Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

[HossamCFD]

Please allow me to play devil's advocate for just a moment. Of course it is monstrous to burn anyone alive. But the Jordanian pilot could also have burned people alive during his sorties with coalition forces. ISIS is said to have lost 6000 people to recent coalition actions. So ISIS took revenge by burning him in turn. Now the cycle of revenge is continued by calls to execute prisoners. Please explain why burning people alive is okay for the coalition, but not for the enemy? How is the cycle of revenge to be broken? Thank you for indulging a potentially naive question.

I don't agree with the death sentence, especially revenge motivated ones like this (Are they all revenge motivated?). I would lock up the terrorists for life but not execute them.

Having said that, I see no equivalence between the two cases. True, they were both involved in killing people, but she took part in killing innocent civilians, while he was bombing a group that ethnically cleansed thousands of people and made an industry out of sex slavery.

 

[Czcibor]

I don't agree with the death sentence, especially revenge motivated ones like this (Are they all revenge motivated?). I would lock up the terrorists for life but not execute them.

I don't know. It would be quite hard to point where is the border between revenge and the general deterrent function of punishment.

Hossam, what would you advice for the West to do in the long run? I mean how to fight hearts and minds of people in Muslim civilization?

 

[naima]

What does "fight hearts and minds" mean? is there a typo?

 

[Czcibor]

What does "fight hearts and minds" mean? is there a typo?

winning hearts and minds

 

[HossamCFD]

Hossam, what would you advice for the West to do in the long run? I mean how to fight hearts and minds of people in Muslim civilization?

This is quite an important and deep question. I'm afraid my answer might not be as insightful/satisfying as you had hoped. Nevertheless I will share some incoherent thoughts. Most of what I will say applies mainly to the middle east/ Arabic nations not the wider Muslim civilisation.

Unfortunately, I do not think there is much that the west can do that can help with the current cycle of unrest/violence. There are cases where a military intervention by any able force is very important and saves many lives. Recent examples include the current coalition against ISIS and the intervention during the Libyan civil war (although the latter didn't end up the way it was hoped). Apart from that I do not think the west can do much to spread values of democracy, liberalism, and empowering reason over superstition. These have to be home grown and cannot be imposed. I do believe we will get there at some point, may be not in my life time, but I don't think there are any shortcuts, and it may become much more ugly before it starts improving.

There are cases however where the west can make things much worse, like the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Whatever the reasons for that war were, it was largely perceived by many people in the region as the US invading a random Muslim country in retaliation for 9/11. However I tend to think of this as an anomaly that we can get past.

Now more to the point about winning hearts and minds, and this is an area where I do think there is a lot that can be done. Many (I would say a majority but I don't have statistics to back me up) people have huge perceived/imagined grievances against the west. These have very little to do with the actions or values of the west and a lot to do with the state of affairs in Arabic countries. One of the reasons is the lack of good education that makes the public very prone to conspiracy theories that reflect their own biases. I also find that those grievances often stem from a weird mix of victim mentality (we are backward not because of our wrong doings, but because someone is making sure we don't succeed) and triumph illusions (we were great when we used to rule Spain and much of eastern Europe, we should bring back those days). There are also historical reasons for this anti-western narrative. Both Arabic nationalism and political Islamism, the two most prevalent ideologies in the region, were born towards the end of the colonisation era and thus were inherently anti western and were never really reformed in that respect. Now whatever other reasons are there for these grievances, the main problem is that this narrative is rarely ever challenged. This is what people grow up hearing and pass from generation to generation without serious questioning. That's why for instance the main reaction towards 9/11 was largely that of indifference (although I know many people who were very upset for the loss of lives, but most were just worried about the retaliation).

Most of the brainwashing happens under administrations that are regarded as allies to the west, and I think this should change. The west must do more to engage with the public in those countries, challenge the anti-western narrative that is largely due to imagined grievances, and demolish this perceived clash of civilization belief that is poisoning the level of discourse.

 

[jim hardy]

I'm just an ignorant westerner
but i think your reply was quite insightful
especially these two lines

One of the reasons is the lack of good education that makes the public very prone to conspiracy theories that reflect their own biases.

Apart from that I do not think the west can do much to spread values of democracy, liberalism, and empowering reason over superstition. These have to be home grown and cannot be imposed.

perhaps we take them for granted ?

