Job Skills I finally got my bachelor's degree in physics, now what?

[Ahmed Abdalla]

It's been 3 months so I'm sure this is still very early to "give up" on the job search, but I was wondering how other people did after their BS/BA in physics from college! The job search is for sure hard and I realized a little too late that I lacked some experience in CS. I wasn't planning on going to grad school after graduating, wanted to hop into industry because that's what my advisors and professors suggested me (thanks guys). It seems that I need to go to grad school anyway, and where I'm at right now is deciding on where to go. Part of me thinks about getting masters in electrical engineering or something like that. I hate that this is driven solely by the fact that I want a job though, so I'm going to be sleeping on that thought for a while, but I don't know what my physics degree can really do to me right now. I was wondering if anyone has similar experiences and how did they deal with it! What graduate program did you choose to go into after graduating? Also if you did land a job with a BS, if you don't mind me asking, what was it!

 

[alan2]

Go to grad school. If your objective is to get a job you should think about an engineering masters. I know a lot of people who did that with a BS in physics. They had to catch up a little but it was fairly easy for most of them.

 

[Zap]

I wouldn't say a master's degree is easy. I think it was one of the worst experiences of my life. Having a degree in applied math is not the worst thing ever. I think you should keep looking for a job before you commit yourself to more school. Sure, an MS in engineering will get you a job, but do you know what kind of work an electrical engineer does? How do you know you will like it or that it will be easy? I guarantee that it probably won't be easy, and if you end up hating it, it will be two years of hell for you.

Don't rush into the school thing. There are some business analyst or data analyst type positions that may hire you for your math skills and programming aptitude. It seems to be more rare these days, but I at least know one physics student who was hired as an engineer. There are other jobs that may hire you, like QC/QA technician or whatever. I would have joined the military if it wasn't for a brief period I had with mental health issues. Keep searching. School is not your only option.

I think I have a pretty good shot at a data analyst/business analyst role. I have had a few phone interviews for those kinds of positions, which is more progress than I've made when applying to R&D or associate scientist/engineer positions. If that doesn't work out, I had one offer to extract THC from weed. It's a pretty crumby job but at least somewhat related to my education, and there is promotion potential in extraction. If you can pass a background investigation, you can apply to the CIA or Department of Defense for just about anything you want. They seem to offer good training programs.

My suggestion is to give the school thing a break. You already committed four or five years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars to that crazy place. You came out with less than what you thought you would, and now they want you to go back. Give it some thought before you commit more of your time and money to that crazy place. Grad school will most likely not be enjoyable. I know someone who spent two years and around 15 thousand dollars on an MS, failed the qualifier for the 2nd time and can’t even graduate. Give yourself a break from this kind of madness you can only find in school. Three months is nothing. I know people who spent 8 months or more looking for their first out of college job, even those with engineering degrees. You have to decide what you want, not go to school because you don’t know.

Think about this, after another two years of school, you're going to be in the same position you are now, applying to jobs and hoping to get your first out of college career. Are you trying to postpone this dilemma? I'd rather have two years of work experience than two more years of test taking experience. At least your advisers didn't shove grad school down your throat. There is still hope for you to move on to the next stage of life. Where do you want to be in the next two years? A recent grad?

 

[Ahmed Abdalla]

I wouldn't say a master's degree is easy. I think it was one of the worst experiences of my life. Having a degree in applied math is not the worst thing ever. I think you should keep looking for a job before you commit yourself to more school. Sure, an MS in engineering will get you a job, but do you know what kind of work an electrical engineer does? How do you know you will like it or that it will be easy? I guarantee that it probably won't be easy, and if you end up hating it, it will be two years of hell for you.

Don't rush into the school thing. There are some business analyst or data analyst type positions that may hire you for your math skills and programming aptitude. It seems to be more rare these days, but I at least know one physics student who was hired as an engineer. There are other jobs that may hire you, like QC/QA technician or whatever. I would have joined the military if it wasn't for a brief period I had with mental health issues. Keep searching. School is not your only option.

I think I have a pretty good shot at a data analyst/business analyst role. I have had a few phone interviews for those kinds of positions, which is more progress than I've made when applying to R&D or associate scientist/engineer positions. If that doesn't work out, I had one offer to extract THC from weed. It's a pretty crumby job but at least somewhat related to my education, and there is promotion potential in extraction. If you can pass a background investigation, you can apply to the CIA or Department of Defense for just about anything you want. They seem to offer good training programs.

My suggestion is to give the school thing a break. You already committed four or five years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars to that crazy place. You came out with less than what you thought you would, and now they want you to go back. Give it some thought before you commit more of your time and money to that crazy place. Grad school will most likely not be enjoyable. I know someone who spent two years and around 15 thousand dollars on an MS, failed the qualifier for the 2nd time and can’t even graduate. Give yourself a break from this kind of madness you can only find in school. Three months is nothing. I know people who spent 8 months or more looking for their first out of college job, even those with engineering degrees. You have to decide what you want, not go to school because you don’t know.

