News Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

[HossamCFD]

Time out.

I think you guys have forgotten that this is no longer Politics and World Affairs. WE DO NOT WANT it to become politics and world affairs Members DO NOT WANT it to become politics and world affairs. So STOP IT.

I will re-open this in the morning for rational discussion. Please remember to cite all claims with acceptable (by us) sources.

Thank you.

I think I'm missing the point here. What is the intended difference between Current Events and the previous P&WA (which I was more familiar with)? What went wrong in this discussion? Was it too emotional? Was there too much politics?

Just asking not to repeat the mistakes. I don't want to get this thread locked.

I had a look at the updated guidelines but couldn't spot anything that went massively out of line here.

 

[Evo]

Current Events is not supposed to be discussions of politics, it's supposed to be about daily news, without an emphasis on politics. So when a subject like this comes up, we need to be careful not to get too caught up in the politics or it will get shut down.

 

[OmCheeto]

I think I'm missing the point here. What is the intended difference between Current Events and the previous P&WA (which I was more familiar with)? What went wrong in this discussion? Was it too emotional? Was there too much politics?

Just asking not to repeat the mistakes. I don't want to get this thread locked.

I had a look at the updated guidelines but couldn't spot anything that went massively out of line here.

When in doubt, just make a joke about being a "Jelly Doughnut", or, throw out "random numbers".

I unfortunately never took a class in Political Science at University, so "Politics" has never made much sense to me.

Here's my layman definition:

Politics is about pointing fingers at someone else for being the cause of your problems.

------------------------
Just trying to goad the Mentors into giving me my first infraction at our new and improved, PF!. :P

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123278

In Syria, an ISIL vehicle was destroyed south of Al-Hasakah. Also near Al-Hasakah several buildings that were part of an ISIL garrison were destroyed. An ISIL command and control facility near Manbij was damaged. An ISIL building and two armed vehicles at the Kobani border crossing were destroyed. An ISIL held airfield, an ISIL garrison and an ISIL training camp near Ar Raqqah were damaged.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29390781

Kurdish fighters have been defending Kobane against IS since some 140,000 civilians fled the town and surrounding area for Turkey.

I guess we will see if precision air-strikes are effective in stopping this assault.

 

[Astronuc]

America’s New War in the Middle East - it was Iraq, then Syria, and now Iraq and Syria.

How to stop the cycle of retribution and ethnic/religious conflict? How to stop ISIS or Dash?

http://billmoyers.com/episode/full-show-americas-new-war-middle-east/

 

[Dotini]

I was listening to the BBC radio overnight and heard a reporter interviewing nervous residents of Baghdad running around in a dither. Apparently the ISIS bogeyman is only a mile away!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...sis-against-air-strikes-in-syria-9761392.html

Isis fighters are reportedly just one mile away from Baghdad as reports emerge of al-Qaeda militants bolstering their ranks in Syria.

According to the Foundation for Relief and Reconciliation in the Middle East, Isis was approaching the Iraqi capital on Monday morning.

"The Islamic State are now less than 2km away from entering Baghdad," a spokesperson said.

"They said it could never happen and now it almost has. Obama says he overestimated what the Iraqi Army could do. Well you only need to be here a very short while to know they can do very very little."

The news comes amid reports of an emerging alliance between Isis forces in Syria and Jabhat al-Nusra, also known as the Nusra Front.

The group is the Syrian offshoot of al-Qaeda and has been fighting against the Assad regime in the civil war.

Despite months of clashes between its forces and Isis (also known as Islamic State) militants, the two groups appear to be forming a loose coalition in parts of the country to fight increasing attacks by the US and its allies.

Al-Nusra’s official spokesperson, Abu Firas al-Suri, threatened the coalition nations with retaliation on Saturday.

“These states have committed a horrible act that is going to put them on the list of jihadist targets throughout the world,” he said.

“This is not a war against al-Nusra, but a war against Islam.”

Al-Nusra and Isis leaders are now holding war planning meetings together, a source told the Guardian, although no formal alliance has been confirmed.

The reports follow growing defections from other Islamist groups to Isis, which is seen as better organised and equipped to create an “Islamic State” straddling Iraq and Syria.

A loyalty pledge was reportedly made by al-Nusra in June in the town of Al-Bukamal near the Iraqi border, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said, and the two groups have fought together against Government forces.

The report appeared to be confirmed on Twitter by a photograph showing an Egyptian al-Nusra Front commander shaking hands with an Isis leader of Chechen origin.

Although both Isis and al-Nusra are rooted in al-Qaeda, the two have been rivals since Isis started its involvement in Syria’s civil war in spring last year and have engaged in bloody battles killing more than 3,000 militants from both sides.

