In Honor of Judas: The Forgotten Hero of the Gospel

[FZ+]

It's Good Friday. The day Jesus died. (Assuming Christianity is correct, of course) Hurrah.

But amidst the celebrations, the easter eggs, we forgot one other person who died that day. The forgotten hero of the Gospel.

Judas Iscariot, the traitor.

The fact is, Judas was not, could not be a sinner. His crime of betraying Christ was written, at least allegedly in prophecy, and hence not a sin. He did not do so freely. His reasons were not that of personal greed, but love, however misguided, of his nation. 6 Dinars was not enough to betray anyone for money.

Now, ask yourself where Christianity would be without Judas. We would be without the ressurection. We would be without the potent symbol of self sacrifice. We would be without the symbol of the cross itself. Christianity would be at most a minor cult, a small off-shoot of Judaism. Other religions like Islam may be in a similar condition.

And remember, where Jesus just sacrificed his life for ours, and is rewarded by an eternity of rule in Heaven, Judas sacrificed his eternal life so Jesus could be raised up, and us with him. It is he who will suffer unjustly because of the need for a tool for God's great plan. It is his blood, his guilt, his loss of choice that heaven rests upon.

So, if you are a Christian in this Easter, remember to offer a little prayer for Judas. The man who did evil for the good of mankind.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
It's Good Friday. The day Jesus died. (Assuming Christianity is correct, of course) Hurrah.

But amidst the celebrations, the easter eggs, we forgot one other person who died that day. The forgotten hero of the Gospel.

Judas Iscariot, the traitor.

The fact is, Judas was not, could not be a sinner. His crime of betraying Christ was written, at least allegedly in prophecy, and hence not a sin. He did not do so freely. His reasons were not that of personal greed, but love, however misguided, of his nation. 6 Dinars was not enough to betray anyone for money.

Now, ask yourself where Christianity would be without Judas. We would be without the ressurection. We would be without the potent symbol of self sacrifice. We would be without the symbol of the cross itself. Christianity would be at most a minor cult, a small off-shoot of Judaism. Other religions like Islam may be in a similar condition.

And remember, where Jesus just sacrificed his life for ours, and is rewarded by an eternity of rule in Heaven, Judas sacrificed his eternal life so Jesus could be raised up, and us with him. It is he who will suffer unjustly because of the need for a tool for God's great plan. It is his blood, his guilt, his loss of choice that heaven rests upon.

So, if you are a Christian in this Easter, remember to offer a little prayer for Judas. The man who did evil for the good of mankind.

When you hang reason up on the cross what do you get? Treason ...

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by FZ+
The fact is, Judas was not, could not be a sinner. His crime of betraying Christ was written, at least allegedly in prophecy, and hence not a sin. He did not do so freely.

the fact that someone was bound to do it does not make the one who did any less guilty.

 

[FZ+]

Oh?

From "is homosexuality a sin"...

I also believe you are born homosexual, as most people you would talk to would say the opposite sex just doesn't do anything for them. You could apply this concept to other birth defects, such as turret syndrome, the person cannot help yelling things out, and sometimes they may yell at profanities against their will, this cannot be a sin, because a sin has to be a decision, free willed.

Is the bullet guilty of murder?

And treason against whom? To rome, the nation that ruled the region, Jesus was a traitor, an enemy of the state.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
And treason against whom? To rome, the nation that ruled the region, Jesus was a traitor, an enemy of the state.

No, the "T"-Reason was committed by those who hung Him up on the cross ...

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by FZ+
Oh?

From "is homosexuality a sin"...

Is the bullet guilty of murder?

that does nothing to prove Judas was predestined to betray Jesus, nor that the bullet was made to murder anyone.

 

[FZ+]

Matthew 26:2 "As you know, the passover is two days away - and the son of man will be handed over to be crucified"

Now, someone has to do it...

Luke 22:3 Now Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the twelve.

So was it his free will?