Think about this, after another two years of school, you're going to be in the same position you are now, applying to jobs and hoping to get your first out of college career. Are you trying to postpone this dilemma? I'd rather have two years of work experience than two more years of test taking experience. At least your advisers didn't shove grad school down your throat. There is still hope for you to move on to the next stage of life. Where do you want to be in the next two years? A recent grad?

Thanks for responding, this was a very informative answer and really helped my open my eyes more regarding more school work. I will look into the options you suggested as well :)

 

[Zap]

You can take out loans and go back to school at any time you want. There's no point in rushing into it. You may find funding for your masters, but the pay typically sucks, and you might have to take out loans or work two jobs anyway depending on your financial situation.

 

[alan2]

I think you guys are giving him bad advice. He has a bachelors in physics. That won’t get him a job. If he wanted a job after undergrad he should have studied engineering in the first place.

 

[symbolipoint]

I think you guys are giving him bad advice. He has a bachelors in physics. That won’t get him a job. If he wanted a job after undergrad he should have studied engineering in the first place.

The point is, he now has (just) the bachelor degree in Physics. What should have been done - not in that situation anymore. What to do NOW is important. Either get job soon, or return to school for something practical. Short on his computer programming skills? Do one or two courses. Short on other practical skills? Identify them, and find some course work or something, to build them.

 

[Zap]

I know at least one person who has gotten a really good job as a systems engineer with just a bachelors in physics. I wasn’t so lucky, but it can happen. Why not at least try before jumping into more school?

I know someone with a film degree who is making 50k at Home Depot doing God knows what. I've no idea what he does, but he claimed to make 50k. If someone with a film degree can accomplish that, why can't someone with a physics degree accomplish more? Three months is not long enough to warrant giving up.

 

[Choppy]

If you haven't seen these already, you might want to check out:
Businesses who've recently hired multiple physics BSc holders
A state-by-state breakdown
Data on initial employment

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of physics BSc holders do just fine in terms of employment, but it's not uncommon for newly graduated students to struggle a little in figuring out how to transition from the academic world into the commercial one. Physics is an academic field, as opposed to a professional one. As such, it's rare to find someone looking to hire a physics graduate specifically. What you need to do is figure out what skills you have that you can market, or as has been said, how to further develop those skills.

 

[Zap]

If you haven't seen these already, you might want to check out:
Businesses who've recently hired multiple physics BSc holders
A state-by-state breakdown
Data on initial employment

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of physics BSc holders do just fine in terms of employment, but it's not uncommon for newly graduated students to struggle a little in figuring out how to transition from the academic world into the commercial one. Physics is an academic field, as opposed to a professional one. As such, it's rare to find someone looking to hire a physics graduate specifically. What you need to do is figure out what skills you have that you can market, or as has been said, how to further develop those skills.

This is what I wish I had done instead of jumping into graduate school without really knowing what I was getting myself into. I just didn't have a job and didn't know what to do. School sucks the vast majority of the time. If you can avoid it and start your professional career sooner, I would recommend doing that. Of course, if you have to go back to school in order to get your dream job, I would encourage that, but it seems as though OP was considering grad school simply because he is having trouble starting his career. If you want a job, keep looking for a job. If you really want to go back to school, then go back to school, but going back to school because you want a job sounds counterproductive to me.

If after 8 months of job searching you are still unemployed or underemployed and wishing you had a different career, then maybe consider the grad school thing. There's no point in rushing into it. You'll always have the option to go back to school. My roommate worked as a restaurant server for like 8 months after graduating before he finally got his career started in CAD modeling. Imagine if he gave up and went to grad school during that time. He'd be still in school as we speak trying to get another degree instead of starting his career.

Take this time to apply to jobs and figure out exactly what you want to be doing and where you want to see yourself 5 years from now. If you find out that you already meet the education requirements to pursue what you want to do. Guess what? You don't have to go back to school. If you lack the experience you need, there are other options. For example, my roommate built a 3D printer and was CAD modeling and 3D printing as a hobby the entire time he was serving tables. There are also student training programs, post grad internships, co-ops and stuff like that. If you find out you absolutely want to be an electrical engineer and can't get into it otherwise, then maybe consider an MS in electrical engineering.

 

[alan2]

The point is, he now has (just) the bachelor degree in Physics. What should have been done - not in that situation anymore. What to do NOW is important. Either get job soon, or return to school for something practical. Short on his computer programming skills? Do one or two courses. Short on other practical skills? Identify them, and find some course work or something, to build them.

