News Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

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The Iraqi government is facing imminent collapse under insurgent pressure, with ISIS reportedly taking control of Mosul. The U.S. has refused military aid to Iraq, primarily to avoid appearing to support Prime Minister al-Maliki, whose Shiite leadership could be seen as backing Iran. Concerns are rising that if insurgents gain control of Baghdad, it could lead to increased conflict with Iran. The Iraqi army, despite being well-trained and outnumbering ISIS, has shown reluctance to engage, leaving military equipment behind in their retreat. The situation is evolving into a civil war, raising fears of broader regional instability and the potential resurgence of terrorism globally.
  • #801
In what might sound like a clever trick, Russia has announced its support for parliamentary and presidential elections in Syria, as well as readiness to provide air support for the Free Syrian Army, which Russian foreign minister Lavrov characterized as the "patriotic opposition".
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-ready-support-free-syrian-army-air-100733500.html
 
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  • #802
Chronos said:
he Iraqi government, under severe military pressure from insurgents, is apparently on the verge of collapse. They requested US military aid, but, were refused. Is it just me, or does anyone else find this disturbing?

I think it boils down to how many young soldiers are going to die?

There is no win-win situation, the last time I read about the complexity of being there was, that the American soldiers were getting shot from all sides (Sunnis, Shias )
Then the multifaceted terrorists groups were happy to rush to the conflicts where Americans and western countries were involved just to get a good shoot at the soldiers.
Add up that the cost of being there maybe was around a trillion, <----(inputs are welcome), our debt is in trillions too ( input is welcome). The economy strength of the dollar or our economy is/was ( you pick) touchy. The European countries along with America are not so excited about going in there any more (popularity loss?), I think Canada is pulling out (right?).

But then it also comes to what would you rather have spend all that money in the Middle East or fix the deficits in our economy? as Social security for example? Many states have huge deficits. I was wondering, all those men that rush out of Syria should have being trained and armed, send to fight for their country a Syrian draft, (instead of westerners ) and give the asylum to women, elders and children.
Tough decisions for any president or government of the Western Hemisphere. :frown:
 
  • #803
Guapa said:
I think it boils down to how many young soldiers are going to die?

There is no win-win situation, the last time I read about the complexity of being there was, that the American soldiers were getting shot from all sides (Sunnis, Shias )
Then the multifaceted terrorists groups were happy to rush to the conflicts where Americans and western countries were involved just to get a good shoot at the soldiers.
Add up that the cost of being there maybe was around a trillion, <----(inputs are welcome), our debt is in trillions too ( input is welcome). The economy strength of the dollar or our economy is/was ( you pick) touchy. The European countries along with America are not so excited about going in there any more (popularity loss?), I think Canada is pulling out (right?).

But then it also comes to what would you rather have spend all that money in the Middle East or fix the deficits in our economy? as Social security for example? Many states have huge deficits. I was wondering, all those men that rush out of Syria should have being trained and armed, send to fight for their country a Syrian draft, (instead of westerners ) and give the asylum to women, elders and children.
Tough decisions for any president or government of the Western Hemisphere. :frown:
I think that it would be an interesting idea... I doubt the effectiveness of such army... however seeing a face of Kosovian Albanian who pretends being a Syrian would be a worthy... ;)

That's Western EU... curious how many of them would immediately declare being conscientious objectors... So far they deserve top grades for gaming the system...
 
  • #804
:rolleyes: Kosovian Albanian, soldiers?

The Irak-Bush II war cost I think 3000 American dead soldiers and I think 500,000 wounded. (clarification is welcome) .

