Is Cheating the Answer to Academic Frustration?

[Iyafrady]

My last 4 test grades have been 77,72,59, and 48(all core major classes) i am so freakin pissed off w/ myself and I am having doubts if I am smart enough for college.Anyway today i was feeling bitter towards school and said F it and cheated on my microcontrollers exam.I sat in the back of the class and busted out a cheat sheet i made and some snippets of code.The prof. always reads during exams so he didnt notice.I pretty much had all the answers in front of me so I am expecting a high B or low A.I feel bad for cheating but i just did it out of frustration i guess.The part that pisses me off is that i actually study and read my textbooks and still get bad grades.

 

[qntty]

Just putting time into studying a subject doesn't mean you'll learn it. You probably are studying inefficiently if you can't manage to do well on a test after a lot of studying. Do you do problems after doing the readings? Does studying for a test simply involve reading over your notes? Do you attend lectures (even if you don't learn much from a lecture, professors might hint at what you should focus on for a test)? I highly doubt that you're incapably of getting good grades so don't write it off as "I'm not smart enough."

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I was going to call your professor on my cell phone and tell him what you had done, but the darn thing just died on me. Now I'll have to get a new one.

 

[Astronuc]

My last 4 test grades have been 77,72,59, and 48(all core major classes) i am so freakin pissed off w/ myself and I am having doubts if I am smart enough for college.Anyway today i was feeling bitter towards school and said F it and cheated on my microcontrollers exam.I sat in the back of the class and busted out a cheat sheet i made and some snippets of code.The prof. always reads during exams so he didnt notice.I pretty much had all the answers in front of me so I am expecting a high B or low A.I feel bad for cheating but i just did it out of frustration i guess.The part that pisses me off is that i actually study and read my textbooks and still get bad grades.

Don't repeat this transgression. Go talk to one's professors, and change the way one studies.

 

[Brilliant!]

Did you post this because you're conflictual? If so, I can set is straight for you:

You've single-handedly undermined the system so as to distort the achievement of those around you who worked harder, better, and/or smarter. You've earned what they deserve and you do not.

I'm sure you're school offers free tutoring services. If you're too embarrassed, it's time to get past it as there is no reason to be. I can't see how the shame wouldn't make the embarrassment a more appealing alternative, anyway.

 

[Cyrus]

I just take it like a man and fail. I've got a D or two to prove it. My first semester was a nice wake up.

 

[confinement]

You've single-handedly undermined the system so as to distort the achievement of those around you who worked harder, better, and/or smarter.

Speaking as someone who always made A grades without any work, I think that the system you speak of is a sham and so the ethical implication you are making is empty.

A sham is something false that is purported to be genuine, and this is exactly what the state of our modern education system. The primary goal of institutional education is to assign a ranking to serve as a justification or explanation for why you can only do some jobs and not others. There are many dirty jobs to be done in society, and instead of 'drawing straws' to decide, or deciding based on one's heritage as was done historically, in modern society we use education as a elaborate cover-up for the seemingly necessary business of ranking people.

The 'worked harder, better, smarter' in the post that I quoted is part of making the explanation seem as justified as possible e.g. 'you have to be a minimum wage worker because you got a bad ranking, and you got a bad ranking because other people worked smarter, better, and harder.' I claim that our system has devolved to the point where very often the rankings people get on tests are arbitrary, and do not reflect merit. This is because there is not very much effort put into looking for true merit i.e. evaluating individuals. The true goal of the system is to make it seem as if the rankings are not arbitrary, so that students continue to pay tuition and society continues to function without revolt.

The point is that you cannot undermine that which is already dishonest, since after all it has no foundation that is good. Instead, what cheating does is replace an elaborate and deep system for assigning arbitrary rankings that most people think are based on merit, with a shallow and transparent system that anyone can see is arbitrary. This makes people angry, just like the old heritage / nobility / birthright / caste systems . The insight of modern political leaders is that the populace is significantly more content if they feel that they were in control of their economic class, whereas the reality of limited resources and the great effort required to seek true merit makes this impossible in practice.

 

[Brilliant!]

That's a lot of writing to illustrate a very simple point. My rebuttal:

Then don't participate. It's college; choice is inherent. If you are going to take part in a system voluntarily, then play by the rules. No one should complain about things they subject themselves to.