I understand that’s the point. He’s found out that a BS in physics doesn’t get you a job. That’s why I told him to get his MSE. He’ll likely have a job before he graduates.

 

[Zap]

He’s found out that a BS in physics doesn’t get you a job. That’s why I told him to get his MSE. He’ll likely have a job before he graduates.

Have you experienced this, or is this something someone you know has experienced?

 

[Salviati]

One path would be to develop a computer science and programming background that can convince employers that you're a better hire than a CS student for a software development position. There are positions like this where a a physics degree is appreciated. Some people speak of self-study and building a portfolio but for me personally this was not very effective. Another option would be go to graduate school in applied mathematics or physics or engineering with a topic that is computational heavy where you can learn programming simultaneously. You'll have to learn a lot on your own but at least this is something hard that you can show employers and you would have gained a lot of useful experience in the process. Some graduate programs are even oriented towards career development with the expectation that their graduates go on to industry rather than continuing to a PhD and academia, offering internships and things like that.

 

[Ahmed Abdalla]

This is what I wish I had done instead of jumping into graduate school without really knowing what I was getting myself into. I just didn't have a job and didn't know what to do. School sucks the vast majority of the time. If you can avoid it and start your professional career sooner, I would recommend doing that. Of course, if you have to go back to school in order to get your dream job, I would encourage that, but it seems as though OP was considering grad school simply because he is having trouble starting his career. If you want a job, keep looking for a job. If you really want to go back to school, then go back to school, but going back to school because you want a job sounds counterproductive to me.

If after 8 months of job searching you are still unemployed or underemployed and wishing you had a different career, then maybe consider the grad school thing. There's no point in rushing into it. You'll always have the option to go back to school. My roommate worked as a restaurant server for like 8 months after graduating before he finally got his career started in CAD modeling. Imagine if he gave up and went to grad school during that time. He'd be still in school as we speak trying to get another degree instead of starting his career.

Take this time to apply to jobs and figure out exactly what you want to be doing and where you want to see yourself 5 years from now. If you find out that you already meet the education requirements to pursue what you want to do. Guess what? You don't have to go back to school. If you lack the experience you need, there are other options. For example, my roommate built a 3D printer and was CAD modeling and 3D printing as a hobby the entire time he was serving tables. There are also student training programs, post grad internships, co-ops and stuff like that. If you find out you absolutely want to be an electrical engineer and can't get into it otherwise, then maybe consider an MS in electrical engineering.

thank you so much for this info and perspective, it really helps a lot to just take a step back and look at more options other than school!

 

[Zap]

You have a lot of options even if you decide to go back to school, other than engineering. Computer science or applied statistics is an option. You can do a one year masters in data science. There are a lot of different graduate programs that you can get accepted into with a physics degree. So, if you do want to go back to school, know that engineering is not your only option in order to find a career. It all depends on what you want to do. I actually like programming, analyzing data and sitting in front of a computer for 8 hours a day, so I am pursuing the data thing. You should have at least some experience in applying statistics and analyzing data using MATLAB or Excel with your physics degree. Your mathematical skills shows what's called programming aptitude. It's really easy to learn programming when you're used to thinking spatially and organizing concepts mathematically. That's why even a masters program in computer science is possible for you.

If you look outside of a career in physics, you will find hundreds of opportunities where your degree is applicable. I have mentioned just a few here. Keep looking. Go to grad school when you are ready, if it is necessary.

 

[Zap]

Unfortunately, school doesn't teach us the hustler mentality. It teaches us to do what were told, make mama proud, get a good grade and things will magically be given to you. We need to adopt the hustler mentality to truly become successful and the next generation of leaders.

 

[Locrian]

I don't know if I'd call it a "hustler" mentality, but school definitely doesn't teach students to think strategically.

A simple example I often see (and was definitely true about me!) is answering questions.

What do you do in school when someone asks you a question? You give them an answer. A complete answer. Including lots of supporting details and evidence.

What should you do in a job when someone asks you a question? Stop and ask - what does this person really want to know, and how much should I tell them?

Even just asking brand new employees simple questions like "What are you working on" highlights this. A new grad responds like a sea cucumber, vomiting up every detail of their work over the past week. Someone with experience and savvy, on the other hand, gives me a tight response that tells me the general status and what issues have arisen. The impact when communicating with other departments is even bigger - I don't let new grads near some other internal departments, because the political fallout of a few misspoken words can be really painful.

 

[symbolipoint]

Something which should not be missed in this topic is what may happen in your planning or strategic thinking if you work, maybe and especially in your field for a couple of years. You may find skills and properties missing which you are sure would make you better or more effective in some way if you had them - so possible academic pathway in school.