John 13:26 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. <snip> "What you are about to do, do quickly"

So was he not clearly predestined from this point?

I think the bible is pretty clear here.

 

[quantumcarl]

misinterpretation by the orthodox jews

Originally posted by FZ+
Matthew 26:2 "As you know, the passover is two days away - and the son of man will be handed over to be crucified"

Now, someone has to do it...

Luke 22:3 Now Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the twelve.

So was it his free will?

John 13:26 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. <snip> "What you are about to do, do quickly"

So was he not clearly predestined from this point?

I think the bible is pretty clear here.

Judas was part of the Isrealite resistance like Jesus and the other generals of Jesus's "army of love"

According to the book, Holy Blood, Holy Grail... Jesus used the secret "disciple" Simon to stand in for Jesus and Jesus's exicution by the Romans and the Orthodox Judean types... with big beards.

Judas was used to concretely identify the "Jesus" that the old sorry butt orthodox hebrews of Jewish faith had only breifly seen during some appearances and lectures... from far away.

So, Judas was their eyes and ears... leading them to believe that Simon was Jesus.

Simon "took the bullet" for Jesus... because Judas pointed to Simon as being Jesus.

This is a well exicuted (pun partially unintended) plan that was layed out during the days before the supposed "rat-fink", Judas, turned in the head of the Isrealite Resistance, Jesus of Nazareth... son of Joseph... a rich man who bribed the Romans to conduct the exicution on his lands. (This was a ploy to attempt to revive Simon after the famous display of cruelty that no doubt killed Simon, the martyr, the brave stand in for Jesus)

Jesus made ready passage for his sons and his wife, Mary Magdelene, to Southern France (not the town of Remulak) and Jesus himself laid low for some time afterwards. With acception of a few appearances to his followers who decided that Jesus had "risen from the dead".

As I mentioned, these interpretations of 2000 year old events are from the book the Holy Blood, Holy Grail. The events are reported to have been researched via Hebrew and Roman records and other existing documentation from the period.

This is what led up to blowing out the contents of eggs, today. Perhaps there is a subconsciousreason that we disguise eggs as beautiful works of fractal and other arrangements... in a kind of reflection of the diguise of Simon as Jesus.

Not likely.

 

[kyleb]

were did they come up with that? Simon and peter are the same person you know?

and FZ+, that is quite a stretch to go from people speculating that Judas was up to something to saying he was predestined to do it. not a whole lot of logic going on in the argument either.

 

[FZ+]

were did they come up with that? Simon and peter are the same person you know?

The gospel of John.

and FZ+, that is quite a stretch to go from people speculating that Judas was up to something to saying he was predestined to do it. not a whole lot of logic going on in the argument either.

It wasn't people speculating. It was Jesus predicting before the actualy betrayal that Judas would betray him. Now, unless Jesus has a habit of lying...

 

[TENYEARS]

FZ, where did you dig that up popular view .Com? The magic of the story of christ is not the miracles or weather or not it was christ who said the words or his disciples or the scribe down the street. It was their correlation to reality and their unfolding of truth. The cross may or not be the symbol, maybe it would be a fish. Hey you have hope.

 

[FZ+]

No, I made it up myself.

Which ever way you look at it, the concept of Christ's sacrifice is central to Christianity. The sending of his son to die for our sins in crucial, as is the idea of being killed by man. The use of prophecy in correlation to earlier Isiaah scriptures seals Judas' fate. Much of magic of the story of christ lies in the crucification and the ressurection. Without the death, without a popular martyr, Christianity would be nothing like what it is today. Christianity should observe what it owes to Judas.

And perhaps, Judas should one day be forgiven. After all, was he not doing what he thought was a good thing? How do you know that you today, doing what you feel is good, would not be punished as Judas was? Perhaps Bin Laden is Jesus, or maybe Saddam is. Is it just to punish his foolishness in this way?

Why is there no hope for Judas, the tool of God and Satan?

