HS students: what's a 'C' on your grade scale?

[ek]

Okay, we better check what we mean when we're talking about percentages here. We're not talking about percentile ranking among students; we don't fail 60% of the students (does the Canadian system fail 50%?). We're talking about percentage of the material mastered as determined on an exam or through graded assignments.

I really don't know how you can get any reasonable assessment of students with such a compressed grade scale; only a 20% point range to determine the entire ranking of a class? With only 5 percentage points separating an A from a B, those teachers must have quite a challenge in putting together an exam that is well-written enough to sort with that degree of precision! Then again, maybe they do take it seriously and expect the students to master 80% of the material to pass the class. I've been concerned about whether a student who has only learned 60% of the material taught in high school should really be allowed to graduate. Maybe that school in Iowa has really raised the bar and decided that it's not okay to only know 60% of the material. Maybe it's their way of raising standardized test scores too; if you fail them out and don't promote them and encourage them to drop out of school at 16, they'll never take those standardized tests that the No Child Left Behind Act thinks are a good measure of school quality.

I sure would want to dig into the motives of a school that decides anything below 80% is failing.

Sorry, I can see how what I said was ambiguous.

All the numbers we use for grades are raw grades, not percentiles or anything like that. The 80% comment came from the fact that only about 20% of the kids at my old high school average over 78% and thus 80% of them would fail in a system like that Iowa one.

Very few kids failed at my school, but then again my school was well above average and is in an affluent area. Lesser schools probably fail 10% of kids. Actually, I really don't know how many kids fail. I suppose the Ministry of Education keeps track of that stuff, don't know if it gets published though.

Our University entrance requirements are also "lower" than American schools I think. When in actual fact they are probably similar or more stringent.

For my school, the University of Victoria, which is considered one of the better schools in Canada, the entrance cutoff average was ~83% last year. It varies from year to year between 78-85. And these are high standards. Not many kids achieve grades this good. In fact the provincial government is taking to measures to lower the requirements, because they are so high. Averaging 90% gets you an automatic (pretty much anyway) $2000 scholarship (pays for a semester). Probably about 10% of the people who go to UVic got this scholarship I would think. Averaging 90% here is actually something to be proud of, very few kids do it. Not because we're all dumb, but because we don't get babied in school and get given 100% in a class that we actually got 60 in just because it is "hard".

 

[quasar987]

Do you guys have "intermediate rating" such as

A+
A
A-
B+
B
etc.

??

 

[ek]

Do you guys have "intermediate rating" such as

A+
A
A-
B+
B
etc.

??

British Columbia doesn't. None of those anyway. Only C+ and C- for some reason.

Here at UVic we have those grades though. A+ A A- B+ B B- C+ C C- D F

 

[Dracovich]

I agree with ek, SOMETHING must be different. Back home (Iceland) we used a 0-10 scale, where you can get 0-10 and half scores as well (7,5 for example). Although i don't have any exact scores i'd guess that the average lies between 6-7. I got around 8,35 out of "Pre-high school" or whatever to call it (graduated this at 16), then we go on to 4 years of "high school", and my school required at least a 8.0 to enter, so we had pretty high standards, and i'd guess that the average when graduating was around 6-7 as well there (i only got 7,2 then and was above average i believe).

So SOMETHING must be different, either that or we're just a lot less intelligent then Americans, which doesn't seem to be the case when looking at those math studies for example with kids around the same age.

 

[cepheid]

Highschools in Alberta use just a percentage. The Average grade to get into university is 86%, (comming from high school). To get scholarships and what not you need a for sure <90%. Also it is important to remember that the average scores on the Final Exams are 75%. Alot of people don't get into university there first try...

So therefore "our" (canadian) education system does not allow people to get through too easily.

Admission averages depend on the faculty you're entering. 86% sounds too high for Faculty of Science at University of Alberta (I know because I attended that university in my first year). I thought their cutoff was in the high seventies. So either it has gone up universally since then (umm...3 years ago only), or you weren't referring to the Faculty of Science (don't remember what the engineering entrance averages were), or maybe U of C is just that much harder! But that sounds wacky...I don't think so somehow.

 

[mattmns]

90 =< A =< 100
80 =< B < 90
70 =< C < 80
60 =< D < 70
0 =< F < 60

US. Public

 

[jtbell]

I think it's kind of silly to get worked up over variations in percentage scales for letter grades. After all, instructors can get the final letter grades to work out pretty much any way they want, by choosing the appropriate mix of hard and easy questions on exams, by adjusting the amount of partial credit they give on homework problems, or adjusting grading standards on essays, etc.