 

[protonball]

You have a lot of options even if you decide to go back to school, other than engineering. Computer science or applied statistics is an option. You can do a one year masters in data science. There are a lot of different graduate programs that you can get accepted into with a physics degree. So, if you do want to go back to school, know that engineering is not your only option in order to find a career. It all depends on what you want to do. I actually like programming, analyzing data and sitting in front of a computer for 8 hours a day, so I am pursuing the data thing. You should have at least some experience in applying statistics and analyzing data using MATLAB or Excel with your physics degree. Your mathematical skills shows what's called programming aptitude. It's really easy to learn programming when you're used to thinking spatially and organizing concepts mathematically. That's why even a masters program in computer science is possible for you.

If you look outside of a career in physics, you will find hundreds of opportunities where your degree is applicable. I have mentioned just a few here. Keep looking. Go to grad school when you are ready, if it is necessary.

I agree. If the OP likes programming and/or statistics, he should consider getting into data science. Or even image processing, which is what I work in. I recommend getting an MS in CS. I have a MS in Physics, and I wish I had pursued an MS in CS instead

 

[CCofADoa]

Everyone keep name-dropping data science. I don't think it's that easy to get into it. Especially if you don't live in USA. Not every country has a healthy job market for data scientists. Certainly not Europe. And you're basically competing with graduates from other majors, that are usually more qualified than you. Math, CS, statistics. A lot of them also have PhD's.

I think we should start telling people if they want a job after their bachelor degree, then don't do it in physics.

 

[Choppy]

I think we should start telling people if they want a job after their bachelor degree, then don't do it in physics.

Why should we tell people this? Physics graduates have low unemployment and tend to do quite well by most employment metrics.

 

[Zap]

I heard that data science is actually a hard field to get into, but there are a lot of jobs out there related to it and the level of skill and salary varies widely depending on what data related job it is. You probably won't be getting that 100k data science job, but I still don't think it is an unrealistic goal for a physics grad to pursue some form of data analytics. I've seen data analyst and business analyst job posting that were around 15 dollars an hour and only asking for experience in Microsoft Excel. Additionally, I know CS grads who don't know Python and/or are not particularly skilled at programming or high level mathematics, like calculus and linear algebra. They take calculus II, but don't really repeat what they learn. As an example, chemistry majors have to take calculus three, but I've seen them trying to apply the quadratic formula, or even adding fractions. They typically don't use what they learn after leaving the math department, and therefore forget. If you happen to love quantum chemistry, it would be different, but most chem undergrads are not into that stuff.

 

[WWGD]

You always have the "hybrid" option of continuing to train yourself in more practical matters if you don't feel your studies are helping you that way, with YouTube, etc., Or the converse if you find work. This way you can keep a foot in both worlds.Edit: I have had the impression that masters in technical areas are oriented heavily either towards the technical aspects or more towards business aspects. The latter are more like an mba-ms combo while the first is more like a votech school. You may want to look into it and decide which you prefer.

 

[Zap]

I've been looking at a lot of data science jobs. Even some of the 100k ones in New York City don't have a lot of requirements other than an MS degree and some analytical experience. However, these jobs usually have like 200 plus applicants. So, I don't honestly know what your chances are in snagging one with a physics degree. My assumption is that you're no better off than anyone else with an applied math, computer science or statistics degree, if we are to strictly consider your education. Your experience will probably matter more in conjunction with your education. So, honestly, a degree in physics is pretty good, BS, MS or PhD, if you also have the specialized experience along with it.

Obviously, it would be difficult to get one of these jobs with a physics degree and zero programming skills, but it's not like they are requiring years of software development experience. I took a few computer science courses while simultaneously picking it up as a hobby and realized that I do enjoy programming and that it's really not as hard as you think it is, if you've never done it before. It's no different than trying to learn MATLAB or Microsoft Excel, which you should have done in at least some of your classes. Maybe a few computer science courses is not enough, but I have been working with CS majors in those courses, and I can honestly say that some of them really do not have good programming skills. I know CS majors who dropped the CS classes that I am taking. The CS majors program didn't compile, while mine did. Maybe it's a matter of how much work you're willing to do rather than what dumb degree you have. As another example, I had to do a group project by myself because the CS major I was working with didn't seem to know any programming language very well, while I know only one well enough. I mean, there are so many factors here, your stupid degree is only one of them.

Or maybe the only thing that matters is what stupid degree you have and therefore someone who graduates with a CS or engineering degree and a 2.8 and incompetent can score a high paying job, but someone who works hard but has a basic science or math degree will never make it in life no matter how hard they try.

 

[symbolipoint]

programming and that it's really not as hard as you think it is, if you've never done it before. It's no different than trying to learn MATLAB or Microsoft Excel, which you should have done in at least some of your classes.

Not credible.

