyone have any suggestions on any mis-concept within my statement?"

Ordinary concrete is an insulator...that means you CANNOT pass an electric current through it. If you increase the voltage the concrete does NOT become a semiconductor as you wrote in the OP. So, accept (and obey) the laws of physics: you CANNOT magnetize a concrete wall.

Now, if you make concrete with metallic materials, magnets, etc. you change the above statements because it would not be "Ordinary concrete".

If lighting from Thunder hits the concrete wall, how can it be grounded if you assume that ordinary concrete is an insulator? it does not seem making any sense, isn't it? so how can I accept or obey the laws of physics from your interpretation?

Does anyone have any suggestions on any mis-concept within my statement?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
  • #12
Lighting very rarely strikes concrete since it's such a good insulator and it would rather go somewhere else.

When it does it causes the concrete to explode from the heat generated (the entrapped moisture expands). In theory, you can get current to pass through concrete, but it takes so much voltage that it will explode, making it completely impossible in practice.

You really like concrete!

(also, lighting doesn't come from thunder, it's the other way around)

EDIT: I would also like to point out that the concrete really isn't 'grounded', it's just busting through the concrete to get to something that is / the ground itself.
 
  • #13
James Leighe said:
When it does it causes the concrete to explode from the heat generated (the entrapped moisture expands). In theory, you can get current to pass through concrete, but it takes so much voltage that it will explode, making it completely impossible in practice.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that the concrete really isn't 'grounded', it's just busting through the concrete to get to something that is / the ground itself.

Thanks you for your interpretation, you are talking about physics now from your interpretation, so if there is no chance to get current passing through concrete before it explodes, there is no way to magnetize a concrete, right?

Thanks everyone very much for suggestions
 
  • #15
No seems to have mentioned that many concrete structures are reinforced with Steel. That could change things a bit, in practice. It could explain how a particular concrete wall has been magnetised.
 
  • #16
James Leighe said:
No, there is no way to magnetize concrete because it's not magnetic.
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetism#Sources_of_magnetism

Not everything can be magnetized.

What about radiation from space? Would radiation change the property of reinforced concrete with Steel? Radiation can get through concrete without breaking it and reach the steel. Can steel be magnetized this way? furthermore, Can concrete be magnetized by radiation?

Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
  • #17
sophiecentaur said:
No seems to have mentioned that many concrete structures are reinforced with Steel. That could change things a bit, in practice. It could explain how a particular concrete wall has been magnetised.

Thank you very much for your suggestions
 
  • #18
We're too much into the realms of Science Fiction here. IFFFF there is steel reinforcing in concrete, it could possibly have become magnetised during electric welding. There are some heavy currents involved and that could generate a small magnetic field which could magnetise the steel.

There is no point in repeating the question about concrete becoming magnetised. The answer won't change.
What mechanism did you have in mind whereby this 'radiation' from space could magnetise ANYTHING? Are we talking Radio Frequency Radiation, Infra Red, Light, UV ? Magic rays (straight from the 1930s)?

If you want a Science discussion then you need to be Scientific!
 
  • #19
sophiecentaur said:
We're too much into the realms of Science Fiction here. IFFFF there is steel reinforcing in concrete, it could possibly have become magnetised during electric welding. There are some heavy currents involved and that could generate a small magnetic field which could magnetise the steel. [Good Points]

If you want a Science discussion then you need to be Scientific!

OK, let focus on heavy currents only, during the thunderstorm, there are many positive charges on the ground, please see following images, could this charges magnetize the steel within concrete? the positive charges can easily get through concrete with no problem.

Do you have any suggestions?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions

cloud_charge.jpg
 
  • #20
could this charges magnetize the steel within concrete?
No.
the positive charges can easily get through concrete with no problem.
Incorrect.

A lighting strike could in theory magnetize steel however.

EDIT: Make sure you read and understood that link I gave you, it will help you tremendously.
 
  • #21
James Leighe said:
A lighting strike could in theory magnetize steel however. [Good Points]

EDIT: Make sure you read and understood that link I gave you, it will help you tremendously.

Could you please briefly describe more on how lighting strike magnetizes steel? what is happening during this process? Furthermore, once the steel get magnetized from lighting strike, will this magnetic property be faded as time go by?

Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
  • #22
oem7110 said:
Once the steel get magnetized from lighting strike, will this magnetic property be faded as time go by?

Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions

Not really no, it will remain magnetic for quite a while.
 
  • #23
oem7110 said:
Could you please briefly describe more on how lighting strike magnetizes steel? what is happening during this process?

It will align some of the magnetic domains present in the metal.

Please read the link I gave you, it would have answered all of these questions.
 