I applaud your rhetoric, and your ideals. However, you should spend more time delving deeper into the latter, instead of making assumptions.

 

[Gear300]

You shouldn't be too embarrassed about cheating on courses you don't care all too much about and have little passion for (assuming that is the case with this course). A couple of years from now, all that really mattered at the point is that you got through the courses. However, try not to cheat when it comes to something you're really into.

 

[Pengwuino]

You shouldn't be too embarrassed about cheating on courses you don't care all too much about and have little passion for (assuming that is the case with this course). A couple of years from now, all that really mattered at the point is that you got through the courses. However, try not to cheat when it comes to something you're really into.

That's a quite disagreeable thing to say. Imagine if you were going through your courses adn some people outside of your discipline came into your classes and just cheated their ways to 100%s and so on and gave the professor/department the impression that you are lazy or slacking. Add to that how it would feel if the professor graded on a curve. The implications if you extend this into the real world are even worse...

 

[Cyrus]

Speaking as someone who always made A grades without any work, I think that the system you speak of is a sham and so the ethical implication you are making is empty.

A sham is something false that is purported to be genuine, and this is exactly what the state of our modern education system. The primary goal of institutional education is to assign a ranking to serve as a justification or explanation for why you can only do some jobs and not others. There are many dirty jobs to be done in society, and instead of 'drawing straws' to decide, or deciding based on one's heritage as was done historically, in modern society we use education as a elaborate cover-up for the seemingly necessary business of ranking people.

The 'worked harder, better, smarter' in the post that I quoted is part of making the explanation seem as justified as possible e.g. 'you have to be a minimum wage worker because you got a bad ranking, and you got a bad ranking because other people worked smarter, better, and harder.' I claim that our system has devolved to the point where very often the rankings people get on tests are arbitrary, and do not reflect merit. This is because there is not very much effort put into looking for true merit i.e. evaluating individuals. The true goal of the system is to make it seem as if the rankings are not arbitrary, so that students continue to pay tuition and society continues to function without revolt.

The point is that you cannot undermine that which is already dishonest, since after all it has no foundation that is good. Instead, what cheating does is replace an elaborate and deep system for assigning arbitrary rankings that most people think are based on merit, with a shallow and transparent system that anyone can see is arbitrary. This makes people angry, just like the old heritage / nobility / birthright / caste systems . The insight of modern political leaders is that the populace is significantly more content if they feel that they were in control of their economic class, whereas the reality of limited resources and the great effort required to seek true merit makes this impossible in practice.

Note to self: Don't hire you, ... ever.

But in all seriousness, this long tirade is crap. Keep it to yourself next time. Trying to justify someone cheating is a no no.

If you can get A's in your classes without any work, the department of your school sucks. That's your own fault for going there.

 

[Pythagorean]

Speaking as someone who always made A grades without any work, I think that the system you speak of is a sham and so the ethical implication you are making is empty.

A sham is something false that is purported to be genuine, and this is exactly what the state of our modern education system. The primary goal of institutional education is to assign a ranking to serve as a justification or explanation for why you can only do some jobs and not others. There are many dirty jobs to be done in society, and instead of 'drawing straws' to decide, or deciding based on one's heritage as was done historically, in modern society we use education as a elaborate cover-up for the seemingly necessary business of ranking people.

The 'worked harder, better, smarter' in the post that I quoted is part of making the explanation seem as justified as possible e.g. 'you have to be a minimum wage worker because you got a bad ranking, and you got a bad ranking because other people worked smarter, better, and harder.' I claim that our system has devolved to the point where very often the rankings people get on tests are arbitrary, and do not reflect merit. This is because there is not very much effort put into looking for true merit i.e. evaluating individuals. The true goal of the system is to make it seem as if the rankings are not arbitrary, so that students continue to pay tuition and society continues to function without revolt.

The point is that you cannot undermine that which is already dishonest, since after all it has no foundation that is good. Instead, what cheating does is replace an elaborate and deep system for assigning arbitrary rankings that most people think are based on merit, with a shallow and transparent system that anyone can see is arbitrary. This makes people angry, just like the old heritage / nobility / birthright / caste systems . The insight of modern political leaders is that the populace is significantly more content if they feel that they were in control of their economic class, whereas the reality of limited resources and the great effort required to seek true merit makes this impossible in practice.

