Medical Is alcohol the most destructive drug on the planet?

[Ivan Seeking]

I've seen lives destroyed by drugs or alcohol before but never have I seen someone completely melt down in just two years, on booze. Unfortunately, that is what we just witnessed. It only took this poor woman two years of drinking to drive herself into kidney failure and the CCU. Today she is still unconscious and in critical condition. For the last day and a half we thought she may not survive. She is a little over forty years of age.

I used to think meth was the most destructive drug on the planet, but after seeing this I have to give the trophy to booze. This has been incredibly sad and distrurbing to watch.

I reeeeeeeeeeally hate booze... so much so that it makes me feel a bit ill just to be around people who are drinking. All that it takes is one look at that stupid grin people get on their face and I have to leave.

 

[Evo]

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

She must have had underlying problems that were exacerbated by alcohol, topped with possibly huge amounts of alcohol. Some people are self destructive and there is nothing you can do to stop them.

 

[micromass]

I agree Ivan, I've talked to many relatives of alcoholics and I know what kind of destruction this addication can bring. It doesn't only hurt the alcoholic himself, but it affects all the relatives!

Don't get me wrong, I like the occasional glass of wine (I don't like to get drunk though). But I feel it's too easy for people to get addicted to alcohol. There have been a huge number of laws and campaigns against smoking. But alcohol is so much more destructive...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

She must have had underlying problems that were exacerbated by alcohol, topped with possibly huge amounts of alcohol. Some people are self destructive and there is nothing you can do to stop them.

No doubt she has big issues.

In my view, the real danger with alcohol is the perception that it's not a hard drug that destroys lives. No doubt she would never consider taking meth or something like that, but with alcohol being socially acceptable, it lures people into a sense of complacency. They don't believe they are taking a hard and dangerous drug.

After having my own close call with booze, I quit drinking on my 21st birthday.

 

[Danger]

I'm an alcoholic (and am pissed as a nit right now), and I agree with you wholeheartedly.
My recent hospitalization resulted in an immediate cessation of smoking. Next project is the booze. I thought that both at once would be too much of a shock to my system.
The only upside is that I seem capable of retaining almost half of my intellect when snorked.

 

[turbo]

I lost a good biker-buddy to booze. He was a Viet-Nam vet with PTSD and in the last year of his life, he was downing a 1.75L bottle of Canadian Club about every day, punctuated with regular Budweisers. Not good. It's sad to see how lonely and helpless some of our vets end up, and interventions by friends don't always work out well. If you try to get a big bear of a man to cut back on the drinking, and he's already half-lit, you should expect a less-than-friendly response.

 

[Danger]

If you try to get a big bear of a man to cut back on the drinking, and he's already half-lit, you should expect a less-than-friendly response.

It depends upon both the man and the approacher. I'm certainly no "bear", being 56kg soaking wet, but I was always heavily armed. (Minimum Llama IX in .45ACP.; maximum Ruger Super Blackhawk with .44 magnum semi-jacketed hollow points.)
If I'd ever gone off, you would probably have heard about it all the way down to where you live. Luckily, we Canuks have a less confrontational attitude than what is perceived as normal for Yanks. Upon the very few instances, spaced over more than 20 years, when I was tempted, a calm waitress or a gentle bouncer talked me out of doing something stupid. Diplomacy is a skill that every bar worker should have to study.

Edit: This is not meant to minimize the idea of PTSD, and I apologize if it seemed so. I know first-hand how devastating mental illness can be. I don't even want to discuss my brother, but my own is merely ADD. I refer to my medication as my "I don't want to kill anyone today pills". Perish forbid if I lived in the US without socialized medicine.

 

[pergradus]

Alcohol killed my father, I know more than probably anyone else how ugly and tragic alcoholism can be. Hope your friend survives, and if she does turns her life around.