The groups involved:
Syrian Gov. Forces and:Ba'ath Brigades[1], PFLP–GC[2], Syrian Social Nationalist Party[3], Arab Nationalist Guard[4], Syrian Resistance [5], Jaysh alMuwahhideen[3],Forces of Abu Ibrahim[6],Sootoro, Palestine Liberation Army[7],Liwa Abu al-Fadhal al-Abbas[8], Liwa Fatemiyoun[9], Fatah al-Intifada[10], Badr Organization[11], Asa'ib Ahl al-Haq[11], Kata'ib Hezbollah[12], Peace Companies[13], Arab Democratic Party[14], DHKP-C[15], Faylak Wa’ad al-Sadiq[16], Houthis[17]
Jaysh al-Wafaa[18], Liwa Al Quds, Liwa Dhu al-Fiqar[19][20], Dareh al-Sahel[21], Dareh al-Areen[21], Al-Hosn[21], Dareh al-Watan[21], al-Berri clan[22][23], Tayy tribe militias[24], al-Jihesh tribe militias[25], Maghawir Forces[26], Kata'ib Sayyid al-Shuhada, Popular Committees (2012), Syria Slavonic Corps[27][28] (2013),InfoboxHez.PNG Hezbollah[29], Iran[30][31][32], Quds Force[33], Basij[34][35][36], Revolutionary Guards[37], Russia[38], Armament support:, Russia[39][40], North Korea[41][42][43], Iraq[44]
Belarus[45], Egypt (from 2015)[46][better source needed], Cuba[47], Non-lethal support: Venezuela[48][49][50][51][52], Angola[53], China[54][55] Algeria[56]


Here We (?) are, notice at the very bottom:
Syrian oppositon and al Qaeda Network:

Allied armed groups:

Joint operations rooms:[85]

Armament support:

  • Qatar[111][112]
  • Saudi Arabia[111][113]
  • Turkey
  • 23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
    United States[114][115]
  • France[116]
  • Libya[117] (until 2014)
  • Egypt (until 2013)
  • United Arab Emirates(until 2014)[118][119][120]
  • Jordan (until 2014)[121]
Non-lethal support:

Wikipedia source

We have some jihadist in our side or we are in their side for first, second, third? time in history? (some time we are friends and some times we are not)
So at one moment we are fighting al Qaeda and at another time we are "joined" or help ( input is welcome) al Qaeda. Pretty interesting situation. So it is not like we are not helping I believe. Just American foot soldiers (Army?) are not (?) thoroughly involved in the fighting I think. Very very complex indeed. Exhaustion might be the key for everyone to pack and go home, where ever home is. Let the water finds its level and come back another time.
 
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  • #805
Britain's Tony Blair: Iraq war contributed to rise of IS
Blair insisted that removing Saddam was the right thing to do, but apologized, as he has before, for failures in post-war planning.
http://news.yahoo.com/tony-blair-iraq-war-contributed-rise-101116941.html
 
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  • #806
IS blows up columns in Syria's Palmyra to execute 3: monitor
http://news.yahoo.com/blows-columns-syrias-palmyra-execute-3-monitor-204112651.html

Daesh = deranged and demented

Since the jihadists seized Palmyra from regime forces in May, they have destroyed multiple sites and historic artefacts, including its celebrated temples of Bel and Baal Shamin as well as several funerary towers.

IS has used Palmyra's grand amphitheatre for a massacre in which child members of the group killed 25 Syrian soldiers, execution-style, in front of residents.

It also beheaded Palmyra's 82-year-old former antiquities director in August.
 
  • #807
I've recently watched an interview with Julian Assange with regards to Syria's situation.
It turns out there were documents dating back to 2006 on plans to undermine the Syrian government.
 
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  • #808
fargoth said:
I've recently watched an interview with Julian Assange with regards to Syria's situation.
It turns out there were documents dating back to 2006 on plans to undermine the Syrian government.
That's pretty surprising. Syria has been a dictatorship led by the Assad family for 40 years. I would have expected plans to undermine it to have been kicked-around since the '80s.
 
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  • #809
russ_watters said:
That's pretty surprising. Syria has been a dictatorship led by the Assad family for 40 years. I would have expected plans to undermine it to have been kicked-around since the '80s.

I don't think the US has a problem with dictatorships.. They support\undermine them when there is a geopolitical\economical reason to do so, the human rights angle is just an excuse.
The Shah of Iran is one example. The situation in Saudi Arabia in terms of human rights is much worse than the one which existed in Syria prior to the uprising, yet I'm pretty sure the US does not plot to destabilize it (being it's ally). And what about Brunei, starting to apply the death penalty for being gay? Obama called it's Sultan one of his best friends (look up The Sultan and Nipples fleet - Last week tonight on youtube).
 