  • #24
@OEM
Charges do not cause a magnetic field. MOVING charges (=Current) produce a magnetic field. Heavy current pulses can flow during a lightning strikes.

If you want a chance of understanding any of this then there are certain 'rules' that apply in Physics / Science. All the terms mean something specific and you need to use them correctly and to be careful when you interpret what someone tells you. You must use Charge, Current Magnetic field etc. consistently so that we're all reading from the same hymn sheet.
A french person will laugh at you (they can be very intolerant, at times) and cannot be at all helpful if you don't use the right vocabulary when asking for the way to the station. Same with Science - vocabulary really does count. It's not just B/S.
 
  • #25
James Leighe said:
Not really no, it will remain magnetic for quite a while.

Once steel gets magnetized, will it be no easy way to remove this magnetic property without using a thousand degrees fahrenheit? right?

Thanks everyone very much for suggestions
 
  • #26
oem7110 said:
Once steel gets magnetized, will it be no easy way to remove this magnetic property without using a thousand degrees fahrenheit? right?

Correct.

There are some complicated and expensive ways to try and demagnetize objects but only like NASA uses those.

EDIT: This turns out to not be completely true, as alternating magnetic fields applied about the object can do the job.
 
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  • #27
sophiecentaur said:
@OEM
Charges do not cause a magnetic field. MOVING charges (=Current) produce a magnetic field. Heavy current pulses can flow during a lightning strikes.

If you want a chance of understanding any of this then there are certain 'rules' that apply in Physics / Science. All the terms mean something specific and you need to use them correctly and to be careful when you interpret what someone tells you. You must use Charge, Current Magnetic field etc. consistently so that we're all reading from the same hymn sheet.
A french person will laugh at you (they can be very intolerant, at times) and cannot be at all helpful if you don't use the right vocabulary when asking for the way to the station. Same with Science - vocabulary really does count. It's not just B/S.

So if I can generate some heavy current pulses into the wall, can I magnetize the reinforce concrete wall this way? Could you please tell me more about the general requirement of heavy current pulses? What heavy current pulses do on steel during this process?

In this world, because you guys are so nice, so many people from different background can understand and apply physics more.

Thank everyone very much for suggestions
 
  • #28
oem7110 said:
So if I can generate some heavy current pulses into the wall, can I
magnetize the reinforce concrete wall this way?

You can send current through and magnetize steel, so if the steel was sticking out on at least two ends you could send current through it to magnetize it.

If the steel was fully embedded in concrete, you could place a strong magnet near it and the steel would gain some small amount of magnetism.

I'm going to suggest again that you read the link I gave you.

EDIT: *waits with bated breath for next concrete related magnetism question*
 
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  • #29
James Leighe said:
You can send current through and magnetize steel, so if the steel was sticking out on at least two ends you could send current through it to magnetize it.

If the steel was fully embedded in concrete, you could place a strong magnet near it and the steel would gain some small amount of magnetism.

I'm going to suggest again that you read the link I gave you.

A current 'through' the steel would not magnetise it - you need the current to be at right angles to the steel you want to magnetise.

Producing a high enough magnetic field around your steel rods (assuming there are, in fact, rods in there!) is not too easy. You would need to make an electromagnet with a large diameter coil round a big lump of iron and pass a heavy current through it for a while. A car battery would give you a few hundred amps, briefly, but you would have the problem of coil resistance. You want as many turns as possible of as thick cable you can afford - only, perhaps, to find that the result is not enough for what you wanted. It could turn out to be seriously heavy engineering.

Is this for a plot line in a book!? It sounds a bit like it could be.
 
  • #30
sophiecentaur said:
A current 'through' the steel would not magnetise it - you need the current to be at right angles to the steel you want to magnetise.

Assuming the reinforcing steel is in a grid pattern would it not magnetize the bars that are perpendicular to the path of the current?

I guess that's generally a bad assumption anyhow.
 
  • #31
Good point but they are each 'radial' to each other. I don't think the field pattern would be optimal.
 
  • #32
sophiecentaur said:
... you need the current to be at right angles to the steel you want to magnetise.
...

During a lightning strike, it seems no way to let the heavy current pulses flow at right angles to the steel in order to magnetise it, because steel is covered with concrete.
Will the requirement to magnetise steel be different during a lightning strike?
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
  • #33
oem7110 said:
During a lightning strike, it seems no way to let the heavy current pulses flow at right angles to the steel in order to magnetise it, because steel is covered with concrete.

Pretty correct.

But it's possible that the lightning could blow through the concrete, then travel along the internal steel rods into the ground leaving some amount of magnetism.
 
  • #34
James Leighe said:
Pretty correct.

