News Is Canada a Safer Alternative After Zimmerman Verdict?

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The discussion centers around the controversial not guilty verdict for George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, with participants expressing outrage over perceived injustices in the case. Many argue that Zimmerman acted unlawfully by pursuing Martin and that the verdict reflects a flawed justice system, particularly in Florida's "stand your ground" law. There is significant debate about the racial implications of the case, with some participants highlighting the racial dynamics between Zimmerman, who identifies as Hispanic, and Martin, a Black teenager. The conversation also touches on the broader societal implications, including fears of unrest following the verdict and concerns about the influence of social media on public perception of justice. Overall, the thread reveals deep divisions in opinions regarding self-defense laws and racial issues in America.
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http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57593459-504083/george-zimmerman-verdict-former-neighborhood-watch-leader-not-guilty-in-death-of-fla-teen-trayvon-martin/

Canada's starting to look better by the day I must say.
 
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The ABC Chief of legal affairs is about to have a stroke he's so appalled by the actions of the defense lawyers. He said he can't wait to find out what the jurors were thinking.

This is truly a miscarriage of justice. Like he said, that someone could stalk a person, start a fight with them and then shoot them because he was afraid of being hit, and then be found innocent of the killing is just unbelievable. Don't try to defend yourself in Florida, the person who attacked you can legally kill you.
 
I can't imagine the kind of riots that are going to ensue because of this absolutely disgusting decision. I feel bad for the kid's parents. I don't get how Florida manages to screw up over and over.
 
Wow, I'm really surprised. But then again, it *is* Florida, after all.
 
Like he said, that someone could stalk a person, start a fight with them and then shoot them because he was afraid of being hit
What happens if you start a fight with somebody and that person starts beating you. Do you have to let them kill you?
 
Am I the only one who thinks Martin was a big city hoodlum who jumped the wrong country boy?


(duck and cover)

old jim
 
leroyjenkens said:
What happens if you start a fight with somebody and that person starts beating you. Do you have to let them kill you?
You can kill them, but then you are guilty of at least manslaughter.
 
jim hardy said:
Am I the only one who thinks Martin was a big city hoodlum who jumped the wrong country boy?


(duck and cover)

old jim
I hope you're just making a really, really bad joke. You realize that Zimmerman was chasing after the kid? If you aren't familiar with the case, you really shouldn't comment.

From the article in the OP

call placed by Zimmerman the night of the Feb. 26, 2012 altercation, in which he tells a non-emergency dispatcher he is following the teen and uses the terms "f--ing punks" and "---holes." Prosecutors attempted to prove that the language shows Zimmerman acted with ill will or spite, elements of the second degree murder charge.
 
  • #10
jim hardy said:
Am I the only one who thinks Martin was a big city hoodlum who jumped the wrong country boy?
Murder is murder imo (speaking in loose terms). The arguments given by both of the sides have made things really hazy for me but the end result is black and white: the 17 year old kid was killed.
 
  • #11
Didn't follow this case at all , all I know is the murderer is a middle-aged white guy and the victim a black guy and that everybody thinks the killer should be convicted (I'm unaware if there's enough information available for the public to have an informed opinion , is there?).It seems that the interest of this case is very racial in nature.

I say who cares about their race , just give him a fair trial and let the justice system operate like they always do , for better or for worst.

The new trend in social medias with people regrouping and putting other people on their own amateurish trial is starting to worry me to be honest.
 
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  • #12
Florida sentencing laws according to Wiki.

Manslaughter Maximum of 15 years in prison; maximum of 30 years in prison if a firearm is used plus a mandatory minimum of 25 years

Aggravated manslaughter of a child Maximum of 30 years in prison; maximum could be enhanced to life in prison if a firearm is used plus a mandatory minimum of 25 years

Third degree murder Maximum of 15 years in prison; maximum of 30 years in prison if a firearm is used plus a mandatory minimum of 25 years

Second degree murder Maximum of life in prison; Minimum of 25 years if a firearm is used, otherwise a minimum of 20.5 years under sentencing guidelines for a person with a clean record.

First degree murder Death penalty or life in prison. Parole in FL has been abolished for all crimes since 1983.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_punishments_for_murder_in_the_United_States

A manslaughter charge has about the same punishment as a second degree murder charge. It will be interesting to hear what the jury has to say.

Edit: They had overcharged Zimmerman with an original charge of first degree murder and they ended up getting nothing.

My wife was a juror on a similar case and that guy walked also, because their was no charge that fit the crime.
 
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  • #13
Zimmerman confronted Trayvon (in a very benign way) because there were recently several burglaries in the neighborhood. Trayvon beat the crap out of him and Zimmerman feared for his life. By the stand your ground law in Florida you can kill someone even if you THINK your life is at risk. Zimmerman killed Trayvon in self defense.
 