  • #810
fargoth said:
I don't think the US has a problem with dictatorships.. They support\undermine them when there is a geopolitical\economical reason to do so, the human rights angle is just an excuse.
The Shah of Iran is one example. The situation in Saudi Arabia in terms of human rights is much worse than the one which existed in Syria prior to the uprising, yet I'm pretty sure the US does not plot to destabilize it (being it's ally). And what about Brunei, starting to apply the death penalty for being gay? Obama called it's Sultan one of his best friends (look up The Sultan and Nipples fleet - Last week tonight on youtube).

I think that you try to shock Russ with info that US could accommodate some dictators... I'm as surprised by this info as he is :D
I think, that you did not get his message. That's not about "fighting dictators", it's about some "long term, usually low intensity confrontation with Assad family".
 
  • #811
It could be that Russia has an ulterior motive for supporting Assad. It also could it be that Russia is only defending Assad in a small part of Syria where Russia has a military asset.

The Syrian government also allowed the Soviet Union to build a resupply station at the port of Tartus, which is now Russia's sole remaining naval base in the Middle East and on the Mediterranean sea.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/09/economist-explains-22
 
  • #812
Yes, my interpretation was that we were supposed to find the news that we've been investigating how to undermine Assad for 10 years shocking, when in reality it is an entirely normal thing. The issue of my use of the word "dictatorship" (lazy? Perhaps) is besides the point.

It's been my perception that Wikileaks, more than anything else, is a misplaced outrage generator.
 
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  • #813
Here is the article I was looking for in regards to Russia leaving Assad in power of only a small portion of Syria.

President Obama says Russia is doomed to fail in the Syrian quagmire. But Russia is not trying to reconquer the country for Assad. It is consolidating a rump Syrian state in the roughly 20 percent of the country he now controls, the Alawite areas stretching north and west from Damascus through Latakia and encompassing the Russian naval base at Tartus

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...643b98-78e5-11e5-bc80-9091021aeb69_story.html

Then again this is only an opinion piece from Charles Krauthammer. Could the hammer be correct? It does sound logical.
 
  • #814
russ_watters said:
Yes, my interpretation was that we were supposed to find the news that we've been investigating how to undermine Assad for 10 years shocking, when in reality it is an entirely normal thing. The issue of my use of the word "dictatorship" (lazy? Perhaps) is besides the point.

It's been my perception that Wikileaks, more than anything else, is a misplaced outrage generator.

I personally suspect that there is a high demand for shocking secret news, so people settle with a substitute. I can't explain otherwise why people in the UK were excited by Prince Charles letters or in Poland about "waiter conspiracy" - tape recordings of our politicians.
 
  • #815
Defense secretary says US is retooling fight against IS
http://news.yahoo.com/us-defense-chief-sees-changes-battle-islamic-state-141722374.html

Russia pounds Syrian rebels, then reaches out to opposition
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-pounds-syrian-rebels-then-reaches-opposition-211506422.html

What a mess.U.S. weighs special forces in Syria, helicopters in Iraq
http://news.yahoo.com/u-weighs-special-forces-syria-helicopters-iraq-020248563.html

Upping the ante.
 
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  • #816
fargoth said:
I don't think the US has a problem with dictatorships.. They support\undermine them when there is a geopolitical\economical reason to do so...

Countries don't have friends - only interests.

No matter where you live, this is true.
 
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  • #817
lisab said:
Countries don't have friends - only interests.
Well - friends when interests are mutual, and not, when interests are conflicting or competing.
 
  • #819
Czcibor said:
Those topic become somewhat intermingled, like in a good thriller:

Any idea to which topic one should put: "Ukrainians who through open source intelligence are gathering and publishing data about Russian involvement in Syria"
It could go in the thread on Russian and Chinese military reaching out. But it's part of the mess in Syria.Meanwhile - the turmoil in the Middle East and North Africa is motivating folks to migrate to Europe. Daesh is but one factor. Others include internal conflicts like that in Syria, and dysfunctional governments, like the one in Iraq.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/culture-clash-isis-could-send-101500405.html
Just this week, Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi complained about the dire fiscal situation in the country. Speaking on national TV, he said: "We make 59 trillion Iraqi dinars from exporting oil. When we take the cost of exportation out, that leaves us with 45 trillion. When we take the cost of serving the debts, we have 40 trillion left. The state employees' salaries and pensions cost us 50 trillion. How do we spend on war, health, education, agriculture, services, poverty and others?"
 
