Insulating radiator pipes in basement

[Greg Bernhardt]

Common advice is to insulate hot water radiator pipes in the basement so you're not wasting money heating the basement. However, I wonder if it's really cost effective. I have a ton of pipes zigzagging in the basement. Cheap pipe insulation only seems to come in sizes 1/2 3/4 and 1in. However most of my old pipes are in the massive 5-7in range and a couple big boys are near 9in in circumference. So I have to use quite expensive wrap that I have to imagine will cost me 2-3-400 dollars to wrap my basement up. Is it really worth it?

 

[Bystander]

However most of my old pipes are in the massive 5-7in range and a couple big boys are near 9in in circumference.

Convection/ive circulation? Already asbestos lagged? Sewer/waste-water lines?

 

[Mark44]

Common advice is to insulate hot water radiator pipes in the basement so you're not wasting money heating the basement. However, I wonder if it's really cost effective. I have a ton of pipes zigzagging in the basement. Cheap pipe insulation only seems to come in sizes 1/2 3/4 and 1in. However most of my old pipes are in the massive 5-7in range and a couple big boys are near 9in in circumference. So I have to use quite expensive wrap that I have to imagine will cost me 2-3-400 dollars to wrap my basement up. Is it really worth it?

Are those large pipes part of your heating system? Pipes that large are typically used for waste drain pipes. Also for the 9in pipe, did you mean 9 in. in diameter? I can't imagine that a plumbing system would need that large a pipe to supply radiators.

 

[OmCheeto]

...Is it really worth it?

No.

ps. Unless of course you've moved recently, in which case, it becomes a definite maybe.

 

[dlgoff]

Common advice is to insulate hot water radiator pipes in the basement so you're not wasting money heating the basement.

You can determine if they're hot water pipes by checking their temps.
Just saying.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

You can determine if they're hot water pipes by checking their temps.
Just saying.

I'm confused by this response. The question isn't that that I don't know if they are hot water pipes or not :)

 

[Evo]

Greg, just what did the guy that flipped your house do?

I don't wan't to say what the owner of the house I bought did because the realtor said she'd NEVER EVER seen anyone do so much, I mean, yeah, I even got a complete stereo sound system wired through the house, in addition to all of the new stuff I won't mention. Blinds inside the double thermal insulated windows.

 

[Evo]

Greg, as part of the buying agreement, my realtor got the seller to agree to buy a 5 year warranty agreement transferable to me that covers just about everything. The appliances, the home (electrical wiring, plumbing, sewer, etc..) of course the roof has a 30 year warranty. Have you checked what your warranties cover?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Greg, just what did the guy that flipped your house do?

What do you mean? There is nothing wrong per say with the house. It's just old

Have you checked what your warranties cover?

That is sweet you got a warranty deal, I'll have to remember that next time I move!

 

[Evo]

What do you mean? There is nothing wrong per say with the house. It's just old
That is sweet you got a warranty deal, I'll have to remember that next time I move!

You didn't get a warranty? Oh dear. My house is 117 years old. I have a 5 year warranty.

 

[Evo]

Greg, when you got the video of your sewer pipe from your inspection, did they offer you a warranty? My sewer pipe was clean and solid and they couldn't believe it, the best they'd seen, I must say, it was beautiful. I think I still have a copy of it. Evo Child's best friend just paid $8k for sewer pipe repairs on a house she just moved into.

Greg, if you want to see it, send me your email address and I'll send it to you.

 

[dlgoff]

I'm confused by this response. The question isn't that that I don't know if they are hot water pipes or not :)

Well, like @Mark44 said, I was thinking there was a question of which ones were for hot water.

Are those large pipes part of your heating system? Pipes that large are typically used for waste drain pipes. Also for the 9in pipe, did you mean 9 in. in diameter? I can't imagine that a plumbing system would need that large a pipe to supply radiators.

bold by me

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Greg, when you got the video of your sewer pipe from your inspection, did they offer you a warranty?