This assumes the instructors make up their own tests, which is usually the case in the USA. If you have standardized tests written by a third party, that are the same for all instructors, the situation is rather different.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Mine is exactly the same as Andromeda321's scale.
94-100 A
85-93 B
78-84 C...
Public School in Iowa.

90 =< A =< 100
80 =< B < 90
70 =< C < 80
60 =< D < 70
0 =< F < 60

US. Public

Here's what confuses me. Let's say Student X from ProdQuanta's school applies to the same college as Student Y from matt's school.
Student X scored 93% in all her classes. Her transcript shows straight B's. Student Y scored 90% in all her classes. Her transcript shows straight A's. Unless, the college admissions department sees the actual percentage score for the classes, and not just letter grades, Student Y clearly has the advantage even if Student X was the better scholar.

 

[mathwonk]

it is probably a mistake to worry about what numbers are used for the grades. the real matter is how difficult is it to get those numbers.

i.e. numbers on their own mean nothing. in 1951, $40 was the entire day's receipts from my uncle's restaurant, and I was terrified to carry it across the parking lot to the bank.

today $40 might not buy three steaks.

do you understand?

I can write a test, or refer you to e.g. the Putnam exam, on which 10% is deserving of great honor.

i can write another test on which any idiot will get 100%.

so you are probably asking the wrong question. in any event, the intelligent student will always seek out the most difficult teacher, as there they will learn the most, and stack up best against the outside world afterwards.

peace,

 

[Math Is Hard]

it is stupid to worry about what numbers are used for the grades.

Unless those numbers get you kicked off your high school drill team- which of course does not mean a damn thing to you, but to my sister it was devastating.

 

[Moonbear]

Here's what confuses me. Let's say Student X from ProdQuanta's school applies to the same college as Student Y from matt's school.
Student X scored 93% in all her classes. Her transcript shows straight B's. Student Y scored 90% in all her classes. Her transcript shows straight A's. Unless, the college admissions department sees the actual percentage score for the classes, and not just letter grades, Student Y clearly has the advantage even if Student X was the better scholar.

It's probably less of an issue than dealing with whether Student X's classes covered the same material as student Y's classes, or if Student X's teachers wrote easier tests or graded on a curve so the average student got a C no matter what percentage value was assigned to it than Student Y's teachers, or even if Student Z's teachers decided to give all their students A's. Even within the same school district, different teachers teach the same subject differently.

The transcript will also include information aside from the GPA, such as class ranking, which gives a better idea of how that student is performing compared to other classmates experiencing the same grading system, and should also include an explanation on it of what percentages the letters represent, as well as the grade point value of each letter grade. Every transcript I've ever gotten from high school or universities has this information printed on the back.

And, there is always standardized testing. It'll make you wonder if a student with straight Cs scores a 1600 on the SAT and one with straight As scores an 1100. You'll want to know why there's such a discrepancy.

Percentages don't mean any more than letters when it comes to grading. I have a sense of how much material I think a student needs to know in my class to pass. On a test of 100 points, I write it so that the average student will get 70-79% correct, which is a C. Now, if an administrator tells me that a C is actually 80-85%, then we just play games with numbers. Anyone with 78% or 79% correct on the test gets an 85 in the grade book, 80 or 81% becomes an 86%, etc. This keeps everyone happy: I give a test and grade in a way that I feel comfortable with as a reasonable way to sort out my A and B and C students, the students are happy that their raw scores get scaled up, and the administration is happy that I've passed the right number of students. Of course the other way to adjust scores up is to do so at the end of the term and tack on a "class participation" grade, which is a great method of adjusting grades, and also gives a chance to bump a student up another letter if they are borderline and really put their best effort into class discussions.

I still remember one class in college where the high score on the first exam was a 30 or 35%. I think I earned a C on that exam with a score of 18%. Even after we got the exam back, we couldn't figure out where the other 70% of the questions came from. It wasn't covered in the lab, it wasn't covered in the lecture, we couldn't find anything on it in the textbook. It was the most bizarre exam I ever experienced, and we never did figure out what was running through the prof's mind when he wrote it, but it does a good job of illustrating how meaningless absolute percentages are.