I, as a former programming hobbyist, created some computer programs, some of them taking more than a month to finish, some up to 2 months to finish, and being of maybe 1500 or so lines of code. Much care and planning were put into each part of each programming project. Part of the development was testing to see if each section of code worked, and also to find defects in my code so as to be able to correct them. Sometimes this was difficult to find exactly what and where. The basic learning for how to understand the features of the language was not quick and not always easy.

 

[symbolipoint]

The job search is for sure hard and I realized a little too late that I lacked some experience in CS. I wasn't planning on going to grad school after graduating, wanted to hop into industry because that's what my advisors and professors suggested me (thanks guys). It seems that I need to go to grad school anyway, and where I'm at right now is deciding on where to go. Part of me thinks about getting masters in electrical engineering or something like that. I hate that this is driven solely by the fact that I want a job though, so I'm going to be sleeping on that thought for a while, but I don't know what my physics degree can really do to me right now.

Some who graduate may learn too late that some programming knowledge or skill would have been very, very, VERY beneficial. Maybe the thing to do is return to school just for a few computer programming or C.S. courses to build-up this knowledge or even just some academic experience at programming. Maybe eventually you may find a job with your current education, and you may well find just what kind of programs you would want to have or want to create.

 

[Zap]

Not credible.

I, as a former programming hobbyist, created some computer programs, some of them taking more than a month to finish, some up to 2 months to finish, and being of maybe 1500 or so lines of code. Much care and planning were put into each part of each programming project. Part of the development was testing to see if each section of code worked, and also to find defects in my code so as to be able to correct them. Sometimes this was difficult to find exactly what and where. The basic learning for how to understand the features of the language was not quick and not always easy.

The programs I write are usually around 200 lines or so. You have more experience than I do. Learning the basics of Python wasn't that much different from learning Excel for me, at the beginning. The amount of creative freedom and features are vastly greater in Python. I still have a lot to learn about it. So far, it has been a lot of fun learning and applying it. I was suggesting that it is not as difficult as one might think to pick up the basics and start developing programs. I was not suggesting it was easy to start programming at the level of a software engineer. My programming skills are not at that level. So, I cannot say whether that is easy or not.

 

[symbolipoint]

Post #27, I appreciate the explanation which was first attempted in post #24.

 

[Zap]

I may be somewhat of a novice, but I am really enjoying programming. It's more fun than physical science because you get to create things. I liked designing things in instrumentation, but I spent a lot more time conducting experiments and staring at a wall than I did to help create something. With programming, there are almost no limits to what I can create. I know some physics majors who shy away from programming because they think it's too hard or that it's too late due to missing years of education in the subject, but I think one can do a lot with just the programming basics. There are so many libraries and already made functions one can utilize, that you don't have to be a software engineer to start programming and having fun with it.

 

[Locrian]

Programming becomes massively more difficult as you scale - and by scale i mean lines of code, number of programmers, number of programs, complexity of architecture, and more. Humans have 50 years of frameworks, software design methodologies, systems engineering and management practice experience and surprisingly straightforward projects still fail.

Just figuring out what it is you need to build (e.g. software requirements, project backlog, etc.) is so difficult - and excruciatingly painful - that it is its own subject matter with entire texts devoted to it. Are you waterfall? Agile? SAFe agile? Does it even matter*?

Like a lot of things (teaching comes to mind), programming is fun (and sometimes even easy) when you're just programming. But programming within the social, political, fiscal and temporal constraints typically placed upon programmers can make it very difficult very fast.

*It does!

 

[Locrian]

I may be somewhat of a novice, but I am really enjoying programming. It's more fun than physical science because you get to create things.

I too noticed that you can create some really cool things really fast using software. Combine it with a raspberry pi (or whatever suits you!) and some hardware and you can get some fun from both worlds.

 

[gleem]

The American Institute of Physics Statistics Research Center has some interesting info about employment of BS grad in physics. In a survey of 2015 and 2016 grads 46% had jobs by the winter following their graduation. To get a perspective on that number in 2015 there where 8440 BS physics degrees awarded. 46% of 8440 is 3966. Of the 8440, 3210 entered grad school so the sum of employed grads and those entering grad school is 7776 leaving 664 unemployed or 7.9%. So you say still high. Yes but look at another stat. There were 13,542 senior physics majors. So what happened to some 5100 seniors? Almost 38% of seniors did not graduate with a physics degree. Of those that did (8440) I am very sure that some were marginal. Could it be that 7.9% without a job by winter just didn't have what it takes or lost interest or maybe casualties of a system that just interested in its own needs? It is well know that a large percentage of STEM students do not graduate. These programs over recruit.

It has been said many time on this forum that a degree is not a free ticket to a job. One could put all the blame on the system and some of it should but in this day and age with info freely available on the web there is no excuse for students truly interested in their future not to know the possibilities and be able to prepare for that future.