 

[Lacy33]

(Minimum Llama IX in .45ACP.; maximum Ruger Super Blackhawk with .44 magnum semi-jacketed hollow points.)
If I'd ever gone off, you would probably have heard about it all the way down to where you live.

penciling in shiver, shake in fear, possible near faint. hmm, April 6-7, 2015? :!)

 

[Evo]

I was surprised to find that alcoholism is a disease. People can be extremely heavy drinkers and not be alcoholics.

Alcoholics get drunk much easier than non-alcoholics. They don't metabolize alcohol the same way as non-alcoholic heavy drinkers. There are a lot of differences. People need to realize that a true alcoholic is fighting much more of a battle than just a heavy drinker.

 

[Lacy33]

Alcoholics get drunk much easier than non-alcoholics.

I thought so...

Hello, My name is Lacy 33 and i am an alcoholic.

 

[Loren Booda]

A friend of mine was elected "Class Partier" in high school. At a party I witnessed him finish off a fifth of hard liquor, then another, and attempt a third. (I thought his capacity was a sign that he was an alcoholic.) I just made sure he did not drown in his own vomit, while others around him thought he was learning a lesson. A year later he joined the Navy.

Personally, I can't touch the stuff.

 

[Astronuc]

My sister-in-law's stepfather drank himself to death - literally. His liver and alimentary canal were shot. Ultimately he bled to death because lining of his intestines and colon was so gone that he simply bled out. By that time, he'd had multiple trips the emergency room for bleeding - but he didn't stop drinking - and it was probably too late that point anyway.

My dad counseled a guy who was being treating for alcoholism during increasingly frequent trips to a hospital emergency room. One time, the hospital found him out cold after drinking a bottle of rubbing alcohol. I believe they pumped his stomach and gave him IV ethanol until he passed the isopropanol. He apparently recovered from that event, but didn't live much longer after that.

 

[Lacy33]

Alcohol is horrible. I tossed it out of my life as soon as I was free from my ties to other that drank. I get sick fast from it. It has killed family members and I could have killed because of it. I have almost been killed because of it. strangled, knocked out, driven the wrong way on the San Diego frwy by a drinking driver, driven through a garage door of someone house at a dead end street by a drunken driver, raped by a drunk. Seen a woman burn to death in a car hit by a drunken driver. He got off with community service. If you all are on this forum, I HATE you.
I wish there was no such thing as alcohol and "recreational drugs." Thank you for listening to me.

 

[gravenewworld]

You can't quit drinking cold turkey if you're an alcoholic either. It could kill you.

 

[Borek]

With all the stories told I risk being lynched... but I have no problems with occasional drink. And I know plenty of people that are not abstinent, but are not alcoholics either.

As with many other things (including PF ) - it is not use, it is abuse that brings havoc.

 

[turbo]

With all the stories told I risk being lynched... but I have no problems with occasional drink. And I know plenty of people that are not abstinent, but are not alcoholics either.

As with many other things (including PF ) - it is not use, it is abuse that brings havoc.

No lynching from this quarter. I like decent scotch and old sour-mash whiskey, and it would be a sin not to have beer in the 'fridge on a hot day after yard-work or gardening. Still, watching my friend go to hell was so painful. I couldn't be around him enough to be a regular presence in his life. Whenever I entertained at a pig-roast, biker-party, etc, he was always there, and that kind of atmosphere is really not conducive to pleading for some moderation, especially when it's tough to get privacy enough to have a few words alone.

 

[Borg]

With all the stories told I risk being lynched... but I have no problems with occasional drink. And I know plenty of people that are not abstinent, but are not alcoholics either.

As with many other things (including PF ) - it is not use, it is abuse that brings havoc.

I agree as well. It's unusual if I have more than one drink at a party. Fortunately, I get a headache right away if I drink much more than that.

 

[cristo]

You can't just claim that alcohol is evil simply due to cases like these. Alcohol can be enjoyed in moderation (and even beyond once in a while) by responsible adults who know when to stop. If you are not able to be responsible and start drinking yourself into oblivion, then that is when you need to seek help.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

As with many other things (including PF ) - it is not use, it is abuse that brings havoc.