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  • #820
HossamCFD said:
Are there any right now? I really wish I could convince myself they exist, even if we have to stretch the term "moderate" a little bit.
Territory held by non-ISIS affiliated Sunnis? Of course, to include large areas of Iraq and Syria, not to mention the Sunni controlled nation-states. Or perhaps I misunderstand your point?

This sounds more like a fantasy. If by "decades ago" you're alluding to the first gulf war, then the Arabic/Sunni contribution was tiny, almost symbolic, compared to the American forces...

Kissinger is referring to the cold war period (he references 1973 in the essay) in which the US maintained western friendly states, as opposed to Soviet to client states, by arms deals among other means. Jordan and Saudi Arabia come to mind. As to scale, opposing ISIS has no comparison with the attack on the nation state of Iraq under Saddam which at the time was, I believe, the world's 5th largest army. How many tank factories has ISIS, or how many can they buy and have shipped in through a deep water port?

As to wishful thinking, let's apply context. How wishful is Kissenger's proposal with historic precdents, against the US's current non-air campaign air campaign and total US troop pull out from Iraq?

"Another problem is that neither Egypt nor Jordan have a huge incentive to fight"

Perhaps not "huge", yet, and hence the arms deal proposal by Kissenger. But Jordan has already attacked ISIS at least once with the King in the cockpit. Many ME states have reason to oppose ISIS, but without backup they might feel they're punching out of their weight class to conduct a foreign campaign against a guerrilla army.

Arms agreements and closer ties to the US won't cut it, and Arabic nationalistic sentiment isn't particularly high...

Debatable. Perhaps not, but by no means do I grant that arms deal motivations are simply wishful thinking and dismissed by hand waiving. As to closer ties to the US, well, unfortunately this US administration has done nearly everything it can to make closer ties to the US worth less than before for those in the US (faux red line threats, withdrawal of all Iraqi support, encouragement of Iranian shias, ...)

The Russians need to be convinced of that as well...must be guarantees that the Russians
In the present reality I see no guarantees obtainable from the Russians.
 
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  • #821
mheslep said:
Territory held by non-ISIS Sunnis? Of course, to include Iraq and Syria, not to mention the Sunni controlled nation-states. Or perhaps I misunderstand your point?

For some reason you seem to think that ISIS is the only problematic group over there... I think HossamCFD meant rebels who are not jihadist salafis or just plain terrorists ala PKK.
 
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  • #822
mheslep said:
Territory held by non-ISIS affiliated Sunnis? Of course, to include large areas of Iraq and Syria, not to mention the Sunni controlled nation-states. Or perhaps I misunderstand your point?
fargoth said:
I think HossamCFD meant rebels who are not jihadist salafis
Yes exactly. Excluding the Syrian kurds and the FSA, it seems all other rebels are in alliance with Al-Nusra front and other Jihadist groups that can't really be called moderate. This of course only applies to Syria. The situation in Iraq is different.

mheslep said:
Kissenger is referring to the cold war period in which the US maintained western friendly states, as opposed to Soviet to client states, by arms deals among other means.
I see. Well in this case it is less of a precedent. The Arab states friendly to the US were never "enlisted" to actually fight anyone in the cold war as far as I'm aware.

mheslep said:
As to wishful thinking, let's apply context. How wishful is Kissenger's proposal with historic precdents, against the US's current non-air campaign air campaign and total US troop pull out from Iraq?
I agree. The current strategy doesn't seem to lead anywhere.

I don't mean to dismiss Kissenger's proposal entirely. I'm just extremely sceptical that Arab states may take a leading role in a major offensive against ISIS that involves ground troops.
 
  • #823
The USA Today has a piece detailing the 16 times the US President has stated there would be "no boots on the ground in Syria". The earliest such statement, from August 2013, is typical:

"In no event are we considering any kind of military action that would involve boots on the ground, that would involve a long-term campaign. But we are looking at the possibility of a limited, narrow act that would help make sure that not only Syria, but others around the world, understand that the international community cares about maintaining this chemical weapons ban and norm. So again, I repeat, we're not considering any open-ended commitment. We're not considering any boots-on-the-ground approach."