 

[kyle_soule]

First of all, in order for Satan to enter Judas, as the Bible states, Judas would have to have not been one of Jesus' 'children'. Also, God, hence Jesus, is supposed to be able to know the future, and obviously know what we think. So, Jesus, by saying Judas would betray him, was not sealing his fate, only making an observation, although I do not know the significants of making this public.

Don't take the Bible literally, its just a good book, I would like to see FICTION printed on the outside like all the other fictitious books

EDIT: If I was sitting there with Jesus and he told me I was going to betray him then that would weigh pretty heavily on me. Would I sacrifice myself, even though I had no intent on betraying him, to provide truth to Biblical prophecy, or should I live and perhaps ruin everything? I think Judas' choice is clear.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by FZ+
No, I made it up myself.

Which ever way you look at it, the concept of Christ's sacrifice is central to Christianity. The sending of his son to die for our sins in crucial, as is the idea of being killed by man. The use of prophecy in correlation to earlier Isiaah scriptures seals Judas' fate. Much of magic of the story of christ lies in the crucification and the ressurection. Without the death, without a popular martyr, Christianity would be nothing like what it is today. Christianity should observe what it owes to Judas.

And perhaps, Judas should one day be forgiven. After all, was he not doing what he thought was a good thing? How do you know that you today, doing what you feel is good, would not be punished as Judas was? Perhaps Bin Laden is Jesus, or maybe Saddam is. Is it just to punish his foolishness in this way?

Why is there no hope for Judas, the tool of God and Satan?

Both binny boy and Saddamnfootstuck in the door have doubles to take the nails and thorns of the "oppressors"... but, I think they prefer CASH.

Judas was as brave as the rest of the men and women fighting the oppression of the Romans and the Orthodox Judaens who quivered and bowed to the Romans in an attempt to maintain their gold and silver.

Judas was one of the original Psyop Forces, diseminating mis-information about his leader, Jesus... the freedom fighter.

The rest is all dabbling in the kleenex gossip of black robed grandmothers.

The symbol of the cross with a mangled corpse on it is a reminder to the illiterate/slave masses of what happens to those who question "authority"... that's it.

How dieing, nailed to a wooden structure, equates with "forgivness for mankind" I'll never figure out, from any book.

How the very concept of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus is different from Vampiristic and Cannabalistic rituals beats me.

(It is a considered opinion of some scholars that PASSOVER is representative of a time when a large spherical object "passed over" Egyptian skys, causing all sorts of "miracles" during the time of the exodus of the Hebrews out of Egypt and out of the tyranny of the Pharoh Ramses.)

Have a good friday!
Have some toast.

 

[TENYEARS]

I have no qualms with Judas, why do you have a complex. FZ, what did you do exactly? Just busting your chops I think. God does not judge, the creation has this cool little function that is intrinsic to creation itself.

There is one death that must be faced before truth may become a reality to any individual. It is the confrontation of the the real question of lights out even if reiencarnation is a reality. There is a step when something must go, will you still be there? When you face this you will understand and not until.

There is forgivness every step of the way for all that is done. The question is can we forgive ourselves.

Life sometimes creates a vicious circle, the key is when you are high to know that the circle will repeat and muster the strength to step outside of the circle on to a new path a real path. "Ground hog day", good movie.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by kyleb
were did they come up with that? Simon and peter are the same person you know?

Which version of which bible told you Simon and Peter are the same person.

Is it the same one which brands Mary Magdelene a whore?

Who are the editors? When did they edit? Why would they edit the words of Jesus's friends? What sort of gain did the church seek in editing these manuscripts? Did the church point blank decide Mary M. was a whore because someone told them Jesus was celebate?

Who, in Gd's name, has butchered the history of Jesus and his peoples?

Answer: Everyone since 34AD. That's what gossip is all about.

 

[TENYEARS]

The bible is as good as the desire of the reader to understand it. Much like physics. I was taught in school of the big bang and that created the entire universe etc... I knew it was wrong and illogical that all matter in creation be located in one place. I did not know the answer, but I knew what was not the answer. That is the key to any understanding, not settling for answer.