It was not apparently Mohammed's design to expel the Jews from the Arabian
peninsula, and indeed there are documents ascribed to him having the appearance of
genuineness, wherein he expressly stipulates that so long as they perform their
engagements there must be no interference with them. His second successor ruled that
within the peninsula no religion save Islam should be tolerated,

= http://muhammadanism.com/Margoliouth/relation_arab_israel/relation_arab_israel.pdf

wish i knew history.

http://www.30-days.net/islam/history/caliphs/][/PLAIN]
Muhammad’s Successors – The Four Caliphs
http://www.30-days.net/reveal/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/califs-30-days-net.jpg
| AFTER MUHAMMAD :: The era of the four Medina-based Caliphs or “Rightly Guided Caliphs”. Three of the four were assassinated.

The first Caliph, Abu Bakr
By the time of Muhammad’s death in 632, Islam had become a dominant power in the Arabian peninsula. Muhammad’s successors (the four caliphs) were appointed by the Muslim community to carry out the leadership and rule of Islam throughout the Arabian peninsula and other parts of the world.

The four caliphs were more political figures than spiritual leaders. By military force the first caliph, Abu Bakr, brought all the tribes in the Arabian peninsula under the rule of Islam. These tribes had been divided after Muhammad’s death.

The second Caliph Omar

Under the second caliph Omar or Hadrat Umar Farooq (634 – 644) a phenomenal expansion began, which continued for about a hundred years. The Muslim armies defeated the armies of the Sassanian (Persian) and Byzantine empires. The Muslims then swept through the area that is present-day Iraq and Iran to Central Asia (Bukhara and Samarkand) and the Punjab. They conquered all the Asiatic territories of the Roman Empire except Anatolia (modern Turkey). Northward they occupied Syria, and Damascus was the capital of the Umayyad Dynasty (661 – 750). They conquered Egypt and moved across North Africa and into Europe, ruling most of Spain. Their move into the West was stopped in 732 by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in France.Remarkable Growth

Within a hundred years after Muhammad’s death, Islam became an empire in which Allah and the laws of Islam were established in Africa, the Middle East and Asia. Only Europe would remain virtually untouched.


(edit: no strangers to colonialism , those guys?)

The third Caliph Othman and division
After the assassination of Othman or Hadrat Uthman, the third caliph, in 656, increasing tension arose within the Muslim community. This ended in a civil war and division which still exists up to this present day throughout the Muslim world.

The forth Caliph Ali and the Shiites
The Shiites, the followers of Ali, the fourth caliph and first convert to Islam, became strong opposers of the Umayyads (the tribe from which the third caliph came). The power struggle between these two Muslim groups continued after Ali’s assassination in 661 by his former followers called Kharijites.

The killing, hatred and division went on as Yazid, the son of Mu’awiyah of the Umayyad Dynasty, massacred Hussein, the son of Ali, with his family in 680. This event is celebrated every year during the Islamic month of Moharram by Shiites.

I'm told Western civilization took off in Europe only after Francis Bacon proposed scientific inquiry.
When i was about seven or eight years old (1954?) my Dad had two visitors from Persia over for dinner.
They were astonished that we had an encyclopedia set on our bookshelf.
One of them said to my sister and me:
"Our country is very poor. Many cannot read, and very few books are translated into our language. Most of our towns would not have a book like this.
You children are very lucky to live here."

so I think your point about education is spot on.

 

[HossamCFD]

perhaps we take them for granted ?

One of the things that I always think about is the history that led to these values in the west and why did the middle east not develop a similar tradition.

It was not apparently Mohammed's design to expel the Jews from the Arabian
peninsula, and indeed there are documents ascribed to him having the appearance of
genuineness, wherein he expressly stipulates that so long as they perform their
engagements there must be no interference with them. His second successor ruled that
within the peninsula no religion save Islam should be tolerated,
= http://muhammadanism.com/Margoliouth/relation_arab_israel/relation_arab_israel.pdf

It's very hard to know for sure what Mohammed did or didn't. Most of what we know about him and his companions come from the 'Hadith' collections, the earliest of which was compiled in the late 8th century, almost 150 years after he died. This puts us firmly in the Ummayad dynasty when the muslims had already established an empire that's by now centred around Damascus not Mecca or Medina. The earliest islamic document is of course the Quran but you can't really use it to learn about Mohammed as he is only mentioned there a few times. Given all of that I would say that the only thing I can be reasonably certain about is that Mohammed is most likely a historical figure, not a work of pure fiction, and that he might have authored at least parts of the Quran. Anything else is IMO open to serious doubts.