 

[Zap]

Some of my engineer friends talk about having entry level jobs that are paying over 100k salaries. How is this possible? How can someone who just graduated and has little to no professional experience be worth over 100k? I won't be going back to school anytime soon to get another degree because a few people got extraordinarily lucky, but it deosn't make any sense to me. Are these 100k entry jobs still going to train them? They get 100k salary plus additional training? How is 100k justified here?

 

[symbolipoint]

Some of my engineer friends talk about having entry level jobs that are paying over 100k salaries. How is this possible? How can someone who just graduated and has little to no professional experience be worth over 100k? I won't be going back to school anytime soon to get another degree because a few people got extraordinarily lucky, but it deosn't make any sense to me. Are these 100k entry jobs still going to train them? They get 100k salary plus additional training? How is 100k justified here?

Talk in more detail to your engineering friends. Maybe they have skills from their education that their employers can use. Ask your friends about their own mechanical skills, or equipment they know how to repair, or machines or devices they learned to use before they graduated. Ask them about what computer and programming skills they gained/learned before they graduated. The more someone knows, the easier is for the company to train him. Find out if such friends had any internships along the way before they found their entry level jobs.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Programming becomes massively more difficult as you scale - and by scale i mean lines of code, number of programmers, number of programs, complexity of architecture, and more. Humans have 50 years of frameworks, software design methodologies, systems engineering and management practice experience and surprisingly straightforward projects still fail.

Just figuring out what it is you need to build (e.g. software requirements, project backlog, etc.) is so difficult - and excruciatingly painful - that it is its own subject matter with entire texts devoted to it. Are you waterfall? Agile? SAFe agile? Does it even matter*?

Like a lot of things (teaching comes to mind), programming is fun (and sometimes even easy) when you're just programming. But programming within the social, political, fiscal and temporal constraints typically placed upon programmers can make it very difficult very fast.

*It does!

What you described above is inherent in any large-scale engineering projects, whether it is software or hardware. Building anything to scale becomes difficult, which is why engineering disciplines -- and the methodologies that goes along with the disciplines -- exist to begin with.

As for surprisingly straightforward projects still failing -- in my experience, most such projects tend to fail due to human error combined with bad management practices and targets (e.g. cutting corners to get projects completed with unrealistic timelines). And these failures are also not inherent to software.

 

[Choppy]

Some of my engineer friends talk about having entry level jobs that are paying over 100k salaries. How is this possible? How can someone who just graduated and has little to no professional experience be worth over 100k? I won't be going back to school anytime soon to get another degree because a few people got extraordinarily lucky, but it deosn't make any sense to me. Are these 100k entry jobs still going to train them? They get 100k salary plus additional training? How is 100k justified here?

I think it's important to realize that from a statistical point of view, these cases are outliers. Median entry-level engineering salaries seem to fall in the $55k - $70k range.

That's not to say that such jobs don't exist, just that they are exceedingly rare. But you're asking why they exist at all.

The answer comes down to basic supply and demand, I suspect.

Say, for example, you're a petroleum engineering company and oil prices go up to the point where it's economically profitable to attempt a new means of extracting oil from a natural deposit somewhat and you need engineers to refine your process. But (i) you need to recruit people to live far away from cities and often their families in a camp that you've set up, (ii) you need new engineers that have a general understanding of industrial standards and a set of very specific skills that aren't taught in most engineering programs, and (iii) anyone who knows anything about the industry will know that over the next year or so, the price of oil could drop, the operation will no longer be viable and those jobs could be cut. As a company, you have to sweeten the pot to attract the applicants that you want.

It might also be worth considering that the case of an applicant just scattershotting a generic CV through an online job board and landing one of these high-paying entry level positions is far more unlikely still. Chances are when getting hired on with an exceptional salary, the successful candidates are those who've already done an internship with the company and quite possibly they've beat out other intern candidates in a competitive process.

And of course sometimes, it's just a plain old case of being at the right place at the right time and having a network that includes the right people.

 

[Zap]

Yea. I was joking around with someone about wanting a 100k salary, and then she turned around and told me that's what she'll be making in a few months. And then she proceeds to explain how "that's not really that much money, when you think about it," and yadda yadda, at which I rolled my eyes and became disinterested in the conversation. Someone else claimed to be getting 110k after an MS in ME. I'm not really too sure what their backgrounds are, but they must have done an internship or something at least. That's a crazy amount of money.