 

[kyle_soule]

Originally posted by TENYEARS
The bible is as good as the desire of the reader to understand it. Much like physics. I was taught in school of the big bang and that created the entire universe etc... I knew it was wrong and illogical that all matter in creation be located in one place. I did not know the answer, but I knew what was not the answer. That is the key to any understanding, not settling for answer.

I know this is not a debate of how valid the big bang theory is, but I must say, high school sciences don't do this theory half the justice it deserves, this may be in part due to the debate of Creation vs Big Bang, so they simply teach you the scientific facts of the BB and leave it at that, as not to piss anybody off.

But you are very correct, if you don't have any will to believe the Bible then you can easily find fault in it to not believe, as with science. You must accept the Bible on faith alone.

 

[TENYEARS]

I'm in the mood for a p?g contest. I bet I win and it won't mean squat because you still won't understand.

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I know this is not a debate of how valid the big bang theory is, but I must say, high school sciences don't do this theory half the justice it deserves, this may be in part due to the debate of Creation vs Big Bang, so they simply teach you the scientific facts of the BB and leave it at that, as not to piss anybody off.
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I figured out what universal therory was in 1991 on my own steam. I would be willing to bet you have no clue. I would probably give odds on this but it would be stealing when you know the outcome before hand.

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But you are very correct, if you don't have any will to believe the Bible then you can easily find fault in it to not believe, as with science. You must accept the Bible on faith alone.
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I believe very little in life in general and believe nothing out of the bible or a physics book for that matter. I know for a fact you cannot say the same.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by quantumcarl
Which version of which bible told you Simon and Peter are the same person.

Is it the same one which brands Mary Magdelene a whore?

wow carl that is quite a vulgar tongue you have there, i am sorry as i didn't mean to stir you by any means; i suppose i might have gone better if i quoted the source straight off. regardless, i don't think there is anything nearly so demeaning about Mary Magdalene in the standard translations though i can't say i have actually read it cover to cover. however, makes the fact that Simon is Peter rather clear in every version i have checked, Matthew 4:18 and 16:17-18 are probably the most obvious spots in kjv and such. what do you find so distasteful about this anyway?

 

[kyleb]

also, what in the world are you calling a possable lie FZ+? all you presented as quotes from Jesus is this:

John 13:26 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. <snip> "What you are about to do, do quickly"

and doesn't rightly come out as a lie no matter what happened after the point. honestly, i know some religious nuts bring up some absurd arguments, but i don't rightly see that as a valid excuse to make up absurd arguments against religion.

 

[FZ+]

I meant unless Jesus lies about being able to make prophecies, Judas is no longer free. Maybe I'll post the full quote, since that is indeed a little ambiguous...

13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

From King James' Version
Er... I wasn't arguing against religion. I am assuming the bible is correct here. Can people get a grip and see what I am saying?

And TENYEARS, let's not get into personal attacks. Why do you reject this idea? According to the majority of such dogma, Judas alone will NOT be forgiven. I am saying that this is wrong. Do you believe in the ideas of the bible, it's values, or do you want you interpretation to be made for you, directly in hate at a convenient target of Judas? I have made no comment as to the validity of the bible here. And forgiving other is a very important step in forgiving ourselves. Would the god you know and love forgo that step for Judas? What do you really think?

First of all, in order for Satan to enter Judas, as the Bible states, Judas would have to have not been one of Jesus' 'children'. Also, God, hence Jesus, is supposed to be able to know the future, and obviously know what we think. So, Jesus, by saying Judas would betray him, was not sealing his fate, only making an observation, although I do not know the significants of making this public.