I don't know, things must be different in Alaska. I remember distinctly in one of my classes, the first time I met a professor (he was teaching the class).

He hired me at the end of the class, even though I got a C in his class (several other students got A's and B's) but he liked my attitude and maturity level and he also liked the way I thought. I've been working for him for about four years now and he's now the chair of the Physics Department.

 

[maze]

My last 4 test grades have been 77,72,59, and 48(all core major classes) i am so freakin pissed off w/ myself and I am having doubts if I am smart enough for college.Anyway today i was feeling bitter towards school and said F it and cheated on my microcontrollers exam.I sat in the back of the class and busted out a cheat sheet i made and some snippets of code.The prof. always reads during exams so he didnt notice.I pretty much had all the answers in front of me so I am expecting a high B or low A.I feel bad for cheating but i just did it out of frustration i guess.The part that pisses me off is that i actually study and read my textbooks and still get bad grades.

If you'd just taken an extra hour and memorized the cheat sheet, then you would've gotten a good score legitimately.

 

[fileen]

I know someone who cheated on tests for a long time. It worked out to get him the marks he wanted, but the thing he forgot was that he was planning a career in his program (biochemistry). He is in some trouble now because he is in his fourth year at a university and required to do a number of research projects and lab classes. These classes require you to apply what you have LEARNED not pretended to learn. Cheating will get the marks you need to move on, but perhaps you shouldn't move on if you don't really know what youre doing. I did really poorly my first year, and I realized its not a matter of not being smart or not knowing the material, I just didnt know how to write multiple choice exams. I went to a few seminars on campus and I do rather well now. You sound like you need to get a tutor or speak to your professors.

 

[confinement]

Note to self: Don't hire you, ... ever.

Why not? Is it because you don't share my opinion on this matter? What is it, specifically, about my opinion that tells you I would be unfit for employment ? I feel that all I am doing is offering an alternative to a belief that you take for granted. I don't advocate cheating.

But in all seriousness, this long tirade is crap.

First of all, if you thought that my post was 'long' then I wonder what you think about books ? They must seem really long to you.

As for you calling my thoughts 'crap', since I know you don't mean this literally I translate it as saying "I didn't like it." But there are many possible reasons for this response, the most likely of which (based on my past experiences with others) is that you are unwilling to examine your long-held beliefs in a critical way.

Keep it to yourself next time.

This indicates that you found my writing to be actively harmful, since you wish that I had not inflicted it upon you.

Trying to justify someone cheating is a no no.

I am no more justifying someone's cheating then you are justifying your own honesty. If you read my post it is primarily an indictment of the education system, and my point is that the education system cannot be undermined when it is already dishonest, at most it can be exposed.

If you can get A's in your classes without any work, the department of your school sucks. That's your own fault for going there.

I read this sentence as an attempt to protect your world-view: if I (confinement) was able to get all A grades at a top 20 school without doing any work (or, in some cases, without going to lecture at all) then some of my critiques of the university system would be true. As a secondary line of defense you could begrudingly admit that if I made A grades at a top 20 university without doing any work, then it must be because I am intelligent, and then as a bonus you could even fault me for being lazy and taking an opportunity away from someone who would have worked harder than myself. But what if I am not exceptionally intelligent (a possibility which I suspect you would entertain) ? Then we are forced to admit that grades can be arbitrary, not based on merit.

If you'd just taken an extra hour and memorized the cheat sheet, then you would've gotten a good score legitimately.

In other words, the rest of the world is unaffected, either way.

 

[Cyrus]

Why not? Is it because you don't share my opinion on this matter? What is it, specifically, about my opinion that tells you I would be unfit for employment ? I feel that all I am doing is offering an alternative to a belief that you take for granted. I don't advocate cheating.



First of all, if you thought that my post was 'long' then I wonder what you think about books ? They must seem really long to you.

As for you calling my thoughts 'crap', since I know you don't mean this literally I translate it as saying "I didn't like it." But there are many possible reasons for this response, the most likely of which (based on my past experiences with others) is that you are unwilling to examine your long-held beliefs in a critical way.



This indicates that you found my writing to be actively harmful, since you wish that I had not inflicted it upon you.