Wow, I haven't heard of inspectors doing that! You got a good one!

bold by me

They are part of the boiler system

 

[dlgoff]

They are part of the boiler system

Wow. Okay.

 

[berkeman]

They are part of the boiler system

With pipes that large and a reasonable size house, the flow rate must be tiny. Even with isulation, that doesn't sound like a good design, but I'm certainly not an expert. paging @russ_watters

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

With pipes that large and a reasonable size house, the flow rate must be tiny. Even with isulation, that doesn't sound like a good design, but I'm certainly not an expert.

There are a couple super big ones but they end after maybe 7-8 ft and then connect to a smaller one. There are also newer small copper ones too. It's a totally mash up.

 

[OmCheeto]

There are a couple super big ones but they end after maybe 7-8 ft and then connect to a smaller one. There are also newer small copper ones too. It's a totally mash up.

Perhaps the big pipes are from the original 100 year old system, and may have been designed for a loss of power event, and natural circulation in mind.
Not sure how reliable the electric grid was back then.
If it was coal fired, it would be pretty hard to turn off the system to keep everything from being damaged.

Natural circulation refers to the ability of a fluid in a system to circulate continuously, with gravity and possible changes in heat energy. The difference of density being the only driving force. If the differences of density are caused by heat, this force is called as "thermal head" or "thermal driving head." [wiki]​

You should doodle a diagram with diameters and lengths and angles and stuff. It might make a fun thermodynamics problem.

I've actually been thinking about installing something similar in my wood stove.
DIY, of course.

 

[Nidum]

Could be relics of an old hot air central heating system .

 

[OmCheeto]

Could be relics of an old hot air central heating system .

?
Never heard of such a thing.
(google google google)

Ah ha!

An Early History Of Comfort Heating
November 6, 2001

[circa 1900]:

Hot water heating was making inroads into what had been a seemingly secure market. Frightened manufacturers formed the Federal Furnace League in 1905, to “elevate warm-air heating to the position it rightfully deserved.” For the first time, an attempt was made to standardize ratings among manufacturers. These efforts culminated in the National Warm Air Heating and Ventilating Association in 1914. Test and research programs were conducted at the University of Illinois. The association later produced a series of manuals for proper sizing and installation of warm-air heating systems.​

Fun read!

"Meissner believed that not only would they beat a path to your door if you invented a better mousetrap, they would also knock your door in and proceed to beat you up!"​

Oh, the good old days...

 

[Averagesupernova]

If it is steam heat then usual way they operate is the steam rises to the radiator, condenses back to water within the radiator having released heat to the room. The pipe that carries the steam is the same pipe that carries the condensate back to the boiler. Everything has to be downhill to the boiler. If the steam condenses in the pipe before it reaches the radiator then you will have cold places in your house. Warming a basement is not a bad idea, but if it robs heat from other places in your house then you will want to do something.

 

[Tom.G]

Warming a basement is not a bad idea, but if it robs heat from other places in your house then you will want to do something.

If there is not insulation between the basement and the living-area floor, then a warm basement could be advantageous... assuming the basement is not warmer than the living area! But don't forget the heat loss thru the basement walls and floor.

Here is a rule-of-thumb for natural convection heat transfer; it's reasonable around the "human comfortable" temperatures.
As an example a metal box with a 1BTU heater (3.41BTU = 1Watt) in it (Electronic equipment for instance) and an exposed surface area of 1Sq.Ft. will rise 1°F when dissipating 1BTU.

So you can calculate the surface area of the pipes in the basement, multiply by the temperature difference between the pipe and the air, and get the BTUs lost to the air.

Your Natural Gas is often billed by cost per Therm. A Therm is 100 000 BTU. After taking account of the boiler efficiency (80%?), you can calculate how much it costs you to heat the basement. Then trade off that heating cost with the cost of insulating the pipes, and maybe the living-area floor.

p.s. resolving your Negative Pressure In House... issue will very likely make a bigger difference than insulating those pipes.