But it's possible that the lightning could blow through the concrete, then travel along the internal steel rods into the ground leaving some amount of magnetism.

What if the heavy current pulses hit the ground, grass, tree, soil whatever, and the current pulses pass through moisted soil connected with the exposed steel under the ground, which can be reached at right angle, would it be look practical for steel to get magnetized in this way? Does anyone know whether the steel within the concrete wall exposed into the soil or not during building the foundation?

Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
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  • #35
oem7110 said:
What if the heavy current pulses hit the ground, grass, tree, soil whatever, and pass through moisted soil connected with the exposed steel under the ground, which can be reached at right angle, would it be look practical for steel to get magnetized in real life?

No.

If lighting struck near the steel, but not on it, current would not flow through the steel and there wold be no chance of the steel becoming magnetized.

EDIT: Unless... and now we are getting even more far fetched... The lightning struck a bar of metal near the wall, which in turn would magnetized the steel inside the wall slightly.

Really just having the lighting strike near the wall might induce a tiny field into the steel as well I suppose.

But not a practical / noticeable field.
 
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  • #36
James Leighe said:
No.

If lighting struck near the steel, but not on it, current would not flow through the steel and there wold be no chance of the steel becoming magnetized.

EDIT: Unless... and now we are getting even more far fetched... The lightning struck a bar of metal near the wall, which in turn would magnetized the steel inside the wall slightly.

The soil is wet, which should be a good conductor for a heavy current pulses, isn't it?

Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
  • #37
I edited my post a bit more.

Lighting striking near the wall (with steel at a right angle to the lighting inside) might magnetize the steel some tiny amount just due to the flow of current through the air itself.

But this is well beyond reasonable.
 
  • #38
And by that I mean that the magnetism would be extremely slight.
 
  • #39
James Leighe said:
I edited my post a bit more.

Lighting striking near the wall (with steel at a right angle to the lighting inside) might magnetize the steel some tiny amount just due to the flow of current through the air itself.

But this is well beyond reasonable.

Do you mean a Lightning rod? which is near the wall or the steel within the concrete wall.

I think there is enough for discussion, and I don't expect anyone knows how lighting moves in air and magnetize the steel in this details, I understand the basic issues that is the most important.

If anyone have any more suggestions, you are welcome.

Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
  • #40
Steel within the wall.

I'm going to suggest again that if you are this interested you should look into how these things work.
A good place to start is that link I gave you.
 
  • #41
oem7110 said:
... Does anyone know whether the steel within the concrete wall exposed into the soil or not during building the foundation?...
Rebar is http://www.wichita.gov/NR/rdonlyres/D0D3A2EB-8BC7-49F9-83E3-ED41954AFBCE/0/rebarground.pdf nowadays.
oem7110 said:
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Suggestions for what? I don't understand what you are trying to do. You seem intent on finding something confirming concrete can be magnetized by electricity going through it. It can't. Concrete isn't a conductor, except for the water it contains. And simple conducting doesn't magnetize permanently anyway.
 
  • #42
I think there is enough for discussion, and I don't expect anyone knows how lighting moves in air and magnetize the steel in this details, I understand the basic issues that is the most important.

It's not complicated, but at this point I'm just going to direct you to that link I gave you.

I don't think I want to explain every aspect of electricity and magnetism when you could do a little of the work yourself!

This forum is best used alongside personal research IMO.
 
  • #43
I can't believe this post went to 3 pages. His question was answered like 20 times but he kept repeating it. YOU CAN'T MAGNETIZE CONCRETE. PERIOD.

By the way the video you linked to that shows someone magnetizing metallic items is deceptive. All the items that were magnetized in that video are made of iron.

He also asked a ridiculous question about water clusters that was answered like 20 times. This guy is a troll or a crackpot.
 
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  • #44
Dr_Morbius said:
By the way the video you linked to that shows someone magnetizing metallic items is deceptive. All the items that were magnetized in that video are made of iron.
...

Could you please explain little bit more why this video is deceptive on magnetizing metallic items in term of physics point of views rather than your personal opinion?

Thanks everyone very much for any suggestions
 
  • #45
Umm, he said why in his post.

All in all this thread was pfunny, I'll never think of concrete the same way again.
 
  • #46
  • #47
Hey guys how can I magnetize my cat!?
 
  • #48
Maybe if your cat is reinforced with steel!
 
  • #49
oem7110, you clearly have an idea of what you want to do with this. Rather than us trying to guess what you want doing and you having to keep asking virtually the same question in a dozen different ways, why don't you skip ahead a bit. Tell us what you really want to do and we can help you with that.
 
  • #50
He's definitely a troll.
 

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