I am no more justifying someone's cheating then you are justifying your own honesty. If you read my post it is primarily an indictment of the education system, and my point is that the education system cannot be undermined when it is already dishonest, at most it can be exposed.



I read this sentence as an attempt to protect your world-view: if I (confinement) was able to get all A grades at a top 20 school without doing any work (or, in some cases, without going to lecture at all) then some of my critiques of the university system would be true. As a secondary line of defense you could begrudingly admit that if I made A grades at a top 20 university without doing any work, then it must be because I am intelligent, and then as a bonus you could even fault me for being lazy and taking an opportunity away from someone who would have worked harder than myself. But what if I am not exceptionally intelligent (a possibility which I suspect you would entertain) ? Then we are forced to admit that grades can be arbitrary, not based on merit.



In other words, the rest of the world is unaffected, either way.

I go to a top 10 school. You wouldn't last 5 minutes without doing work.

I didn't say you couldn't pass the tests if you were that smart. You could. In fact I told a story in a past thread about a guy in a class I had one time that got the highest grades on all his exams but never did any homework: so the professor flunked him.

 

[Ghost803]

I unno, I thought grades didn't matter much as long as you were above a B. And that it was more about who you meet and know in college.

 

[rootX]

I feel bad for cheating but i just did it out of frustration i guess.

Then, it's very likely that you will cheat again unless you accept the responsibility and the consequences.

 

[humanino]

if I (confinement) was able to get all A grades at a top 20 school without doing any work (or, in some cases, without going to lecture at all) then some of my critiques of the university system would be true. As a secondary line of defense you could begrudingly admit that if I made A grades at a top 20 university without doing any work, then it must be because I am intelligent, and then as a bonus you could even fault me for being lazy and taking an opportunity away from someone who would have worked harder than myself. But what if I am not exceptionally intelligent (a possibility which I suspect you would entertain) ? Then we are forced to admit that grades can be arbitrary, not based on merit.

Can you cut the bullcrap ? If you get straight As without work, then your University is bad, it is as simple and there is nothing else.

I went to a good University. It has produced several Nobel prizes and Field medalists. We were given exams just impossible to complete entirely. The "A" grade was defined by the student who completed the most of the exam. By no means you can in such an environment be the best in maths, in physics, in chemistry, in engineering, in software design, etc all the same week. It is simply impossible. Please take time to think about it : you are spending one week to study a very specific mathematical technics to solve such problem. You train for it by doing as many examples as possible, as fast as possible. Later on in your life you become a world-known respected mathematician, and you are not able anymore to solve those specific problems as fast as you were able at the time when you passed the exam at school. Yet, at this time, you were also being taught all those other things. Man, if you were getting straight As everywhere in this school, let me tell you, you would be far more intelligent than all scientists together living on Earth. Witten would be dumb to you. Nobody ever got all straight As there. Whatever you claim, this is so obviously bullcrap... If you are convinced and honest in your claims, please leave this bad University, you are loosing you time and it is of no use for you.

 

[confinement]

Humanino, I understand that you do not believe my story, since I am not surprised that it contradicts your experience.

If you get straight As without work, then your University is bad, it is as simple and there is nothing else.

It sounds like I won't be able to change your mind, and that you hold this belief with absolute certainty.

We were given exams just impossible to complete entirely.

Did they come with an impossibility proof, or did it just seem that way to you at the time?

By no means you can in such an environment be the best in maths, in physics, in chemistry, in engineering, in software design, etc all the same week.

I never took a list of courses like that all at once, and it is doubtful that I could do so without reading the textbooks ahead of time.

It is simply impossible.

I won't accept this claim until I see an impossibility proof, otherwise I will only grant that it discords with your experience.

Please take time to think about it : you are spending one week to study a very specific mathematical technics to solve such problem. You train for it by doing as many examples as possible, as fast as possible.

Hmm, I always went for quality over quantity, which is why practicing examples actually decreased my interest, energy, and motivation, since I can remember the techniques perfectly well without them.

Man, if you were getting straight As everywhere in this school, let me tell you, you would be far more intelligent than all scientists together living on Earth. Witten would be dumb to you.

I disagree, there is a big difference between the trivial, fully digested material we serve to undergraduates and the raw, unprocessed material that is on the fringes of research. I have special skills for processing the former that do not apply to the latter. As soon as I entered the real world of research, I saw how different it was from university, and this is part of why I find university education to be dishonest; at least in physics.