  • #14
In related news, Florida justice goes on: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/
 
  • #15
jim hardy said:
Am I the only one who thinks Martin was a big city hoodlum who jumped the wrong country boy?


(duck and cover)

old jim
No, you're not.

The injustice here is the malicious prosecution, outside influences and race baiting. But the jury came to the only conclusion possible: if someone is on top of you, beating you, shooting them is self defense.
 
  • #16
Evo said:
You can kill them, but then you are guilty of at least manslaughter.
I don't think you know what manslaughter is.
 
  • #17
Physics_UG said:
By the stand your ground law in Florida you can kill someone even if you THINK your life is at risk.
You say this like this law isn't ridiculous and barbaric.
 
  • #18
It's a terrible tragedy caused by some self appointed vigilante with a history of violence (Zimmerman has arrests for both domestic violence and assaulting a police officer) chasing an innocent kid. The kid wasn't doing anything illegal, if you're not familiar with what happened, you can read the transcripts of the calls Zimmerman made where police dispatch told him to stop going after the kid and let them handle it. Zimmerman ignored the police warning to back off. The entire thing is Zimmerman's fault.

But in Florida, you only need to be afraid of bodily injury at the time you kill the person you attacked to be considered innocent.
 
  • #19
WannabeNewton said:
Murder is murder imo (speaking in loose terms). The arguments given by both of the sides have made things really hazy for me but the end result is black and white: the 17 year old kid was killed.
Yes, you are speaking loosely. The law isn't.
 
  • #20
Evo said:
It's a terrible tragedy caused by some self appointed vigilante with a history of violence (Zimmerman has arrests for both domestic violence and assaulting a police officer) chasing an innocent kid. The kid wasn't doing anything illegal, if you're not familiar with what happened, you can read the transcripts of the calls Zimmerman made where police dispatch told him to stop going after the kid and let them handle it. Zimmerman ignored the police warning to back off. The entire thing is Zimmerman's fault.

But in Florida, you only need to be afraid of bodily injury at the time you kill the person you attacked to be considered innocent.
All of that is true (though he wasn't just afraid of injury: he was being injured) and the relevant part at the end points to an innocent verdict.
 
  • #21
WannabeNewton said:
You say this like this law isn't ridiculous and barbaric.
FYI, this case was not about the stand your ground law. Not sure where it came from(I think it was the early media sensationalism), but it was not part of the case.
 
  • #22
russ_watters said:
All of that is true (though he wasn't just afraid of injury: he was being injured) and the relevant part at the end points to an innocent verdict.
Yes, according to Florida law, they had to use "reasonable doubt", not knowing all of the details when Zimmerman shot the kid. I did hear the ABC analyst tonight saying that according to Zimmerman's testimony that his description of his position and Martin's it would have been physically impossible for him to get his gun out. But I don't know the details, supposedly this will be gone over in more detail later.
 
  • #23
reenmachine said:
Didn't follow this case at all , all I know is the murderer is a middle-aged white guy...
Zimmerman was 28 at the time and he's half Hispanic and looks and self-identifies as hispanic. It just makes for better race baiting to call him white.
 
  • #24
  • #25
Evo said:
Yes, according to Florida law, they had to use "reasonable doubt", not knowing all of the details when Zimmerman shot the kid. I did hear the ABC analyst tonight saying that according to Zimmerman's testimony that his description of his position and Martin's it would have been physically impossible for him to get his gun out. But I don't know the details, supposedly this will be gone over in more detail later.
Cmon, Evo, we know the details clearly enough from witnesses and forensics: Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him, when Zimmerman shot him.
 
  • #27
What surprises me is that the prosecution cannot appeal the decision reached. I guess, under what grounds could they. Miscarriage of justice, or no fair trial?
 
  • #28
russ_watters said:
Cmon, Evo, we know the details clearly enough from witnesses and forensics: Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him, when Zimmerman shot him.
Not really.

russ_watters said:
How is that relevant?
I was addressing your comment about calling Zimmerman white instead of Hispanic was playing the race card, when actually calling him Hispanic would be worse in the eyes of the black community, IMO.
 
  • #29
WannabeNewton said:
You say this like this law isn't ridiculous and barbaric.

It might be barbaric but it's the law. And in this case Zimmerman was getting the **** beat out of him. That kid was just a little punk. The pics the news media first posted of him were when he was much younger and he looks more innocent in those pics.
 
  • #30
russ_watters said:
Cmon, Evo, we know the details clearly enough from witnesses and forensics: Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him, when Zimmerman shot him.
According to eyewitnesses, as far as they could tell, it was Zimmerman on top of Martin.