 

[mathwonk]

Math is hard: I apologize for the bluntness of those comments. I know to you and your sister that being on the high school drill team is a big deal at the moment. But the idea was probably that improving her schoolwork would likely be more beneficial to her in the long run than being on that drill team.

My own story is this; After being state champ in high school at math, and a plus 1500 sat scorer (before the grades were artificially inflated), I went to a difficult college where the grades were much harder to get than they were in my podunk high school. I once scored about 18% on a math exam. They ahd to give me about 10 free points to give me an F !

In spite of trying to some extent, i failed out and had to work in a factory for a year to regain admission, even though in an easier school i might have been valedictorian, or at least an easy success.

After a long time, I valued those higher standards at my college, and strove to achieve those same standards. After a much longer time, I actually became a (small) world recognized expert in a small area of my specialty.

A;larger world of possibilities opened to me, and I was even invited back as a visiting scholar at the school from which i had earlier failed out.

My whole life was elevated, because someone held me to a higher standard than I thought reasonable at first. I hope your sister too is inspired to achieve at a level her peers in easier schools are not. It seems someone believes she is capable of more than she herself realizes at the moment. It could well be true.

best wishes,

mathwonk

 

[franznietzsche]

Highschools in Alberta use just a percentage. The Average grade to get into university is 86%, (comming from high school). To get scholarships and what not you need a for sure <90%. Also it is important to remember that the average scores on the Final Exams are 75%. Alot of people don't get into university there first try...

So therefore "our" (canadian) education system does not allow people to get through too easily.

Was i talking about Alberta? Why are you generalizing when you can't?

At any rate, little tidbit: The first year the California High School Exit exam was implement more than 2/3 of students failed. They decided not to require the test that year rather than fail that many high school students. Did i mention that the governor then has since been thrown out of office?

 

[Math Is Hard]

My whole life was elevated, because someone held me to a higher standard than I thought reasonable at first. I hope your sister too is inspired to achieve at a level her peers in easier schools are not. It seems someone believes she is capable of more than she herself realizes at the moment. It could well be true.

Thanks, mathwonk. I sincerely hope that one day she'll find the same sort of inspiration that you did. She gets frustrated too easily, I think, and tends to give up too soon.

Your tenacity is a great gift, and it has done amazing things for you. You're obviously a brilliant person, but without tenacity you never would have gotten where you wanted to go. I wish I knew how to express to her the importance of this quality.

But she's 16 and knows everything and I am just a well-meaning idiot that she humors now and then.

 

[mathwonk]

Thank you very much for the appreciative words, Math is hard. I was influenced once by someone who told me the three key things to remember in order to be a success:

1) never give up,

2) never give up, and

3) never give up.


someday your sister will also appreciate your concern, love, and help.

 

[SahinTC]

97-100: A+
93-96 A
90-92 A-
87-89 B+
83-86 B
80-82 B-
77-79 C+
73-76 C
70-72 C-
<70 = fail.

 

[Poop-Loops]

My school district had the same grading as SahinTC's. 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B, 90-100 is an A, with -'s and +'s depending on the teacher. But anything under 70 you fail. Not that it was hard to do in the first place. =/

PL

 

[Math Is Hard]

I had it a lot easier. In my high school days you could actually pass with a D! (which was a 60)

 

[Data]

Ontario (public):

A+: 90 - 100
A: 85 - 89
A-: 80 - 84
B: 70 - 79
C: 60 - 69
D: 50 - 59

now, of course, there's the question as to whether the difference in grading scales is representative of a difference in expectations, or a difference in difficulty of the curriculum, or just in how marks are assigned and removed~

 

[Artermis]

First of all, Math Is Hard, Mathwonk -- Thank you for your contributions to such an enriching thread =)
@MIH and mathwonk

I can sort of understand what your sister is going through, MIH, I'm 16, male, living in Toronto, Ontario, Canada and not an especially high achiever. I do try hard because I am very ambitious in my university and eventual graduate school goals, but I get frustrated easily because I attend a relatively fast paced, intelligent school, and am surrounded by peers that are really excellent scholars.

@mathwonk

What I greatly dislike about my school is, although it is a recognized school, it's often very hard on its students and high marks are quite hard to earn. My frustration stems that when I apply for University they will see my under 90 average (relatively high 80's) with marks floating around the mid-high 80's,some 90's range, while somebody in a public school with better conditions (lenient teachers, easier tests, which has been discussed previously etc...) might have a 95 average. This is simply not uncommon, I know people like this.