A merger had been declared by Isis leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in 2013, when Isis was known as al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), but the alliance was rejected by al-Nusra and overruled by al-Qaeda leader al-Zawahiri.

But the international response to Isis’ bloody rampage through Iraq and Syria, and the beheadings of British and American hostages, is pushing the groups towards an alliance.

An al-Nusra source told Reuters: “There are hardline voices inside Nusra who are pushing for reconciliation with Islamic State.”

A formal alliance is believed to only be possible on the orders of al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri.

A deal between the militant groups would strengthen the Islamist force in Syria as air strikes cripple Isis funding sources, equipment stores and slow its advances.

The US has not said al-Nusra is being targeted but its planes have attacked a new group called Khorasan, which some analysts suspect is part of al-Nusra.

The two groups have been known to co-operate and Khorasan is believed to be made up of veteran al-Qaeda fighters with battlefield experience mostly in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Britain, the US and the United Nations are among those who have classed al-Nusra as a terrorist group, citing its use of suicide bombing, terrorist attacks and attempts to impose Islamic law.

A small number of anti-Government groups, including some members for the secular Free Syrian Army, opposed the label after al-Nusra gained respect fighting the Assad regime.

 

[Monsterboy]

In countries with such incompatible populations ,dictators do a good job forcing people of different religions to live together without killing each other , when the dictator is taken out and the government machinery is not good enough to ensure all communities are represented and treated well, things liked this happen.

The US and allies may help stop the ISIS etc but if the Shia,Sunni and other communities don't learn to live together in peace...this is bound to happen over and over again, the US should be careful not to let Iraq become overly dependent on it for maintaining security ,Iraq has to learn to manage it's internal problems on it's own and maintain balance between different communities.

 

[edward]

In countries with such incompatible populations ,dictators do a good job forcing people of different religions to live together without killing each other , when the dictator is taken out and the government machinery is not good enough to ensure all communities are represented and treated well, things liked this happen.

That is so true and using violence to settle their differences goes way back in history. It is like they never made it past the 8th or 9th century.

 

[HossamCFD]

Iraqi PM is not a fan of Arab air strikes. Western air strikes seems to be OK though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29447201

 

[Monsterboy]

That is so true and using violence to settle their differences goes way back in history. It is like they never made it past the 8th or 9th century.

Libya is facing a similar problem,the dictator is no more and now different rebel groups are fighting each other for dominance, this might lead to another Iraq like problem where mere airstrikes from NATO is not going to solve the problem.In Afghanistan the Taliban are getting bolder in their attacks perhaps realizing that NATO troops are packing their bags and even if a few of them stay back ,it will not be enough to defeat the Taliban completely. Looks like the US military will be quite busy with this part the world for many many years.

 

[nsaspook]

Maybe Turkey will use ground troops to stop ISIS.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/02/world/meast/isis-air-strikes/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Gaziantep, Turkey (CNN) -- Is a possible threat to an ancient tomb at the heart of Turkey's debate on whether to step up its role in the fight against ISIS?

The Turkish Parliament is debating and will vote later Thursday on whether to authorize the use of military force against ISIS fighters in Syria and Iraq.
...
The fighting has only intensified in the region in recent days, with ISIS advancing and nearly surrounding the Syrian Kurdish city of Kobani, known in Arabic as Ayn al-Arab, just a few miles from the tomb and on the border with Turkey.

If ISIS takes Kobani, it will control a complete swath of land from its self-declared capital of Raqqa on the Euphrates River to the Turkish border, more than 100 kilometers (60 miles) away.
...
The abuses "include attacks directly targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure, executions and other targeted killings of civilians, abductions, rape and other forms of sexual and physical violence perpetrated against women and children, forced recruitment of children, destruction or desecration of places of religious or cultural significance, wanton destruction and looting of property, and denial of fundamental freedoms," the report said.

 

[HossamCFD]

Maybe Turkey will use ground troops to stop ISIS.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/02/world/meast/isis-air-strikes/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I'm not sure if Iraq would allow them.

From the BBC article I linked to in the last post:

Talking to the BBC in Baghdad, Mr Abadi said Iraq's army would defeat IS "if we have good air cover" but stressed that no foreign ground troops were needed.

"We are very clear we will not accept any troops on the ground except Iraqi troops," he added.

Syria might be a different story though.

 

[nsaspook]

I'm not sure if Iraq would allow them.

From the BBC article I linked to in the last post:Syria might be a different story though.

It looks like they are going into Syria for sure.

update on the link:

Gaziantep, Turkey (CNN) -- Turkish lawmakers voted Thursday to authorize military force against ISIS in Syria and Iraq, joining a growing international coalition against the Islamist militants as they continued to capture territory just south of Turkey's border.

The Turkish Parliament voted 298-98 to not only to let the country's military leave its borders to battle ISIS but to eliminate threats coming from any terrorist organization in Iraq and Syria, starting Saturday.