The USA story was prompted by yesterday's announcement from the Obama administration of boots on the ground in Syria, specifically "less than 50" special forces are authorized to fight ISIS in Syria. The common sense observer might say this is a change in administration policy, but press secretary Earnest says no, the mission has "not changed". Why can't the Obama administration manage the least little bit of candor on Syria and ISIS? If they can not state their initial approach was ineffective, then at least say something like, conditions have changed, so we changed our approach? This Orwellian double think, i.e. "nothing to see here, move along", is destructive in numerous ways. It is disrespectful of the armed forces men and women sent into harms way there, encourages others such as allies to consider ISIS a non-problem, and, perhaps most importantly, avoids having the discussion about why those US boots are necessary (and I think they are).
 
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  • #824
Indeed - Analysis: Obama crosses own red line with Syrian deployment
http://news.yahoo.com/analysis-syria-deployment-obama-crosses-own-red-line-071956227--politics.html
 
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  • #825
mheslep said:
The USA Today has a piece detailing the 16 times the US President has stated there would be "no boots on the ground in Syria". The earliest such statement, from August 2013, is typical:
But it was the location, not the number, that elevated the significance of his Syrian decision. It was the first time the U.S. has openly sent forces into Syria, expanding the geographic reach of Obama's military efforts in the Middle East.
He's just making it official about what's been happening for a long time in Syria.
https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...nd-isis-isil-daesh.757697/page-8#post-4830197
 
  • #827
Islamic State takes Syrian town as fighting looks set to intensify
http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-takes-over-syrian-town-homs-province-084327922.html
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Islamic State fighters drove Syrian government forces from a town in the west of the country on Sunday, as fighting looked set to intensify despite a flurry of international diplomacy and talks between regional rivals.

The jihadists' advance came even as Russian warplanes and Syrian forces supported by them stepped up assaults against insurgents in west and northwest Syria, and the United States separately sought to increase pressure on Islamic State.
 
  • #828
After the well deserved solidarity with Paris, it seems appropriate to mention another ISIS atrocity that killed 41 people, this time in Beirut, one day before the Paris attacks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34805466

The blasts on Thursday evening struck in a busy shopping street. More than 200 people were wounded - many of them seriously, Health Minister Wael Abou Faour said.

The army said that two men wearing suicide vests carried out the attack. The first bomber detonated his explosive vest outside a Shia mosque, while the second blew himself up inside a nearby bakery.

ISIS issued a statement:
"After the apostates gathered in the area, one of the knights of martyrdom detonated his explosive belt in the midst of them," the statement said. It did not refer to Hezbollah's involvement in Syria.

Too much pain is caused by those lunatics.
 
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  • #831
nsaspook said:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

IMO Excellent article.

I wonder why western countries keep those who wish to join ISIS against their will and confiscate their passports... I would have even helped them to get off my country and informed the Interpol so that they would be denied entrance to any proper country.
If you insist on preventing ISIS from growing, you could use these people as leads to the whereabouts of ISIS boot camps and infrastructure... Keeping them as forced residents is just begging for trouble.
 
  • #833
IS militants dig in, anticipating assault on Syria's Raqqa
http://news.yahoo.com/militants-dig-anticipating-assault-syrias-raqqa-200440454.html

The fighters are hiding in civilian neighborhoods and preventing anyone from fleeing, activists said.
Hiding behind civilians and non-combatants. Shameful!Russian military is cooperating with French forces in Syria.
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-minister-attacks-us-policy-syria-141642352.html
 
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  • #834
Astronuc said:
Hiding behind civilians and non-combatants. Shameful!
I wouldn't expect anything less from them.
 
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  • #835
Maylis said:
I wonder how the USA will still find a way to demonize Putin even though he is probably more effective against Isis than the US.

I had read where ISIS bombed a Russian passenger aircraft, killing all aboard. Is that a sign of effective response to ISIS? I read where Putin's missile batteries have shot down other passenger aircraft in Ukraine, killing all aboard. Is that what you call the demonization of Putin?
 