Eyewitnesses Describe Zimmerman As Aggressor

http://www.wusa9.com/news/nation-world/article/264082/381/Eyewitnesses-Describe-Zimmerman-As-Aggressor
 
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  • #31
Evo said:
According to eyewitnesses, as far as they could tell, it was Zimmerman on top of Martin.

http://www.wusa9.com/news/nation-world/article/264082/381/Eyewitnesses-Describe-Zimmerman-As-Aggressor

Not all of them. Fact is, all the defense needed to do is establish reasonable doubt, which they did. Any reasonable person can see that.
 
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  • #32
Physics_UG said:
Not all of them. Fact is, all the defense needed to do is establish reasonable doubt, which they did. Any reasonable person can see that.
Zimmerman acted unlawfully, the neighborhood watch (see the video in my link) does not allow the watch person to follow or confront anyone. They are supposed to call police and stay away. Not only did he violate the watch rules, he went against the police when they told him to stop following Martin and let them handle it.
 
  • #33
russ_watters said:
Cmon, Evo, we know the details clearly enough from witnesses and forensics: Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him, when Zimmerman shot him.
Perhaps Martin, who was unarmed, was defending himself the only way he could. It would have been better if he ran.
 
  • #34
I just looked at the picture of both guys and one thing comes to mind , how the **** did Zimmerman let that guy beat him up? The black boy looks like he's 12 years old and weighting 120 pounds in the pictures.

Sorry for the irrelevant comment but it makes me wonder.What kind of guy thinks he's a cop yet can't handle that boy in a fist fight?
 
  • #35
Physics_UG said:
Not all of them. Fact is, all the defense needed to do is establish reasonable doubt, which they did. Any reasonable person can see that.

The forensic evidence clearly established that Martin was shot from below. Zimmerman also had injuries to the back of his head as well as an injury to his nose. When the forensic evidence was introduced, the prosecution abandoned its theory that Zimmerman was on top. There was never any evidence presented as to who started the fight.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/...orge-zimmerman-trial-20130709,0,6005164.story
 
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  • #36
SW VandeCarr said:
The forensic evidence clearly established that Martin was shot from below. Zimmerman also had injuries to the back of his head as well as an injury to his nose. When the forensic evidence was introduced, the prosecution abandoned their theory that Zimmerman was on top. There was never any evidence presented as to who started the fight.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/...orge-zimmerman-trial-20130709,0,6005164.story

yes...exactly.
 
  • #37
I'm kinda scared about the potential riots/protests. I don't live in Florida but still.
 
  • #38
SW VandeCarr said:
The forensic evidence clearly established that Martin was shot from below. Zimmerman also had injuries to the back of his head as well as an injury to his nose. When the forensic evidence was introduced, the prosecution abandoned their theory that Zimmerman was on top. There was never any evidence presented as to who started the fight.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/...orge-zimmerman-trial-20130709,0,6005164.story
It's one person's scenario, I watch enough real life crime stories to know how often "expert witnesses" are proven wrong. It's also said that if things happened the way Zimmerman claimed, it would have been physically impossible for him to get his gun out from where it was positioned.

Guy said Zimmerman could not have reached his gun if Martin was straddling him as described and said Martin must have been withdrawing from the altercation or at least in a less-threatening position. “The defendant didn’t shoot Trayvon Martin because he had to, he shot him because he wanted to. That’s the bottom line,” Guy said.

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/07/12/zimmerman-trial-live-blog-closing-arguments/

Zimmerman was also proven to have lied about Martin grabbing his gun, there was no dna on the gun.

Mark Osterman, Zimmerman’s best friend and the author of a book defending him, testified Tuesday that Zimmerman told him on the night of the shooting that Trayvon briefly grabbed his gun as the two wrestled on the ground. Mr. Osterman said Zimmerman said to him, “somehow I broke his grip on the gun when guy grabbed between the grip and the hammer.

Teenager Trayvon Martin's DNA was nowhere to be found on the gun George Zimmerman used to fatally shoot him, a forensics expert testified Wednesday – a development that may cast doubt on the contention that the 17-year-old tried to grab the gun during a fight with Mr. Zimmerman in a gated community in Sanford, Fla.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justic...DNA-on-George-Zimmerman-gun-expert-says-video
 
  • #41
reenmachine said:
I just looked at the picture of both guys and one thing comes to mind , how the **** did Zimmerman let that guy beat him up? The black boy looks like he's 12 years old and weighting 120 pounds in the pictures.

Sorry for the irrelevant comment but it makes me wonder.What kind of guy thinks he's a cop yet can't handle that boy in a fist fight?