I am convinced that I am the better scholar, anyone who knew it personally would know that my under 90 average is clearly worth at least a 90 average compared to the majority of other schools.

However, this directly affects my University program applications. Because I live in Canada and plan to apply to Canadian Universities (University of Toronto Schools, McGill, McMaster, Queens... etc) they simply (especially U of T) have such an incredibly high number of applicants that (correct me if I am wrong), that they feed the transcripts through computers and pick out people with the cutoff averages for the programs. From what I understand, they do not have the time to individually look at my application and say "Oh look, he comes from a tough school with a tough curriculum and tough standards, let's add a few points to his average". I especially need a high average because I plan on applying to science or life science programs in which they are very competitive and experience high cutoff grades.

So, from my admitted limited understanding of the University selection process, I am disadvantaged because of my advantaged school.

Here's my Percent Range/Letter Grading system if it's of any help:

(Toronto, Ontario, Canada, University of Toronto Schools)
90 - 100 A+
85 - 90 A
80 - 84 A-

77 - 79 B+
74 - 76 B
70 - 73 B-

67 - 69 C+
64 - 66 C
60 - 63 C-

Same patterning goes on with <50 = F

-Art

 

[ShawnD]

Why is it that the US is consistently not ranked near the top in science and math scores on tests when compared to other nations, but we produce a lot of the top scientists in almost every field?

St00pid people bring down the average


In Alberta, Canada, we don't have letters. It's numbers all the way. 49 and lower is a fail. 80 and up is honors.
University used to use the 9 point grade system, but they recently switched over to the 4 point system. I don't really know how either system works.


edit: I didn't realize an Albertan had already posted

Highschools in Alberta use just a percentage. The Average grade to get into university is 86%, (comming from high school). To get scholarships and what not you need a for sure <90%. Also it is important to remember that the average scores on the Final Exams are 75%. Alot of people don't get into university there first try...

So therefore "our" (canadian) education system does not allow people to get through too easily.

Are you sure you live in the same province as me? University of Alberta accepted me into engineering with a 79% average and I was almost failing English (passed English 30 with a 54%). I opted out of that and went to NAIT instead. NAIT is a well accredited school even though it takes people who have a 65% average or better. My current average is 84%, and I'm elligable for a LOT of scholarships; no less than 20. Getting them is tricky though because there are hundreds of other people applying for them.

 

[JamesU]

Here's my Percent Range/Letter Grading system if it's of any help:

(Toronto, Ontario, Canada, University of Toronto Schools)
90 - 100 A+
85 - 90 A
80 - 84 A-

77 - 79 B+
74 - 76 B
70 - 73 B-

67 - 69 C+
64 - 66 C
60 - 63 C-

Same patterning goes on with <50 = F

-Art

OMFG I wish I was at your school. I bet everyone passes there!

 

[ShawnD]

OMFG I wish I was at your school. I bet everyone passes there!

You'd be surprised how easy it is to fail. University is hard, especially when the person marking your stuff is an idiot. For one report I did, I lost no less than 20% because of 1 mistake in a 10 page report. I forgot to Q-test out a value (outlier), and everything based on that was marked wrong. Mean? Wrong! Standard deviation? Wrong! T score, F score? Comparing methods? All wrong!

It depends who marks your papers. Seriously.

 

[T@P]

where i live, its really relaxed, (college), like 88+ is an A, 75+ is a B, 60something is a C, and below is bad.

but sadly if you screw up one one question in an exam lose 17 points...

 

[Artermis]

OMFG I wish I was at your school. I bet everyone passes there!

You don't know my school. Failing isn't considered a possibility, and excellence isn't an option, it's required. =(

 

[JamesU]

It kinda seems that way with your grading system

 

[Data]

The grade scale tells you nothing about how easy it is to pass or fail (as others have explained).

 

[ek]

Instead of putting money into their education system, the US government just tells schools to inflate grades and makes the SAT way easier to disguise the bigger problem, which is the US school system sucks and is getting worse and worse every year.

I posted my HS grade scheme earlier in the thread, here is my university scheme, in case anybody is interested:

University of Victoria (British Columbia, Canada)

90 - A+
85 - A
80 - A-
75 - B+
70 - B
65 - B-
60 - C+
55 - C
50 - D
<50 - F

 

[Andromeda321]

*Looks at grades, makes plans to transfer to the University of Victoria*

 

[sanfty]

a c at my school here in dallas is around about 13-15%