However, if we forsake good old skepticism and take the traditional accounts as 100% accurate, then we find the story you mentioned about Umar (the second caliph). The story is narrated in more than one source of the "authentic six", the six collections of Hadith that are regarded as authentic and form most of traditional sunni Islam. However, in this account Umar claimed that it was Mohammed who told him to do so before he died, and that he is not acting on his own wishes. Most scholars take what he meant by "the peninsula" to mean only Mecca and Medina, where today non-muslims aren't normally allowed. There used to be a significant Jewish community in Yemen and in Iraq until the 20th century.

 

[jim hardy]

Thanks Hossam, I'm very weak in history in general and particularly of that region.

However, in this account Umar claimed that it was Mohammed who told him to do so before he died, and that he is not acting on his own wishes.

Blame your predecessor when things get unpleasant, eh ?
the more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[Czcibor]

I'm told Western civilization took off in Europe only after Francis Bacon proposed scientific inquiry.

I'd rather point out an earlier period, where in short while big part of our knowledge was set into doubt:
-Copernicus (1543)
-Luther (1517 - as the key point he expected masses to be educated enough to read Bible)
-Columbus (1492)
-Paracelsus (he set big part of ancient knowledge in doubt)

And everything was being published on Gutenberg (1450) printing press...

Anyway, last serious religion war ended in Europe in 1648.

One of the things that I always think about is the history that led to these values in the west and why did the middle east not develop a similar tradition.

Out of four main civilizations (West, Islam, India, China) the last 500 years (except maybe Asian tigers and China from Deng Xiaoping) were clearly successful for the West. The other civs were developing in the usual pace, I think that it was rather some anomaly in the West.

A while earlier, having to choose between golden age of Islam and Europe in the dark ages, I would clearly put my money on Islam. (with maybe some hopes that honour of Christianity would be saved by Byzantium :D )

 

[Astronuc]

In unison, Muslim clerics lash out against Islamic State
http://news.yahoo.com/jihadi-preacher-lashes-against-islamic-state-methods-095147477.html

Unfortunately, a few blame the west. Daesh is homegrown.
Time to wake up and check that bad smell in the backyard.I guess extreme extremists are too much for the extremists.

http://news.yahoo.com/photo-king-jordan-looking-badass-132100812.html
Jordan's King Abdullah II can pull it off. He's no Michael Dukakis.

 

[nsaspook]

http://news.yahoo.com/photo-king-jordan-looking-badass-132100812.html
Jordan's King Abdullah II can pull it off. He's no Michael Dukakis.

Yes, we trained him well.

 

[HossamCFD]

Unfortunately, a few blame the west. Daesh is homegrown.
Time to wake up and check that bad smell in the backyard.I guess extreme extremists are too much for the extremists.

You'll be surprised how many normal people, ones that are not even particularly religious, believe Daesh is an American invention.

 

[Dotini]

Some say, figuratively, ISIS was invented at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and Bagram.

 

[nsaspook]

Some say, figuratively, ISIS was invented at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and Bagram.

That's like saying prison created the Crip & Bloods gangs. The mentality for theses actions existed long before those places. They were just a meeting ground for evil misfits with a chip on the shoulder who now have some common bond to build on. I see a lot in common with their development as a gang to LA street gangs.


What sets off Daesh from most gangs was level of support they had in the wider community before their true criminal colors were shown.

 

[Czcibor]

Some say, figuratively, ISIS was invented at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and Bagram.

You analyse it too much from Western perspective. The problem is that for some Muslims already provoking enough thing is what they perceive as occupation of Andalusia (which you may incorrectly just consider as Spain).

 

[Pythagorean]

I thought Sykes Picot (conquerors promising land to more than one people) was the primary drive for ISIS?

 

[Astronuc]

You'll be surprised how many normal people, ones that are not even particularly religious, believe Daesh is an American invention.

I suppose I wouldn't be too surprised. There are similar trends for conspiracy theories in the west. I would imagine that many Muslims cannot believe the depravity of Daesh. It's so outside the norm.