Well Zimmerman's fighting teacher testified he was not very good.
 
  • #42
reenmachine said:
I just looked at the picture of both guys and one thing comes to mind , how the **** did Zimmerman let that guy beat him up? The black boy looks like he's 12 years old and weighting 120 pounds in the pictures.

Sorry for the irrelevant comment but it makes me wonder.What kind of guy thinks he's a cop yet can't handle that boy in a fist fight?

Trayvon Martin is 5' 11'' and zimmerman is 5' 7''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
 
  • #43
Woopydalan said:
Trayvon Martin is 5' 11'' and zimmerman is 5' 7''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
And Zimmerman weighed more and had a loaded gun. According to your link
Zimmerman's height is shown as 5′8″ (1.73 m); and his weight at 200 lb (91 kg) on the Sanford Police Department Offense Report for February 26, 2012, the night of the shooting.
Did you have some kind of point?
 
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  • #44
russ_watters said:
FYI, this case was not about the stand your ground law. Not sure where it came from(I think it was the early media sensationalism), but it was not part of the case.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...n-you-have-no-further-business-with-the-court

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

I fail to see how there is no relation between the stand-your-ground law, and this case.

Also from NPR:
In closing arguments Friday, Zimmerman's defense sought to hammer home its contention that the self-styled neighborhood watch volunteer was defending himself when he fatally shot the unarmed Martin during a scuffle in February 2012 in a gated community.

You yourself recall the information that Trayvon Martin was claimed to be on top of George Zimmerman, beating him, at the time when George Zimmerman shot him. The relation between the stand-your-ground law and this scenario is incredibly overwhelming.

You're also appealing to media sensationalism, but the most coverage that Trayvon Martin's death garnered, for weeks after his demise, was a few paragraphs in his local newspaper. It wasn't until activists had gained enough attention, and had nagged national media so often, that it became a national case. It's a disservice to these people who felt strongly towards this case to presume that outcry is due to the media, when the media was never even involved in the beginning.
 
  • #45
Evo said:
And Zimmerman weighed more and had a loaded gun. According to your link Did you have some kind of point?

Bruce Lee was about 3/4 my weight, at the most, and he could destroy me in a fight.
 
  • #46
Physics_UG said:
Bruce Lee was about 3/4 my weight, at the most, and he could destroy me in a fight.
And this has nothing to do with Martin, he's not an expert in martial arts, hasn't even taken classes in them AFAIK.

Please don't make pointless posts.

Zimmerman got off because of reasonable doubt, it's legal. You may think Zimmerman was right in disobeying his neighborhood watch and the police and causing an unnecessary altercation that ended with the killing of Martin. That's fine, if that's how you feel.

Other people feel that if Zimmerman had obeyed the police and not taken the law into his own hands Martin would still be alive.
 
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  • #47
Evo said:
And this has nothing to do with Martin, he's not an expert in martial arts, hasn't even taken classes in them AFAIK.

Please don't make pointless posts.

My point was just because someone weighs more doesn't make them stronger or more capable in a fight.

Also, the pictures the media posted of Trayvon at first were from when he was 12 years old. They wanted to spark a race war, which is why they posted those pics.
 
  • #49
Rumors that I have not followed the case are , well, inaccurate.

The PR firm of Julison Communications
http://julisoncom.com/we_are.html
was hired early on to create public images of Zimmerman as a racist stalker and Martin as an angelic schoolboy. They did a pretty good job as evidenced by this thread.

Unless you saw Martin's Twitter pages (when they were still on internet) you might believe it.

There's a dark side to this whole story including sworn testimony of Miami Police Department's 'burying' of criminal activity by black school kids .
http://www.scribd.com/doc/135564937/Sergeant-William-Tagle-Internal-Affairs-Investigative-Report

Martin was suspended for having marijuana, burglary tools and jewelry in his backpack. That was in Miami Herald.

Police reports were altered to say it was found in parking lot. Above link has the depositions.

There was a substantial tort at stake against the homeowners' association provided Zimmerman was found guilty, or better yet arrested and not tried. Another 'Quirky Florida Law'.

I will not be surprised if Zimmerman sues a few folks for conspiracy to deprive him of a fair trial.

While I don't believe either of them was an innocent Billy Budd character
another wrong wouldn't make this right.

old jim
 
  • #50
Zimmerman most likely just asked him for ID since he was the 'head' of the neighborhood watch organization and was frustrated because of the crimes being committed in his neighborhood. It is my opinion that Trayvon, at that point, threw Zimmerman on the ground and beat him. Zimmerman also never offered any information about Trayvon's race until the police asked for a description.
 

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