Alcohol can be enjoyed in moderation (and even beyond once in a while) by responsible adults who know when to stop. If you are not able to be responsible and start drinking yourself into oblivion, then that is when you need to seek help.

I whole heartedly agree with these statements. As with most things in life the fact that some people die because of it is not an indication that others cannot enjoy responsibly. I don't think it is fair to criticize those who drink on account of deaths due to alcoholism.

In spite of this Ivan I am very sorry for the loss of your friend.

 

[Lacy33]

You can't just claim that alcohol is evil simply due to cases like these. Alcohol can be enjoyed in moderation (and even beyond once in a while) by responsible adults who know when to stop. If you are not able to be responsible and start drinking yourself into oblivion, then that is when you need to seek help.

Cristo, some of us grew up in or connected to a generation at least in the USA where drinking was huge. We had entertainment personalities like the Rat Pack, with Dean Martian and (hic) can remember the others, who alwas had a drink and smoke in the hand.
The parents (in my case) were professional scientists and engineers by day and drinkers by night. There were huge elegant parties for friends and then other times for extended family where everyone drank too much. This drinking turned into constant drinking for many of the folks in that culture and they ended up a mess together with their children. A lot of child abuse went on with the drinking parents too. Good church type people would go to the pot lucks and drive home smashed.
This seemed to go directly into the extreme use of drugs in the 60-70's. Some of us ran for the hills, others stayed in and I honestly don't know how they survived.

 

[samu.k]

In my view, the real danger with alcohol is the perception that it's not a hard drug that destroys lives. No doubt she would never consider taking meth or something like that, but with alcohol being socially acceptable, it lures people into a sense of complacency. They don't believe they are taking a hard and dangerous drug.

I agree fully with this. People don't understand how dangerous alcohol is, they just laugh about it.

People seem to think that because its legal it can't be that dangerous, but it is.

 

[George Jones]

Alcohol killed my father

And mine as well.

 

[Lacy33]

Not just to be a "me too" but I have watched my friends die that bloody death from drinking. But why just say alcohol, cigarettes as well.
What's the matter of good clean living regardless of our backgrounds or former habbits? We can start any time and it does not take huge oaths or sacrifices to the godz. I know a lot of people who are doing this now.

Ivan I too am sorry for your loss.

 

[Proton Soup]

some people are simply using alcohol to numb pain. something that is more painful than the effects of the alcohol. and so it can become a form of slow suicide.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

some people are simply using alcohol to numb pain. something that is more painful than the effects of the alcohol. and so it can become a form of slow suicide.

I don't get this reason. Getting mildly drunk is maybe ok once a week, but anymore and I end up feeling terrible! Do addicts not feel ill? Do they really love the taste? I knew a guy who would drink 2-3 glasses of brandy every morning. wtf. i can barely get down a 1/2 glass at night on a weekend. I would think abusing painkillers or muscle relaxants would be much better.

 

[Loren Booda]

Is the ability to moderate supposedly innate, or do we have to find out whether we are drug abusers by trial and error?

 

[Proton Soup]

I don't get this reason. Getting mildly drunk is maybe ok once a week, but anymore and I end up feeling terrible! Do addicts not feel ill? Do they really love the taste? I knew a guy who would drink 2-3 glasses of brandy every morning. wtf. i can barely get down a 1/2 glass at night on a weekend. I would think abusing painkillers or muscle relaxants would be much better.

alcohol is a great social lubricant. for him, it may have reduced his anxiety of dealing with people.

 

[Astronuc]

I don't get this reason. Getting mildly drunk is maybe ok once a week, but anymore and I end up feeling terrible! Do addicts not feel ill? Do they really love the taste? I knew a guy who would drink 2-3 glasses of brandy every morning. wtf. i can barely get down a 1/2 glass at night on a weekend. I would think abusing painkillers or muscle relaxants would be much better.