Some say, figuratively, ISIS was invented at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and Bagram.

I think some members of Daesh have indicated that the collection of so many in the prisons in Iraq gave opportunity for contact and organization. Al Baghdadi used his time in Camp Bucca to develop his network.

 

[Astronuc]

Official: UAE sends F-16s to Jordan to fight Islamic State
http://news.yahoo.com/interior-minister-jordan-wipe-islamic-state-group-124250081.html

AMMAN, Jordan (AP) — The United Arab Emirates said Saturday it ordered a squadron of F-16 fighters to Jordan, which an official said would participate in airstrikes on the Islamic State group after the UAE earlier suspended its involvement.

Looks like some folks have had enough of Daesh - finally.

 

[Astronuc]

Prince Charles says he fears for Christians in Middle East
http://news.yahoo.com/prince-charles-says-fears-christians-middle-east-000239569.html

I fear for anyone in the ME in arms reach of Daesh or similar groups of deranged people with weapons.

I hope out of this hell that Sunna and Shia can come together, along with Kurds, Christians and other religions, and stop this madness!

 

[Dotini]

I just watched a report on 26 year old Kayla Mueller on CNN, covering details of her family, education, previous activism and ultimate capture in 2013. An ardent idealist, she became enmeshed in a battlefield love affair, a plot fit for a movie.

CBS News reported in August 2014 that ISIS had demanded a ransom of $6.6 million for Kayla.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...of-American-aid-worker-kidnapped-by-Isil.html

According to an ABC news broadcast I have just monitored, the other 3 executed Americans had all been offered up for ransom by ISIS, but the US policy is "No" to ransom. ABC also report that policy is now under review!

 

[Astronuc]

Stand with King Abdullah now and give him all he needs to fight radical Islam
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/02/07/stand-with-king-abdullah-now-and-give-him-all-needs-to-fight-radical-islam/

A rare time when I can agree with a commentator on Fox news.Meanwhile - Jordanian Military Goes After ISIS Again in Syria
https://screen.yahoo.com/jordanian-military-goes-isis-again-143049652.html

 

[jim hardy]

http://news.yahoo.com/photo-king-jordan-looking-badass-132100812.html
Jordan's King Abdullah II can pull it off. He's no Michael Dukakis.

First paragraph of that link:

Jordan's King Abdullah II, a former commander of his country's special forces , angrily vowed to bombard the Islamic State until his military runs "out of fuel and bullets"

i'd send him a case of .308...

 

[Astronuc]

Jordan pounds IS as Iraqi ground offensive looms
http://news.yahoo.com/jordan-says-56-targets-destroyed-three-days-strikes-143331641.html

US shipload of weapons and ammunition arrives in Lebanon - ostensibly to prevent Daesh from invading Lebanon.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-shipload-weapons-ammunition-arrives-lebanon-114259011.html

U.S. delivers arms to Lebanon, says fighting 'same enemy'
http://news.yahoo.com/u-delivers-arms-lebanon-says-fighting-same-enemy-151525963.html

Meanwhile - Mysterious woman from Canada’s rapid rise in ISIS puzzles intel analysts
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/08/mysterious-woman-from-canadas-rapid-rise-in-isis-puzzles-intel-analysts/

 

[Astronuc]

Afghanistan drone strike 'kills IS commander Abdul Rauf'
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31290147

From the BBC - Where else Islamic State (Daesh) has metastasized.

Egypt: Based in Sinai, the IS branch was essentially a re-branding of Ansar Beit al-Maqdis, which first emerged in 2011 in the wake of the Egyptian revolution.

Libya: Three distinct Libyan IS "provinces" were announced in November - Barqah in the east, Tripoli in the west and Fazzan in the south.

Algeria: A breakaway group from al-Qaeda's North Africa branch (AQIM), the IS branch rose to prominence in September when it beheaded French tourist Herve Gourdel. Since then it has been largely silent.

Yemen and Saudi Arabia: The new branches have not claimed any activities yet but the move represents a symbolic challenge to al-Qaeda.

Afghanistan-Pakistan: IS says its branch here represents the historic Khorasan Province - a region covering Afghanistan, Pakistan and "other nearby lands".