 

[Astronuc]

Nothing new, but - Islamic State committing 'staggering' crimes in Iraq: U.N. report

GENEVA (Reuters) - Islamic State insurgents in Iraq have carried out mass executions, abducted women and girls as sex slaves, and used child soldiers in what may amount to systematic war crimes that demand prosecution, the United Nations said on Thursday.

In a report based on 500 interviews with witnesses, also said Iraqi government air strikes on the Sunni Muslim militants had caused "significant civilian deaths" by hitting villages, a school and hospitals in violation of international law.

At least 9,347 civilians had been killed and 17,386 wounded so far this year through September, well over half of them since the Islamist insurgents also known as ISIL and ISIS began seizing large parts of northern Iraq in early June, the report said.
. . . .

http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-committing-staggering-violations-iraq-u-n-091141719.html

 

[nsaspook]

Marine lost at sea.
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=83658

MANAMA, Bahrain (NNS) -- U.S. forces in the North Arabian Gulf concluded a search and rescue operation for a missing U.S. Marine Corps aircrew member today at 3:00 p.m. (GMT), after efforts to locate him were unsuccessful. The Marine is presumed lost at sea.

The Marine aircrew member went into the water yesterday when the aircraft he was aboard lost power shortly after takeoff from USS Makin Island (LHD 8). Another air crewman also exited the aircraft at the same time and was safely recovered. He is in stable condition aboard Makin Island.

 

[HossamCFD]

Another british aid worker beheaded
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29485405
This is too sad!

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-minister-vowed-possible-save-Islamists.html

 

[lisab]

Another british aid worker beheaded
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29485405
This is too sad!

I agree. Just another case of their extreme brutality, which will ultimately be the death of them. There is nothing that can contain such cruelty for very long. They will rot from the inside out.

 

[Astronuc]

Hit extremists with 'iron hand': top Saudi cleric
http://news.yahoo.com/top-saudi-cleric-warns-chaos-hajj-speech-134604009.html

MOUNT ARAFAT (Saudi Arabia) (AFP) - Muslim leaders must strike the enemies of Islam with "an iron hand", Saudi Arabia's top cleric said during Friday prayers, in apparent condemnation of the Islamic State jihadist group.

. . . .

A nasty bunch -
Islamic State backs up force in Syria with threats, taunting calls
http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-backs-force-syria-threats-taunting-calls-172818294.html

 

[mheslep]

I agree. Just another case of their extreme brutality, which will ultimately be the death of them. There is nothing that can contain such cruelty for very long. They will rot from the inside out.

We're hearing quite a bit of the self-resolving problem argument, from the President in particular, i.e. the repeated "wrong side of history" references. I fear the view is dangerous, as it suggests the threat will resolve itself without action if left for time to resolve. But time is a construct; people acting solves problems. The totalitarians in the first part of the 20th century were on the wrong side of history, but they killed ~50 million people by industrializing cruelty for years before history closed the book.

This idea appears to be built-in and surfaces periodically, I suppose because http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000746/quotesroutine of civilized life that threats to that life are often met with denial. The best selling book "The Great Illusion" published just before WWI argued that war was unprofitable, completely against the interest of all great powers, and the idea that war was in fact impossible became popular until sometime before gas flowed through the trenches.

http://blogs.reuters.com/anatole-kaletsky/tag/nato/

“The powerful bonds of commercial interest between ourselves and Germany, have been immensely strengthened in recent years … removing Germany from the list of our possible foes.”

 

[HossamCFD]

We're hearing quite a bit of the self-resolving problem argument, from the President in particular, i.e. the repeated "wrong side of history" references. I fear the view is dangerous, as it suggests the threat will resolve itself without action if left for time to resolve. But time is a construct; people acting solves problems. The totalitarians in the first part of the 20th century were on the wrong side of history, but they killed ~50 million people by industrializing cruelty for years before history closed the book.

I don't think anyone is arguing for inaction, and I definitely agree that threats like these should not be downplayed and left to resolve themselves. But I do think that their madness and almost unbelievable brutality will contribute to their downfall. Had ISIS been less genocidal and less keen on on-camera beheadings, yet still ideologically the same, the chain of events over the last few months would've been altered to their favour. For instance the UK involvement had only been in reconnaissance and humanitarian aid when the first beheadings occurred and one can argue that these beheadings played an important role in convincing british MPs to authorise air strikes in Iraq (and Syria might be next). Had the Yazidis not been trapped on mount Sinjar, threatened with imminent death or sex slavery, or the christians in Mosul not been forced to convert or pay the 'Jizya', the swift US military involvement could've been avoided.