I believe the body/brain adapts to a certain chemistry/feeling. I had a friend who upon waking up would immediately go to the refrigerator and down a beer. He didn't feel 'normal' without alcohol in his system, and that certainly contributed to the failure of his first marriage. He was subsequently hospitalized, and basically told if he didn't stop drinking he'd probably kill himself. I think he stopped briefly. I haven't seen him in person in years. We talk on the phone sometimes, and each time it's almost like I'm talking with a different person.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In my view, the real danger with alcohol is the perception that it's not a hard drug that destroys lives.

Alcohol can be enjoyed in moderation (and even beyond once in a while) by responsible adults who know when to stop.

These two statements are not incompatible.

The sneaky parts about alcohol are the social acceptance of drunkeness, and the fact that it is considered an acceptable social lubricant. What might be considered "strung out, stoned, stupid, tweeking, etc, for other drugs, is often referenced in euphamistic terms, like "tipsy", for booze [as a nondrinker, trust me, "stupid" works well as a descriptor for being "tipsy"]. And to make it worse, we act as if it is safe to consume ANY alcohol before driving a car.

Note: The woman mentioned in the op is still hanging on but it is touch and go.

 

[Borek]

To make things clear - my Dad was an alcoholic, and when he died he was just 54. Alcohol didn't kill him, but for sure played an important part in decline of his health.

Ivan: I agree with your point about the fact that alcohol is treated differently. It is not only in social reception, it is also in law (alcohol is legal, drugs are not). It is stupid if you ask me.

To be consistent we should either delegalize alcohol, or legalize drugs, I see no reason to treat them differently. I guess if marijuana was a part of our culture for several thousands years, and alcohol was a newcomer, situation would be exactly opposite.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ivan: I agree with your point about the fact that alcohol is treated differently. It is not only in social reception, it is also in law (alcohol is legal, drugs are not). It is stupid if you ask me.

Not where I was going with this but I see all drugs as being the same. This by definition includes alcohol.

What I find offensive [socially and intellectually] is the notion that alcohol is somehow safer than other drugs. In fact it is one of THE most dangerous drugs around.

 

[BobG]

Not where I was going with this but I see all drugs as being the same. This by definition includes alcohol.

What I find offensive [socially and intellectually] is the notion that alcohol is somehow safer than other drugs. In fact it is one of THE most dangerous drugs around.

It's characterized by the people that are most likely to use and/or abuse it instead of by its dangers. It's one of the few drugs where usage increases with education level (abuse also increases with education level to a certain extent).

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/DatabaseResources/QuickFacts/AlcoholConsumption/Pages/dkpat2.aspx : White, college educated males with a job are the most likely to consume alcohol.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/DatabaseResources/QuickFacts/AlcoholConsumption/Pages/dkpat21.aspx : White males, especially in the 18-25 range are the most likely to be heavy drinkers. The correlation between education and heavy alcohol use is kind of muddled, probably because unemployment drastically increases the likelihood of heavy drinking (or vice versa?). Education decreases the chances of being unemployed.

You'd think a higher education level would decrease the chances of a woman drinking during pregnancy, but that's apparently not the case: http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/publications/pubs-267/457.pdf. The most likely woman to drink during pregnancy is married, over 30, with more than a high school education.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Tsu just called to let me know that it looks like the woman in the op is going to make it. Even yesterday there was serious concern that her kidneys may not kick in again, or perhaps that her pancreas was damaged beyond hope. But for the first time since this happened we got good news. She's off the respirator and sitting up!

 

[turbo]

Tsu just called to let me know that it looks like the woman in the op is going to make it. Even yesterday there was serious concern that her kidneys may not kick in again, or perhaps that her pancreas was damaged beyond hope. But for the first time since this happened we got good news. She's off the respirator and sitting up!

