Is a 2 ply cylinder as strong as a 1 ply twice the thickness?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the structural integrity of a cylinder made from two layers of 2 mm thick steel compared to a single layer of 4 mm thick steel. Participants explore the implications of using an interference fit, the effects of welding, and the potential for buckling under pressure. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects, practical applications, and safety concerns related to energy storage systems involving pressure vessels.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether a shrink fit of two 2 mm cylinders can achieve the same strength in tension and buckling resistance as a solid 4 mm cylinder.
  • Others argue that achieving an interference fit with rolled sheet metal may be impractical due to deformation and welding issues.
  • One participant mentions that big gun barrels utilize a similar method of shrinking tubes, suggesting that this technique can enhance structural integrity under pressure.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for buckling due to imperfections in the cylinder shape, with some suggesting that buckling is unlikely if pressure is evenly distributed.
  • Several participants discuss the importance of bonding methods, such as soldering or using adhesives, to prevent delamination between the layers.
  • There is a debate about the necessity and impact of spot welding after shrink fitting, with some asserting it could introduce local stresses.
  • Participants express skepticism about the viability of using vacuum tanks for energy storage, citing structural challenges and limited energy density compared to pressurized systems.
  • Safety concerns regarding the construction of pressure vessels are highlighted, with warnings about the risks associated with compressed gases.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the two-layer cylinder can match the performance of a single thicker cylinder. Multiple competing views exist regarding the effectiveness of interference fits, the necessity of bonding methods, and the safety implications of pressure vessels.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in achieving perfect cylindrical shapes with rolled sheets and the potential for deformation during welding. The discussion also reflects uncertainty about the structural performance of layered cylinders under various conditions.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to engineers, materials scientists, and hobbyists exploring the design and safety of pressure vessels, as well as those considering energy storage solutions involving compressed gases.

  • #31
jrmichler said:
what maximum pressure you are designing for,
Yes; the details are very important. Springs and gravity stores have been used for hundreds of years for a good reasons.

I can only think of one example of compressed gas energy storage and that's in air guns. Apparently, a 12g CO2 cartridge can deliver up to 200 shots (maximum permitted is 10J a shot so a couple of kJ stored - that's one Watt for half an hour, minus the efficiency losses). I brought that up as a ball park figure for what can be done. Of course, that ignores the actual energy involved in filling up the cartridge which would be very relevant in terms of 'energy storage'. Also one would have to consider the health and safety considerations involved in the factory producing them and the very high spec needed for the canisters. [Edit: about 60Bar]
 
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  • #32
sophiecentaur said:
I can only think of one example of compressed gas energy storage
I've been on dive boats that use a scuba tank to power the starter for their diesel engine, which seemed to work well. No dead battery issues. But it's telling that you only see this in a niche application where they had to have a bunch of high pressure cylinders onboard anyway.
 
  • #33
DaveE said:
But it's telling that you only see this in a niche application where they had to have a bunch of high pressure cylinders onboard anyway.
Many big diesel engines, in generators, HGV trucks, railway engines and ships, use compressed air to start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-start_system
 
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  • #34
DaveE said:
I've been on dive boats that use a scuba tank to power the starter for their diesel engine, which seemed to work well. No dead battery issues. But it's telling that you only see this in a niche application where they had to have a bunch of high pressure cylinders onboard anyway.
Now you’ve jogged my memory I remember starting aero engines with a blank cartridge.
Better than carrying a large battery. But I remember a light plane being forbidden to take off with its flat (lunch box size) battery. A jump start was’t allowed either.
No real excuse for a defunct dive boat battery though. Makes me wonder what else could have let them down in an emergency. But five bottles always(!) should have some air in them after a dive.
The numbers count in this project so other applications may not be relevant. Modelling does not always give valid conclusions in some engineering problems.
 

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