Is AB Invertible If n < m and B has a Non-Trivial Kernel?

  • Context: High School 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Buffu
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Linear algebra Matrix
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the invertibility of the product of two matrices, specifically when matrix A is an m x n matrix, matrix B is an n x m matrix, and n is less than m. Participants explore the implications of B having a non-trivial kernel on the invertibility of the product AB, engaging in both proof techniques and notation preferences.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that if A is an m x n matrix and B is an n x m matrix with n < m, then AB is not invertible, using a proof by contradiction.
  • Another participant questions the necessity of the proof by contradiction, suggesting that the non-trivial kernel of B directly implies that AB cannot be invertible.
  • Some participants discuss preferences for direct proofs over proofs by contradiction, citing clarity and ease of integration with other concepts.
  • A participant introduces a visual component to the proof, noting that AB can be expressed as a sum of rank one updates, leading to the conclusion that AB has at most rank n, which is less than m, and thus is not invertible.
  • There is a suggestion to clarify notation, particularly regarding the representation of vectors and matrices in the context of the discussion.
  • One participant acknowledges the effectiveness of the original proof while also suggesting improvements in notation for clarity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the proof techniques used, particularly the use of contradiction versus direct proof. While there is agreement on the conclusion that AB is not invertible, the discussion remains open regarding the best methods to demonstrate this result.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential ambiguities in notation and the importance of clearly distinguishing between vectors and matrices. There is also mention of the rank of matrices and its implications for invertibility, which may depend on the definitions and assumptions made in the discussion.

Buffu
Messages
851
Reaction score
147
If ##A## is ##m \times n## matrix, ##B## is an ##n \times m## matrix and ##n < m##. Then show that ##AB## is not invertible.

Let ##R## be the reduced echelon form of ##AB## and let ##AB## be invertible.

##I = P(AB)## where ##P## is some invertible matrix.

Since ##n < m## and ##B## is ##n \times m## therefore there is a non trivial solution to ##B\mathbf X = 0##
Let it be ##\bf X_0##

##I\mathbf X = P(AB)\mathbf X_0 \implies \mathbf X_0 = PA (B \mathbf X_0) = PA \times 0 = 0##

Which means ##\mathbf X_0 = 0##, which is contradiction. Therefore ##AB## is not invertible.

Is this correct ?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
This look ok, though I don't really think the proof by contradiction is necessary?

Notation wise, I would probably have used ##\mathbf x## to denote a vector in ##B \mathbf x = 0## -- as is, I'm not sure if the X is a matrix or vector, but it would be customary to use a vector here. Further, I wouldn't write ##A \times 0##... that looks like a cross product?

I typically avoid proofs by contradiction if feasible. It occurs to me that when you note that ##B \mathbf x_0 = 0## for some ##\mathbf x_0 \neq 0##, this tells us right away that ##AB## is not invertible. By definition an invertible matrix does not map any non-zero vector to the zero vector and ##(AB)\mathbf x_0 = A(B\mathbf x_0) = A \mathbf 0 = \mathbf 0##, but clearly ##(AB)## does so and hence is not invertible.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Buffu
StoneTemplePython said:
This look ok, though I don't really think the proof by contradiction is necessary?

Notation wise, I would probably have used ##\mathbf x## to denote a vector in ##B \mathbf x = 0## -- as is, I'm not sure if the X is a matrix or vector, but it would be customary to use a vector here. Further, I wouldn't write ##A \times 0##... that looks like a cross product?

I typically avoid proofs by contradiction if feasible. It occurs to me that when you note that ##B \mathbf x_0 = 0## for some ##\mathbf x_0 \neq 0##, this tells us right away that ##AB## is not invertible. By definition an invertible matrix does not map any non-zero vector to the zero vector and ##(AB)\mathbf x_0 = A(B\mathbf x_0) = A \mathbf 0 = \mathbf 0##, but clearly ##(AB)## does so and hence is not invertible.

Thank you, I made it more complicated :(. I used bold to indicate it is a vector.

Why do you avoid proof by contradiction ?
 
I suppose it is a matter of taste, but if I can show something directly, I try to show it directly. It tends to make a lot more sense to me, I can generally directly attach it into a lattice work of other ideas and theorems, is easier to remember and so on.

The tradeoff is that some things can only be shown by contradiction, or in some other cases, perhaps the proof by contradiction is a paragraph and a direct proof (say, a derivation) takes 3 pages. So you have to pick your spots.

Perhaps more idiosyncratically, I would add that I've become fond of proofs that have a "visual" component to them. In this case, we could note

##AB = \mathbf a_1 \widetilde{\mathbf b_1}^T + \mathbf a_1 \widetilde{\mathbf b_2}^T + ... + \mathbf a_n \widetilde{\mathbf b_n}^T##

which is to say ##(AB)## is an m x m matrix that is comprised of a series of ##n## rank one updates. When you add ##n## rank one matrices, you have a matrix with at most rank ##n##. Hence ##(AB) ## has at most rank ##n \lt m## and isn't invertible.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Buffu
StoneTemplePython said:
I suppose it is a matter of taste, but if I can show something directly, I try to show it directly. It tends to make a lot more sense to me, I can generally directly attach it into a lattice work of other ideas and theorems, is easier to remember and so on.

The tradeoff is that some things can only be shown by contradiction, or in some other cases, perhaps the proof by contradiction is a paragraph and a direct proof (say, a derivation) takes 3 pages. So you have to pick your spots.

Perhaps more idiosyncratically, I would add that I've become fond of proofs that have a "visual" component to them. In this case, we could note

##AB = \mathbf a_1 \widetilde{\mathbf b_1}^T + \mathbf a_1 \widetilde{\mathbf b_2}^T + ... + \mathbf a_n \widetilde{\mathbf b_n}^T##

which is to say ##(AB)## is an m x m matrix that is comprised of a series of ##n## rank one updates. When you add ##n## rank one matrices, you have a matrix with at most rank ##n##. Hence ##(AB) ## has at most rank ##n \lt m## and isn't invertible.

I also like that type of proofs but the more elegant a proof is the more difficult it is to derive.
 
Buffu said:
I also like that type of proofs but the more elegant a proof is the more difficult it is to derive.

Don't worry about it. Your proof worked fine.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Buffu
Buffu said:
If ##A## is ##m \times n## matrix, ##B## is an ##n \times m## matrix and ##n < m##. Then show that ##AB## is not invertible.

Let ##R## be the reduced echelon form of ##AB## and let ##AB## be invertible.

##I = P(AB)## where ##P## is some invertible matrix.

Since ##n < m## and ##B## is ##n \times m## therefore there is a non trivial solution to ##B\mathbf X = 0##
Let it be ##\bf X_0##

##I\mathbf X = P(AB)\mathbf X_0 \implies \mathbf X_0 = PA (B \mathbf X_0) = PA \times 0 = 0##

Which means ##\mathbf X_0 = 0##, which is contradiction. Therefore ##AB## is not invertible.

Is this correct ?
EDIT OWise, you seem to be saying/arguing that the kernel of B is contained in the kernel of AB, which is true, and proves the point.
Just to nitpick a bit; you may want to put an index in your identity I , to know whether it is the ##n \times n ; m \times m##, etc. Here , it is ##n \times n ## , by matrix product rules. Specially if you are doing proofs, it is a good idea.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Buffu

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K