 

[Zap]

I am going to try to volunteer in a research lab while I find or not find a job after May. I think I found a way to weasel my way into what I want to do regardless if anyone wants to hire me for it or not, and regardless if I am going to school for it or not. I don't really care if I find a professional career or not immediately after I graduate, anymore. I can survive on minimum wage, and I can do whatever I want, regardless if I have a fancy job or not or whether or not I am in school. I can do everything I could as a student as a non student, and I can do everything I could as a professional as a nonprofessional. Sky is the limit for me, right now. I won't let anything hold me back, not even school. I won't ever be in school again, at least not as a student. I am free as a bird. I can do anything I can imagine, within reason.

I am going to stay in Beverly Hills for three weeks in June. Why? How? Because I can do anything, and I have the technology. "But OMG it's so expensive." Guess what? It's not. I found a way, and I will continue to find a way. I won't be taking the straight and narrow path anymore. ( School --> Job ). I'm doing thangz my way. It's the dawn of a new day, and I'm moving to LA.

If you want to do something in life, what is actually holding you back? Do you think a degree is holding you back? Do you think a job is holding you back? Maybe, you're delusional mind is holding you back. We need to think creatively about our self and our obstacles. If there's something you want or want to do, there isn't anything holding you back ( at least for us single folks ). Maybe, you're just scared. You spent half a decade in school ( or twenty something years, if you count it all ), and now you're traumatized. Don't let that set you back. This is the land of the free. Don't let people convince you to join the military or take on more school, unless that's something you absolutely want to do, because then you won't have the freedom you have right now. Even if money is lacking, and even if you owe 100k in student loans, you're still a free man, and there's a way to do what you want to do. #MAGA

 

[cyboman]

I apologize for not reading this entire thread. I did read much of the first page.

Here's my contribution:

There's a lot of pressure when you're young to follow a set path and end up with a sort of tunnel vision. I've always been critical of the standard model of education in this way.

I would recommend you give yourself the time to figure out what really interests you. Before investing more time and money in anything. You can even just get any simple Joe job to get by and then give some time to yourself to investigate where your passions and curiosities lie. A simple job also frees up your mental energy. Your passions may change over time too. But before investing a lot of money in another degree for the sole purpose of a job, I'd recommend doing that reflection.

You may find that you miss academics and really love physics. Then you would know more.

You may join a salsa dancing club and think, I really love this, how can I make this part of my livelihood. (OK that's pretty fantastical but who knows?)

You may volunteer at a community center and help tutor students in basic sciences or physics. And find teaching really rewarding. Again, now you know more.

In closing, take the time to investigate how you can make your work, play. In this approach, you are seeking to solve a large part of life's equation that's result is lasting happiness and contentment.

 

[gleem]

@Ahmed Abdalla

There has been a lot of advice but some info about yourself was not revealed but should have been. Where are you currently? US? if so where? What are your possibilities for moving? Why did your adviser recommend you not go to grad school? Have you had any interviews? Could you show us your resume?

 

[russ_watters]

Some of my engineer friends talk about having entry level jobs that are paying over 100k salaries. How is this possible?

It's pretty much not. Talk to them and find out what piece of their puzzle you are missing. Maybe they did a co-op program and therefore are not really quite "entry level". Maybe that includes overtime or hazard pay or other allowances. Maybe they have another degree or certification besides just a BS.

The only entry-level BS engineers that get $100k (or an exemplary salesman) are in chemical/petroleum engineering:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/entry-level-chemical-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,29.htmhttps://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/entry-level-petroleum-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,30.htm
...and there's generally some qualifiers on that, such as the company shipping you to an oil rig or Montana.

 

[pi-r8]

It's pretty much not. Talk to them and find out what piece of their puzzle you are missing. Maybe they did a co-op program and therefore are not really quite "entry level". Maybe that includes overtime or hazard pay or other allowances. Maybe they have another degree or certification besides just a BS.

The only entry-level BS engineers that get $100k (or an exemplary salesman) are in chemical/petroleum engineering:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/entry-level-chemical-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,29.htmhttps://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/entry-level-petroleum-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,30.htm
...and there's generally some qualifiers on that, such as the company shipping you to an oil rig or Montana.

$100k+ starting salaries are pretty normal if you get a software engineering job in the bay area:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/...ngineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,43.htm
I've heard that Google is $140k these days. You don't have to work overtime on an oil rig, you just have to have a computer science degree and interview well. Amazing what a difference it makes getting a degree in something that's in demand, instead of just academic.

 

[gleem]

Amazing what a difference it makes getting a degree in something that's in demand, instead of just academic.

What you have demonstrated what you are capable of or what someone thinks your are capable of. Supply and demand reigns and always will.