  • #837
mheslep said:
In a recent soccer game in Turkey, the crowd was asked to observe a moment of silence for the ISIS attacks in Paris which killed more than a hundred people. Result:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/s...-allahu-akbar-paris-tribute-article-1.2438142

Very insensitive indeed, but there might be more to it
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-not-a-mark-of-disrespect-claim-a6738741.html

However, comments on social media sites have suggested that the boos were not to disrespect those who had died in the attacks - but more to do with the hypocrisy of the Western world.

International teams did not hold a minute's silence after the Ankara terror attack in October. More than 100 people died in the Turkish capital after two bombs were set off outside the Ankara Central railway station on 11 October; Turkish fans also booed during a minute's silence of their game against Iceland on 13 October.
Abs Pangader Actually, they're chanting "Sehitler olmez, vatan bolunmez." Which means "Martyrs never die, the nation won't be divided." This is a common slogan thrown in remembrance of Turkish soldiers who fell victim to terrorism. In Turkey, there is rarely a minute of silence that isn't interrupted by this chant. Whether its a minute of silence for a Turkish catastrophe, or something else that happened globally, this always happens.
I don't speak Turkish so I don't know how plausible that claim is. Perhaps a Turkish PFer can shed some light on this. I definitely couldn't distinguish any 'Allahu Akbar' chants in the video though as the article you posted states.
 
  • #838
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  • #839
Why U.S. Efforts to Cut Off Islamic State’s Funds Have Failed
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-u-efforts-cut-off-090013562.html

Russia seems to targeting Daesh's oil infrastructure.Islamic State group making determined effort for chemical weapons, Iraqi, US officials say
http://news.yahoo.com/iraqi-us-officials-working-produce-152535005.html

Good reason to take out their petrochemical plants.
 
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  • #841
Daesh in Raqqa.
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/telling-the-truth-about-isis-and-raqqa

By the beginning of 2014, ISIS had absolute control of the city. They now overran the mosques, drove out Christians from the city, and turned major municipal buildings into their various headquarters. The propaganda campaign that ISIS mustered following the capture of Raqqa brought on a wave of foreigners.
. . . .
In mid-April, 2014, just a month after the first crucifixions in the city, a group of six like-minded young people started to talk to each other on Facebook. The group expanded only a little before ISIS discovered it. Within two or three weeks a local imam declared that anyone who worked with R.B.S.S. would be tracked down and executed. Some civilians were arrested simply because they “liked” a post on social media.

In May, 2014, R.B.S.S. suffered its first casualty. One of the men at the bar told me: “One of our reporters was stopped at a checkpoint and his equipment was confiscated and searched.” He was held for three weeks, then executed in a public square in Raqqa.

“In the beginning we didn’t think it was that dangerous,” Hamza said. “We didn’t think they would execute us. . . . "
Be thankful if one is not in Raqqa.
 
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  • #842
I'm impressed by the use of leaflets. They should use more of those things.
US warplanes have destroyed 283 fuel tankers that were being used to transport oil to help fund the Islamic State ...

US jets on Saturday first conducted a low-flying "show of force" over the trucks, then dropped leaflets telling drivers to flee. ...

... the leaflets dropped stated: "Get out of your trucks now, and run away from them."

... the drivers themselves were not thought to be jihadists.

... US A-10 air-to-ground attack planes and AC-130 gunships then destroyed the tankers, Davis said, adding there had been no reports of civilian casualties. "We have very methodically gone through this to ensure that we are doing this in a way that is humane and not going to cause civilian casualties," Davis said ...
http://news.yahoo.com/us-warplanes-destroy-283-fuel-trucks-syria-211341520.html
 
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  • #843
CUkiQ0yWEAA8x4V.png

_86856145_russian_plane_shot_down_624.png
The radar track show them crossing the border and out. Maybe 10-15 seconds at close to Mach 1. Not a hostile incursion or direct threat to Turkey but it was a technical incursion after Russia was warned many times before this. Totally unnecessary to shoot down a plane for this when a AA radar lock would have the same effect.

Turkey was on a hair-trigger and I suspect Russia will have fighter escorts with it's bombers the next time near the border.
 