I'm aware of many people who share ISIS ideology and their anti-western anti-shia rhetoric yet could not, at least openly, sympathise with them because they couldn't bring themselves to justify their atrocities. If that's also the case in the places they control then very soon they could be going about this war alone.

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/turkish-president-demands-apology-biden-091236171.html

Responding to questions following his speech at the Harvard Kennedy School on Thursday, Biden described Erdogan as "an old friend." Biden added: "He (Erdogan) said: 'You were right. We let too many people through.' Now they're trying to seal their border."

Erdogan disputes the claim and demanded an apology. Joe Biden called to apologize. Biden needs to be diplomatic, i.e., be more cautious in what or how he makes statements, and sometimes he needs to refrain from making statements about sensitive matters.

Meanwhile, Turkey seems to be stepping into the fray.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/02/world/meast/isis-air-strikes/index.html

Iran warns Turkey on Syria, and Syria says stay out. (some different perspectives on the story)
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/185761#.VDCX8ZstCpp
http://en.alalam.ir/news/1637679
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/07/25/iran-warns-turkey-to-butt-out-syria/Meanwhile - "Also on Saturday, the Pakistani Taliban declared allegiance to Islamic State and ordered militants across the region to help the group in its campaign to set up a global Islamic caliphate."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...isis-syrian-town-turkish-leader-rebukes-biden

A second front in Pakistan and Afghanistan would be troubling.

 

[jim hardy]

A second front in Pakistan and Afghanistan would be troubling.

particularly when one considers recent US military "Reductions in Force"

 

[Astronuc]

Kurds battle IS for key Syria town as fire spills over border
http://news.yahoo.com/jihadists-murder-briton-battle-kurdish-town-225117948.html

 

[Dotini]

The relationship of the Turks to the Kurds is puzzling. To me, the role played by Turkey in the current crisis is incomprehensible. But maybe it's too sensitive to comment upon, as Mr Biden discovered.

 

[mheslep]

I don't think anyone is arguing for inaction,

156 no votes in the House, President dismissing ISIS as a JV team back in January, etc.
http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/house/2/507

 

[HossamCFD]

156 no votes in the House, President dismissing ISIS as a JV team back in January, etc.
http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/house/2/507

You're right. I sort of meant in this discussion.

 

[OmCheeto]

156 no votes in the House, President dismissing ISIS as a JV team back in January, etc.
http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/house/2/507

Is it just me, or is that the most myopically misleading headline of all time?[5]

House Vote 507 - Authorizes Aid to Syrian Rebels Against ISIS[1]​

That was an appropriations bill:

Length and Level of Funding – The CR extends funding for operations for all federal agencies, programs and services until December 11, 2014. [2]​

Seemed to have pretty good support in the senate [3]:

Joint Resolution Passed in the Senate by 27 Votes
YesDem 44Rep 33Ind 1
NoDem 9Rep 12Ind 1​

But just imagine the mercenary army you could buy if it was all for ISIS:

The bill provides funding at the current annual rate of $1.012 trillion. [2 again]
​

A trillion dollars, is a lot. I've looked into that, in the past.

And as for Obama's comment in January? Even Al Qaeda didn't acknowledge how insane they were until February:

February 3, 2014 - Al Qaeda renounces ties to ISIS after months of infighting between al-Nusra Front and ISIS. [4]​

References
[1] http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/house/2/507
[2] House Appropriations Committee
[3] http://politics.nytimes.com/congress (note: this link will probably not work properly in the near future. It looks very generic.)
[4] CNN
[5] I have, on occasion, been accused of speaking hyperbolically. My apologies.

 

[OmCheeto]

The relationship of the Turks to the Kurds is puzzling. To me, the role played by Turkey in the current crisis is incomprehensible. But maybe it's too sensitive to comment upon, as Mr Biden discovered.

Did you read the article I referenced in an earlier post?

Why Does The U.S. Like Iraq's Kurds But Not Syria's?​

It kind of explains the Kurd-Turkish relationship.

Hossam seemed to approve of its content. Not that I need his approval, mind you, but I understand that different cultures have customs that are almost incomprehensible to me, and getting an insight into why there are differences, can be very enlightening. Also, the locals, in most all areas, seem to be keen on local history, and what's going on. So I trust his insight, more than I would an armchair quarterback from the Americas.

ps. Did you know that the Iranian word for "chair" is pronounced "sandal-ee". That always struck me as funny. It means I'm sitting on my butt-shoe, as I type.

 

[Dotini]

Did you read the article I referenced in an earlier post?

Why Does The U.S. Like Iraq's Kurds But Not Syria's?​

Yes, thank you, OmCheeto, I have read that article and several others.
I am slowly figuring out that the Turks regard their internal and Syrian Kurds (and Assad) as greater threats than ISIS, parliamentary votes and US/NATO alliances notwithstanding. The current siege of Kobani is a good example of that.