Good news, Ivan. My best hopes for no relapse. Sometimes addicts fall off the wagon even after a serious scare. Hope she'll get counseling and stay clean.

 

[Borek]

Fingers crossed. Sometimes it takes getting to the bottom to start swimming up.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Good news, Ivan. My best hopes for no relapse. Sometimes addicts fall off the wagon even after a serious scare. Hope she'll get counseling and stay clean.

The sad and incredible part to me is that she didn't have a drinking problem until she suffered a family crisis, two years ago. It only took two years for this to happen. I've seen heroin addicts that fare better than this!

 

[Evo]

The sad and incredible part to me is that she didn't have a drinking problem until she suffered a family crisis, two years ago. It only took two years for this to happen. I've seen heroin addicts that fare better than this!

Like I said before, she most likely had underlying kidney disease or other problems she was not aware of. The drinking would worsen pre-existing conditions. Was she taking acetaminophen along with the alcohol? I know Tsu warned of how dangerous that was.

 

[Newai]

I used to think meth was the most destructive drug on the planet, but after seeing this I have to give the trophy to booze.

Perhaps because alcohol is legal and much more commonplace? What would happen if meth was made just as accessible?

 

[Evo]

Back to reality, this was not alcohol alone. Anyone have research to back that this damage this quick can be just alcohol consumption? Unless she was consuming lethal amounts of alcohol daily, which would make anything lethal.

Acetaminophen is probably one of the scariest and deadliest over the counter drugs there is. Much deadlier than alcohol, meth, or heroine. In the US it's known as Tylenol.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec21/ch326/ch326c.html

Alcohol alone could not have caused the damage that woman had in that time frame unless she had pre-exisiting problems or it's possible she was mixing alcohol with acetaminophen or other drugs. Let's stay realistic, although long term alcohol abuse can cause health problems, it cannot cause these problems in this short of a time frame by itself.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You will have to ask Tsu about that one. She's the one getting the information first hand, and according to her this was caused solely by alcohol. When I questioned whether this is even possible, she said this is not surprising at all.

I know you can die from alcohol poisoning by drinking just once.

Dunno, Tsu is the one with 35 years of medical and ER experience. She is up helping to take care of the woman's dogs today.

 

[Evo]

You will have to ask Tsu about that one. She's the one getting the information first hand, and according to her this was caused solely by alcohol. When I questioned whether this is even possible, she said this is not surprising at all.

I know you can die from alcohol poisoning by drinking just once.

Tsu is up helping to take care of the woman's dogs today.

I know people that have died from alcohol poisoning. Yes, you can die from a single overdose of alcohol. Long term damage though is just that, it's long term. Some people do have medical issues that by themselves won't be fatal, but will be fatal with large continued doses of alcohol.

Can a completely healthy person with no medical conditions develop these conditions you cite in 2 years, never heard of it. But one single huge ingestion of alcohol can kill, but it won't be kidney or liver disease.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I know people that have died from alcohol poisoning. Yes, you can die from a single overdose of alcohol. Long term damage though is just that, it's long term. Some people do have medical issues that by themselves won't be fatal, but will be fatal with large continued doses of alcohol.

Can a completely healthy person with no medical conditions develop these conditions you cite in 2 years, never heard of it. But one single huge ingestion of alcohol can kill, but it won't be kidney or liver disease.

Do you a source saying this is not possible, or is this just your opinion?

Esp given that you already changed the title. You just admitted that alcohol kills. What's the problem with being honest?

 

[Evo]

Do you a source saying this is not possible, or is this just your opinion?

Esp given that you already changed the title. You just admitted that alcohol kills. What's the problem with being honest?

The onus of proof is on the one making the claim. You know that. And I'll gladly change everything if you can prove what you claim is real.

I think it's a great discussion and people should be aware of the dangers of alcohol. But we also have to make sure that it's scientifically & medically correct.