1. Hmm... Weren't all man supposed to be Jesus' "children"? And if he was not, then isn't that more evidence of predestination?
2. There was discussion some time ago on this. It was agreed that any observation in terms of prophecy must neccessarily end free will, in kinda the fashion of quantum mechanics. If Jesus said it, it must be true, for Jesus is prophecising it. And because this action is predicted, Judas is not free to avoid it. Even if he wanted to change his mind, to throw back the 30 silver coins, he could not do so. In the act, he was not free.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by FZ+
Er... I wasn't arguing against religion.

...According to the majority of such dogma, Judas alone will NOT be forgiven. I am saying that this is wrong.

pick one please, and do it well.

also i should point out that i am not a Christian so i am not exactly the best authority on their dogma; but last i knew anyone who commits blasphemy is subject to the same rules as Judas. regardless, i still don't buy you argument that Judas was robed of free will by any means as the account of John you presented shows me nothing of the sort. if i see a man haphazardly skiing of towards and unmarked cliff and i prophesies that the guy is going to take a fall; that does not remove the fact that it is his own damn fault for letting it come to be. i don't see why it would be any different if Jesus said it either.

 

[TENYEARS]

If a drop of water comes down a mirror it falls a certain way. It's path was not predetermined and yet it had no choice and yet it made a choice at every point down the mirror. If you reran the sequence into infinity over and over it would happen the same exact way. The drop may have cause an affects along the way and and this is paid in full by the law of causality(Physics).

 

[FZ+]

If you reran the sequence into infinity over and over it would happen the same exact way.

If man was as deterministic as a drop of water, then there would be no free will. Life is just a movie that we watch. We have no real control. So, do you believe in free will? With free will, there must be capacity to chose. This choice was denied Judas.

i don't see why it would be any different if Jesus said it either.

Jesus is god. His word MUST be truth. Hence the rather large difference. And the Satan bit is significant too...

Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.

Recurrent references exist that Jesus would die after some form of betrayal. This meant that someone had to bite the spiritual bullet so to speak.

 

[kyleb]

yes, i understand that according to some of the people who draw form the same basic theology, Jesus considered the sole incarnation of god. But i don't is some bum on the street, Miss Cleo, or the almighty making a prediction, all of them would have been right for makeing the claim and none of them removed anyone's free will by doing so.

 

[TENYEARS]

I agree judas did the best he could and could not have done any different at that moment even if it repeated itself in time for a thousand years it would have happened the same way no differences. Only if variables could change would it change. God the father did not chose Judas to do this and yet it was forseen or so they say. I don't know if they did or not and do not require it for myself. I have my own experiences.

People make the best possible choices they can at every moment. If they make bad choices and go against the grain, or do what is considered bad by themselves, they will pay within themselves. So one cannot cop out and say my life is worthless what is the purpose and give up(Ecleasiasties). I wish I could spell sometimes.

Creation has a balance sheet. I saw this when I figured out what gravity is.

Not every word in the bible is correctly quoted from Jesus or any other prophet of any other religion. Heck today I see things being rewritten and they have no clue sometimes to what the passage means.

This was in the bible and taken out of a version which was given to my family. "He that finds the spirit within him will go no more out" pretty close to that. What do you think it means? Do you know catholism believed in reincarnation at one time and decided to pull it out since if people thought they had to many lives to live they would not improve themselves(><400AD). There are many inconsistancies, but there are also consistancies.

Satan has never existed except within us by our actions.

 

[kyleb]

it should be noted that it was foretold that Peter would betray Jesus three times that same night; and this came true as well but the betrayal was not to the point that he was a party to the crucifixion. i just learned this one of the bible beaters on this history channel while i was eating dinner last night.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by kyleb
wow carl that is quite a vulgar tongue you have there, i am sorry as i didn't mean to stir you by any means; i suppose i might have gone better if i quoted the source straight off. regardless, i don't think there is anything nearly so demeaning about Mary Magdalene in the standard translations though i can't say i have actually read it cover to cover. however, makes the fact that Simon is Peter rather clear in every version i have checked, Matthew 4:18 and 16:17-18 are probably the most obvious spots in kjv and such. what do you find so distasteful about this anyway?