 

[PCJJSBS]

I started applying to jobs a year before I graduated with my Physics B.S. (and a 'focus' in Material Science). I got a few interviews for different engineering jobs and even more with adjuster jobs at insurance companies. I applied to pretty much anything I thought my skills would be useful for. I got an interview at Northrop Grumman. Them, Honeywell, and other similar places hire B.S. physicists. I ended up getting really lucky and landed a well paid internship at the only science based company within 250 miles of my small city ( I was initially denied, but a week later I got a call offering me another position because someone had quit). After about a year of that, I was promoted to 'Device Development Engineer'. I work in nanoparticles and printed electronics. My GPA sucked, and I had no science or programming experience outside of my Physics curriculum.

To summarize, it is possible to get a job with a B.S. in Physics... but you need to try and supplement your schooling with programming and anything else you see as beneficial. You need to be open to working somewhere where you do no Physics, you need to be GREAT at interviews, and most of all, you need to be pretty lucky.

 

[Zap]

That sounds cool. My plan of taking a bunch of computer science courses my last semester back fired, and I'm getting at least one C because of that, maybe a D. The thing is, the entire class was easy until about two or three weeks before the end of the semester. Than the dude assigned a programming assignment in PHP and HTML, which I do not have the background knowledge to complete. I ended up installing a virus and destroying my laptop trying to do that project. It took me almost 1 week of little to no sleep on a lab desktop, turned it in late, and still got like a 30% on it. So, yea, it fugged me up pretty bad. Went from a B to a D at the last week of school, and now the semester is over. I don't think it was quite fair considering my group members dropped the class and I was missing prereqs, but life isn't fair and the majority of the time sucks.

 

[symbolipoint]

The post #45 from Zap:

A student may at times find that a course or class occasionally gives insufficient instruction on some topic, so this is in effect a prerequisite inadequacy within the course. Not always happens, but can and at times does.

Using C.S. courses as a way to prepare for the future is good . Overloading on such courses in any single semester is bad.

 

[Zap]

Well, you kind of have to overload if you're trying to complete a degree program and want to take more classes outside of it. I didn't think taking intro to C++, intro to Java, intro to R, intro to Python, etc would be very beneficial, so I had to take more advanced classes. Since I struggled in the higher level courses, maybe I'm not cut out to be a programmer.

 

[symbolipoint]

Well, you kind of have to overload if you're trying to complete a degree program and want to take more classes outside of it. I didn't think taking intro to C++, intro to Java, intro to R, intro to Python, etc would be very beneficial, so I had to take more advanced classes. Since I struggled in the higher level courses, maybe I'm not cut out to be a programmer.

Maybe you can not be so sure based on that. Anything comes between higher level courses and the introductory courses? Maybe you also overloaded yourself without giving yourself the time? You are maybe the person who can best figure that out.

 

[Zap]

Maybe you can not be so sure based on that. Anything comes between higher level courses and the introductory courses? Maybe you also overloaded yourself without giving yourself the time? You are maybe the person who can best figure that out.

I'm honestly not sure what happened. Everything was going along fine until the last couple weeks of school. I guess I just got a bit burned out or lazy. I know I could have done better, but I didn't. I guess I'll take it as a learning experience. I'm not getting a D, but probably a C. So, I'll still be able to graduate. But, yea, I wouldn't recommend trying to load up on computer science courses. It's probably better to take some intro classes and maintain a good GPA. It might be better to get into programming as a hobby than take extra classes in it. What I did was doable, but it was really stressful and I dropped the ball, so to speak, at the very end.

I don't totally regret it, because I did learn more about programming and databases, but it may have been possible to learn that stuff at my own pace outside of class. I think you could potentially learn more outside of the class. Like in AI, we went over neural networks for about 1 day. We spent like two months on logic, though. It's probably better to save your money and your health and learn it yourself as a hobby.

 

[symbolipoint]

It might be better to get into programming as a hobby than take extra classes in it. What I did was doable, but it was really stressful and I dropped the ball, so to speak, at the very end.

I don't totally regret it, because I did learn more about programming and databases, but it may have been possible to learn that stuff at my own pace outside of class. I think you could potentially learn more outside of the class. Like in AI, we went over neural networks for about 1 day. We spent like two months on logic, though. It's probably better to save your money and your health and learn it yourself as a hobby.

Maybe that's the thing to do if you are running out of time before graduating. You did, I thought, say you were good at making programs. Continuing to give yourself your own personal projects would keep yourself in good practice. You might later return to school for maybe some course which uses your already taken courses as prerequisite, so you might learn from some intermediate course not-yet taken.

My own path was to do only one introductory programming course, became scared for doing poorly (but earned grade of C), and not enrolling in any more computer programming courses - but several years later, started back just as a hobby; this way, I was able to learn to do some of what was so difficult when I had been student. Any actual programming "experience" came from the hobby. Even the many useful programs I made were done AFTER I could have used any when no longer in the kind of work/jobs in which I might have wanted those programs. If I had such skills in that earlier employment, things might have gone differently (like maybe better) for me.