 

[Ivan92]

I think I should have my views on alcohol in this thread and I am sorry to hear about all the problems that alcohol caused problems/deaths in family. I know people in my family who drink alcohol.

I think alcohol is not the most dangerous drug out there. It is dangerous in how it is being consumed. People think that getting drunk and binge drinking is all fun and games until someone suffers from serious health issues. Even when its for being depressed, abusing it is not the answer to the problems. I have taken sips before, but I don't drink. I chose to write papers on why the drinking age should be lowered to 18 have done an extensive amount of research into what alcohol does. One of the things I found out is that Alcohol, in moderation, is good for your health¹. People though do tend to abuse it, like any other drug. Alcohol is a drug and it is legal. But with a lot of other drugs, it can be abused. Alcohol is no different and we can see that. Yes its socially acceptable to drink but that is assuming you know when to stop.

Source:
1. http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/HealthIssues/1107279468.html

 

[russ_watters]

Do you a source saying this is not possible, or is this just your opinion?

Esp given that you already changed the title. You just admitted that alcohol kills. What's the problem with being honest?

Honest? You're arguing against a by definition/self evident reality! Its a pretty big claim to say that alcohol can destroy your kidneys in 2 years with no underlying exacerbating factor.

[edit] Actually, the OP is about kidney failure. I don't think kidney failure has an association with alcohol. Who made that connection - the doctors or you?!

The only thing the wiki says on the subject is that alcohol lowers the risk of developing kidney stones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_alcohol#Kidney_stones

 

[Ivan92]

The only thing the wiki says on the subject is that alcohol lowers the risk of developing kidney stones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_alcohol#Kidney_stones

Like I said, and my link supports that alcohol has it's health benefits. However, those who abuse are more susceptible to having health problems. You can't drink excessively and expect that it lowers the risk of developing kidney stones. I am sure that there are studies who can correlate excessive drinking and and kidney failure.

 

[russ_watters]

I absolutely understand that alcohol can cause a host of different health problems. But it should only be blamed for things it actually does and it doesn't look to me like it has more than a tangential relevance here. For example, here's what AARP has to say about people drinking with kidney disease: http://www.aakp.org/aakp-library/alcohol-consumption/

Basically, the link lists a handful of indirect effects drinking can have on your kidneys, such as increasing blood pressure and increasing urine output. It doesn't mention alcohol directly affecting the kidneys (as opposed to, say, the liver).

It can be comforting to blame an easy target, but that doesn't make it correct and being correct matters in this forum.

 

[Antiphon]

Not detracting from any of the negatives in this post; alcohol can and does ruin lives.

But there is another side. I have maybe 1-2 drinks per month and it's enjoyable. It has a certain beneficial effect on my immune system; this low dose can clear my complexion right up. Even daily drinking (1-2 or less) has been reported to have positive medical effects.

As with many things, some of us will react well while others will not at all.

 

[Proton Soup]

I absolutely understand that alcohol can cause a host of different health problems. But it should only be blamed for things it actually does and it doesn't look to me like it has more than a tangential relevance here. For example, here's what AARP has to say about people drinking with kidney disease: http://www.aakp.org/aakp-library/alcohol-consumption/

Basically, the link lists a handful of indirect effects drinking can have on your kidneys, such as increasing blood pressure and increasing urine output. It doesn't mention alcohol directly affecting the kidneys (as opposed to, say, the liver).

It can be comforting to blame an easy target, but that doesn't make it correct and being correct matters in this forum.

the problem with high blood pressure and kidneys is that kidneys help control blood pressure by regulating fluid and mineral levels. but HBP can damage the kidneys, making it harder to control blood pressure. so it's a positive feedback loop.

http://kidney.niddk.nih.gov/kudiseases/pubs/highblood/

it's all a matter of degree. obviously, some people drink quite a lot for many years. but someone who comes in late, maybe already obese and hypertensive, they might get hit a lot harder if they suddenly become a heavy drinker.