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  • #844
The War Continues

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/russia-bombards-syrian-rebels-near-downed-russian-jet-122428258.html
YAYLADAGI, Turkey (Reuters) - Russian forces launched a heavy bombardment against insurgent-held areas in Syria's Latakia province on Wednesday, near where a Russian warplane had been shot down by Turkey the day before, rebels and a monitoring group said.

At least 12 air strikes hit Latakia's northern countryside as pro-government forces clashed with fighters from al Qaeda's Nusra Front and Turkmen insurgents in the Jabal Akrad and Jabal Turkman areas, the British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

A Turkmen commander said missiles fired from Russian warships in the Mediterranean were also hitting the area, as well as heavy artillery shelling.
 
  • #845
The population in that part of Syria are predominantly Turkmen, who are opposed to Assad. Turkey is an apparently ally and supporter of the Turkmen in Syria. Apparently there are al Nusra groups there as well. It makes me wonder if the aircraft that was shot down was attacking the Turkmen and al Nusra rather than Daesh.

With Russia supporting Assad, it would seem to put Russia in conflict with interests of US and EU, and parts of the ME.
 
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  • #846
Astronuc said:
. It makes me wonder if the aircraft that was shot down was attacking the Turkmen and al Nusra rather than Daesh..
Rather than? Russia's focus on entering Syria was not Daesh. As far as I know still is not.
 
  • #847
nsaspook said:
The radar track show them crossing the border and out. Maybe 10-15 seconds at close to Mach 1. ...
Thanks. What's the source for the time-speed information? I don't see any on the graphics.
 
  • #848
mheslep said:
Thanks. What's the source for the time-speed information? I don't see any on the graphics.
After Turkish representatives presented their side of the encounter at the meeting, they received expressions of support for their country’s territorial integrity, according to the diplomats’ account.

The Russian Su-24 that was struck was over the Hatay region of Turkey for about 17 seconds, according to one diplomat who attended the NATO meeting. But the plane re-entered Syrian airspace after being hit and therefore crashed in Syria, the diplomat said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/world/europe/turkey-syria-russia-military-plane.html?_r=0
russian-jet-shootdown-russianvers.png

They say 17 seconds but Russia says they didn't cross, period. Could they both be right?

http://arstechnica.com/information-...-russian-jet-for-disputed-airspace-violation/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925229
The foreign minister spent a fraught hour on the phone to his Turkish counterpart today, but his conclusion was critical: "We do not intend to go to war with Turkey," Sergei Lavrov assured the world.

Instead, ministries have been ordered to report back to the Kremlin on any projects involving Turkey, for a decision on possible sanctions. The future of a pipeline project could be in doubt and there have been calls for flights to Turkey to be suspended.

Meanwhile, tourists have been warned against traveling there for "security reasons". Last year, Turkey was the destination of choice for over three million Russian holidaymakers.
 
  • #849
nsaspook said:
The radar track show them crossing the border and out. Maybe 10-15 seconds at close to Mach 1.

Su-24 is a ground attack aircraft, it can barely manage 1.3 Mach on afterburner, and that at high altitude only. It's likely it wasn't going anywhere close to that velocity.
 
  • #850
"Columbia University's Program on Peace-building and Rights assigned a team of researchers in the United States, Europe, and Turkey to examine Turkish and international media, assessing the credibility of allegations. This report draws on a variety of international sources -- The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Daily Mail, BBC, Sky News, as well as Turkish sources, CNN Turk, Hurriyet Daily News, Taraf, Cumhuriyet, and Radikal among others."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/research-paper-isis-turke_b_6128950.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/11/report-turkey-collaborating-with-the-islamic-state

The allegations are as follows:

- Turkey Provides Military Equipment to ISIS
- Turkey Provided Transport and Logistical Assistance to ISIS Fighters
- Turkey Provided Training to ISIS Fighters
- Turkey Offers Medical Care to ISIS Fighters
- Turkey Supports ISIS Financially Through Purchase of Oil
- Turkey Assists ISIS Recruitment
- Turkish Forces Are Fighting Alongside ISIS
- Turkey Helped ISIS in Battle for Kobani
- Turkey and ISIS Share a Worldview
 

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