Meanwhile - back in the not-so-caliphate, Daesh pulls forces and hardware from Syria's Aleppo
http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-pulls-forces-hardware-syrias-aleppo-rebels-142427116.html

AMMAN (Reuters) - Islamic State has withdrawn some of its insurgents and equipment from areas northeast of the Syrian city of Aleppo, rebels and residents say, adding to signs of strain in the Syrian provinces of its self-declared caliphate.

but Daesh may be looking for new targets - is Jordan the next target?
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-09/why-jordan-is-islamic-state-s-next-target

 

[Astronuc]

Kurds recapture ground from IS north of Mosul: US
http://news.yahoo.com/kurds-recapture-ground-north-mosul-us-190112749.html

and Syria doesn't appreciate Jordan's contribution in destroying Daesh
http://news.yahoo.com/syria-says-doesnt-jordans-help-against-122254827.html

BEIRUT (AP) — Syria's foreign minister on Monday criticized neighboring Jordan, which recently stepped up airstrikes against Islamic State group targets in Syria, and said his country does not need outside help in battling militants.

They want someone else to do it?

 

[Astronuc]

Emirates launches airstrikes from Jordan on Islamic State
http://news.yahoo.com/assad-messages-us-led-coalition-battling-071349247.html

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — The United Arab Emirates launched airstrikes Tuesday against the Islamic State group from an air base in Jordan, marking its return to combat operations against the militants after it halted flights late last year.

 

[Astronuc]

American hostage Kayla Mueller's handwritten letter from IS captivity says she was safe, unharmed
http://news.yahoo.com/kayla-mueller...ty-says-she-was-safe--unharmed-174002266.html

After publicly holding out hope that their daughter was still alive, Kayla Mueller’s family http://news.yahoo.com/obama-confirms-death-us-hostage-held-islamic-state-151207634.html%20 , as did the U.S. government, that the 26-year-old American aid worker is dead. And the family shared publicly a letter Mueller had written to them while in captivity.

Mueller had been held hostage by the Islamic State group since 2013, when she was kidnapped leaving a Doctor’s Without Borders hospital in the Syrian capital Aleppo. After Mueller’s death had been verified, her family released a copy of a letter Mueller wrote them from captivity in early 2014.

Family Confirms U.S. Hostage Kayla Mueller Dead
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/02/10/385182490/u-s-hostage-kayla-mueller-confirmed-dead

Arizona mountain town mourns for American woman held by IS
http://news.yahoo.com/parents-american-woman-held-notified-her-death-151102219.html Peace be upon Kayla.

 

[Dotini]

Watching CNN after returning home from the dentist's office, I idly watched a CNN report discussing the latest figure of 20,000 foreign recruits for ISIS. Here I may have stumbled upon the secret for ISIS's ability to recruit so many people from Europe, North Africa and now Central Asia.

In addition to the usual jihad-against-infidels, they are promised pay, a bucolic lifestyle, and a rich sex life! I am not kidding - this was on Wolf Blitzer's show.

 

[Borg]

In addition to the usual jihad-against-infidels, they are promised pay, a bucolic lifestyle, and a rich sex life!

You've got to read the fine print... oo)
Actor portrayal of Daesh lifestyle. Enlistment in Daesh may result in maiming that could greatly impact your sex life. Some Daesh enlistees have experienced sudden explosive death syndrome due to coalition bombing. Individual results may vary.

Daesh promises of pay, lifestyle, and sex life does not constitute a guarantee of actual lifestyle. Bucolic lifestyle and rich sex life only redeemable upon forfeiture of life as a martyr. Bucolic lifestyle is seen on a TV while you suffer eternal damnation. Any resemblance to actual persons, previously martyred, is unintentional and purely coincidental. Good luck with that 72 virgins thing.

 

[lisab]

You've got to read the fine print... oo)
Actor portrayal of Daesh lifestyle. Enlistment in Daesh may result in maiming that could greatly impact your sex life. Some Daesh enlistees have experienced sudden explosive death syndrome due to coalition bombing. Individual results may vary.

Daesh promises of pay, lifestyle, and sex life does not constitute a guarantee of actual lifestyle. Bucolic lifestyle and rich sex life only redeemable upon forfeiture of life as a martyr. Bucolic lifestyle is seen on a TV while you suffer eternal damnation. Any resemblance to actual persons, previously martyred, is unintentional and purely coincidental. Good luck with that 72 virgins thing.

dammit Borg, I had just taken a bite of rice crispies when I read that...