Impact, momentum, demand and capacity

In summary, the conversation discusses two different formulas for determining the forces acting on objects during impact: one set uses gravity and the impact force, while the other set uses the capacity force and the impact force. The main difference is that the second set explicitly accounts for the resistance capacity, while the first set does not. The conversation also explores how the capacity of an object can affect the velocity and momentum during impact, and discusses the possibility of this capacity being lower or higher than the demand.
  • #1
Jpcgandre
20
1
I'm struggling with trying to find how conceptually need demand and capacity to be conciliated during impact.

In particular, I find two different formulas in papers and websites dealing with impact.
In all cases, they state that there are two forces acting on objects on impact, where they disagree is what are those forces.

One set states that these are gravity and the impact force (see https://www.wired.com/2014/07/how-do-you-estimate-impact-force/, https://www.wired.com/2011/09/can-bird-poop-crack-a-windshield/ and https://www.wired.com/2009/01/im-iron-man-no-im-not/, http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/476.pdf),
whereas the second set states that these are the capacity force (##F_{capacity}##) and the impact force (##F_{i}##) (see https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358267183_The_Total_Collapse_of_the_Twin_Towers_What_It_Would_Have_Taken_to_Prevent_It_Once_Collapse_Was_Initiated):

$$ F_{net}dt = (F_{i} - mg)dt = Δp $$
$$ F_{net}dt = (F_{i} - F_{capacity})dt = Δp $$

There is an obvious difference: one uses gravity whereas the other uses the capacity force (which may be multiple times larger than the former). Not only this but fundamentally in the former set there's no explicit way to account for the (resistance) capacity to determine the impact force.

Although the second set explicitly accounts for the (resistance) capacity I have doubts this is correct since the capacity will limit the demand (ie the impact force) simply because the demand cannot be larger than the capacity (ie if the capacity isn't larger than the impact force then the impact force will be capped by the capacity value). So it appears to me that determining the demand from the impulse=change of momentum should not involve the capacity.

Having said that, I'm struggling with the aftermath of the latter hypothesis. If capacity does not appear in the demand equation, then from the velocities profile (obtained from conservation of momentum) one can get the displacement increments. At the same time from the impulse=change of momentum, one can get the impact force.

I'm struggling to see how these pair of displacement increments and impact forces can be consistent with any arbitrary material constitutive model, ie if I plug in the displacement increment in this model I bet I won't get the impact force that I derived from the impulse=change of momentum. The same applies to the displacement increment: if I plug in the impact force to the model. So it appears that demand should indeed be determined considering explicitly the capacity. But how?
Thank you.

A follow-up question.
Scenario: Object A and object B are aligned vertically and the former is positioned below B. Object B is released and begins a course of collision with object A, which is rigidly attached to Earth.

If the capacity of object A is lower than the demand, then the velocity during impact of the mass formed by object B and the fractured part of object A will be larger than the case where the capacity of object A is higher than the demand. This can be obtained from the conservation of momentum by considering that the fractured part of object A will concentrate most of the after impact velocity while the remaining part of object A will have a much smaller velocity.

Is this reasoning OK?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2
Please post links to what you have been reading about this question (required), and please use LaTeX to post your thoughts on the math equations you are asking about (see the LaTeX Guide link in the lower left of the Edit window). Thanks.
 
  • Like
Likes Jpcgandre
  • #3
Hi Berkeman, I gave it a shot, but not sure if Latex is showing up correctly... I see the "code" and not the intended result.
Added links.
 
  • #4
Thanks for that, @Jpcgandre

Thread is closed temporarily for Moderation...
 
  • #5
After a Mentor discussion, the thread is provisionally reopened.
 
  • #6
Thanks, having though a litlle bit about this I think Eq. (2) in my original post is wrong.
For the scenario I defined at the end of my original post:
Using Eq. (1), one gets from the ##Impulse = Change of momentum## theorem:

1) Before the pressure wave reaches Earth:

Net force on object B:
$$F_{i} - m_{B}*g$$
Impulse = Change of momentum
$$F_{i} - m_{B}*g = \frac {d(m_{B}*v_{B})} {dt}$$

Net force on object A:
$$-F_{i} - m_{A}*g$$
Impulse = Change of momentum
$$-F_{i} - m_{A}*g = \frac {d(m_{A}*v_{A})} {dt}$$

Applying the conservation of total momentum:
$$m_{A}*v_{A}|t_{i} + m_{B}*v_{B}|t_{i}= m_{A}*v_{A}|t_{i+1} + m_{B}*v_{B}|t_{i+1}$$
$$-(m_{A}*v_{A}|t_{i+1} - m_{A}*v_{A}|t_{i}) = m_{B}*v_{B}|t_{i+1} - m_{B}*v_{B}|t_{i}$$
So:
$$-(-F_{i} - m_{A}*g)*dt = (F_{i} - m_{B}*g)*dt$$
$$m_{A}*g = -m_{B}*g$$
Which doesn't make sense so I think that before the pressure wave reaches Earth the total momentum is not
conserved!

After the pressure wave reaches Earth, total momentum is conserved by the extra term that appears in the Fnet of object A account for the reaction on the ground which is equal to ##m_{A}*g + m_{B}*g## as predicted by the conservation of total momentum.

Of course ##F_{i}## is given by the minimum of the resistances of objects A and B.
Is the above correct?
 

Related to Impact, momentum, demand and capacity

1. What is the difference between impact and momentum?

Impact and momentum are both measures of force, but they refer to different aspects of an object's motion. Impact refers to the force exerted by one object on another during a collision, while momentum refers to the quantity of motion an object has due to its mass and velocity.

2. How does demand affect capacity?

Demand and capacity are closely related in that demand refers to the amount of a product or service that consumers want or need, while capacity refers to the maximum amount that can be produced or provided. If demand exceeds capacity, it can lead to shortages or delays in delivery.

3. Can impact and momentum be negative?

Yes, both impact and momentum can be negative. Negative impact occurs when two objects collide and move in opposite directions, while negative momentum occurs when an object is moving in the opposite direction of its velocity.

4. How do you calculate impact?

Impact can be calculated by multiplying the mass of an object by its change in velocity during a collision. This is known as the impulse-momentum theorem: Impact = mass x (final velocity - initial velocity).

5. What factors affect capacity?

Capacity is influenced by a variety of factors, including the availability of resources, production efficiency, and external factors such as demand and competition. Changes in these factors can impact an organization's capacity to produce or provide goods and services.

Similar threads

  • Classical Physics
Replies
12
Views
1K
  • Classical Physics
Replies
27
Views
1K
Replies
9
Views
316
  • Mechanics
Replies
9
Views
1K
Replies
2
Views
173
Replies
1
Views
838
Replies
13
Views
2K
Replies
86
Views
4K
  • Classical Physics
Replies
7
Views
1K
Replies
1
Views
1K
Back
Top