No offence intended. My hormones get active when I think about the bastardization of history. (pardon my vulgar tongue)

I believe there was more than one Simon in Jesus's company. The fact that Judas's father's name was Simon should point that out. In fact, I wouldn't be suprized if Judas's Father was the secret disciple who stood in for Jesus. It all starts looking like the same devoted and suicidal families of today, in the middle east, acting in the face of the monsterously overbearing Roman occupancy of Jesus's time.

 

[kyleb]

oh no offence taken, i don't really hold offence towards words regardless of their nature; i was just a bit shocked to see it used in such context. however, i am curious as to where this idea of a " secret disciple" stems from. i didn't know Judas's fathers name was Simon but i assumed that Peter was not the only one, yet i also know that many do not realize that Peter's given name was Simon and that is the only disciple by that name i have ever heard of at all so i figured it was just a matter of confusion.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by kyleb
oh no offence taken, i don't really hold offence towards words regardless of their nature; i was just a bit shocked to see it used in such context. however, i am curious as to where this idea of a " secret disciple" stems from. i didn't know Judas's fathers name was Simon but i assumed that Peter was not the only one, yet i also know that many do not realize that Peter's given name was Simon and that is the only disciple by that name i have ever heard of at all so i figured it was just a matter of confusion.

Let me put it this way.

"The Romans adopted Christianity".

That's a bit like the Nazi's telling everyone they've adopted Judeaism.

Now imagine the Koran or whatever the Jewish bible is called... imagine what it would read like after the Nazi's edited it to their taste and to their culture of fear and controlling.

This is what I think has happened to the bible. And people keep referring to it as though it was written yesterday and has never seen the light of a malicious editor's desk.

I really think people might think about researching the source before they quote or believe what is written in it... or in any publication... for that matter. Thanks Kyleb!

 

[kyleb]

well damnit carl that is exactly what i am doing here. i know that there has been some scriptural revisionism thoughout history; i have never claimed otherwise. i am not even a Christian let alone a bible-beater. however, my curiosity as to were the notion of a secret disciple named Simon has gone unanswered. oh, and as for "whatever the Jewish bible is called"; it is called the Old Testament, or in Hebrew it is referred to as the Tanak.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by kyleb
well damnit carl that is exactly what i am doing here. i know that there has been some scriptural revisionism thoughout history; i have never claimed otherwise. i am not even a Christian let alone a bible-beater. however, my curiosity as to were the notion of a secret disciple named Simon has gone unanswered. oh, and as for "whatever the Jewish bible is called"; it is called the Old Testament, or in Hebrew it is referred to as the Tanak.

Thanks kyleb. My copy of the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" was stolen by an ex-convent chick. I'd be looking up all the gossip and the gospel about the secret psy-op christian, Simon, for you right now if I had the book. You can buy it at one of the few, monopolizing, bookstores left in the world.

Personally, I'd say this thread could be titled "In Honour Of The Romans"... because without them, the whole Christian, Jesus thing probably wouldn't have happened.

"Tanak", that's the Hebrew name for the Old Testament? Very cool.

 

[Royce]

FZ+ I think Jesus had already forgiven him if any forgiveness was needed when he handed him the bread. It, in my opion, was necessary to fulfill the prophecies; thus, it was the will of God, the father.
Judas had only to forgive himself which apparently he was unable to do. I have forgiven him though no forgiveness was or is necessary. Maybe I feel sorry for him and sympathize would be a better way of putting it. But then by the same token are we to forgive Lucifer and Satan as doing the will of God?

 

[ray b]

well first off I would dissmiss Luke he was not there and was saul/paul's lacky who was the main respinner of the story of JC to make it acceptable to the roman overlords

and it seams JC instructed judas to go and DO IT so he was following the masters orders, maybe in a pre-planned plot

I think the whole death was staged
see my post about the ressurection

so old judas got a bumm rap he was just a loyal follower doing what he was told to do!