Nobody ever got all straight As there. Whatever you claim, this is so obviously bullcrap...

I am guessing that you went to a private school, while mine was public, and I will grant that the level of competition with other students sounds more intense at your school then it was at mine. Still, I wish I could spend my entire life going around to debunk the kind of impossibility claims that you are making; alas, for me it would be much like going back and dominating a class of 6th graders, which would prove nothing.

 

[FrancisZ]

Well, the mistake I made as an undergraduate student was simply that I showed up for class all of the time prepared for someone to "pour" their knowledge into me. Consequently, I was seriously disappointed a lot; and later got depressed. YOU can't get yourself depressed over it. Happiness helps you succeed.

Adjust to the circumstances by accepting the fact that many science professors just do not want to know you or help you.


Don't make my mistake: sometimes it's just better to hang out in the library and read your textbook on you own--you'll learn a lot more than merely listening to a lecture.

 

[Cyrus]

I disagree, there is a big difference between the trivial, fully digested material we serve to undergraduates and the raw, unprocessed material that is on the fringes of research. I have special skills for processing the former that do not apply to the latter. As soon as I entered the real world of research, I saw how different it was from university, and this is part of why I find university education to be dishonest; at least in physics.

Could it possibly be that you didn't get a good education in undergraduate physics?

 

[humanino]

This school is located in Europe, and I far as I can tell, several other continents have much better schools than available in the US. Russian schools for instance are often more challenging.

Look it's simple. The teacher knows very well how many minutes at least it will take to simply write down the solutions to an exam, assuming the shortest possible answer. The questions are so many that within the assignment time (most usually 4h) it is impossible to copy all the solutions. It would involve several hundred pages. Seriously. As a consequence, it is not enough to be able to answer the questions. You must also answer faster than everybody else. The best grade defines "perfection" for the specific test. And it is the same story in all disciplines. You do not believe there are good schools out there, too bad for you. A typical 4h test results typically in 30 or 50 written pages of equations and text. Some exams last 8h, the longest exams (I know) last 10h.

The school I attended is not private, it is public. But again, it is not in the US.

 

[confinement]

Could it possibly be that you didn't get a good education in undergraduate physics?

Predictable, as always, but since you already complain about the length of my postings I necessarily cannot preemptively diffuse all of your quips. But since you insist...

The quote I was responding to compares undergraduate physics with the kind of physics that Ed Witten does. The chasm between these levels of endeavor includes an understanding of topology, geometry, algebra, and analysis that goes radically far beyond the knowledge of a typical PhD in particle physics (i.e. these folks tend to know about Wilson loops, but not about holonomies on principal bundles) and beyond the level of a typical PhD in mathematics (not beyond in terms of sophistication, but a large amount of additional content in the form of physical facts and the training that one needs to translate these into mathematical language).

It is impossible to explain my statement to someone who does not have firsthand experience with the gap that I describe. Here is an example of a book that fills part of the gap:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0817643788/?tag=pfamazon01-20

if you are at all familiar with graduate level physics then you can appreciate (1) the central importance of the notions in this text for the forefront development of theoretical physics beyond the 1970s and (2) the extent to which the book is incomprehensible given only the knowledge that one learns in (graduate) school. Just because someone found the treatment of vector spaces to be trivial as an undergrad, does not mean that they will find sheaf cohomolgy similarly so.

Edit:

The school I attended is not private, it is public. But again, it is not in the US.

Ahh, in that case I fully concede to you. All of my criticisms are directed at US schools, while from what I can tell top schools outside the US (in europe and asia) have done a much better job in maintaining difficult standards of the past. I don't for one second believe I could waltz through a non-US school, since I have interacted with many exchange students and found them heads and shoulders above my former classmates. Forgive me for being so US-centric in my comments; I really should travel to europe soon before the US atrophies my brain completely!

P.S. In graduate school I had a Russian prof who always looked at us as if to say "I can't believe you are all such idiots." Understandably, however, he lowered his standards just like everyone else when it came to grading.

 

[humanino]

i.e. these folks tend to know about Wilson loops, but not about holonomies on principal bundles

Your arrogance is amazing, and contrasts with the humility mostly found in superiorly intelligent beings (like say, for instance, Witten...)

I don't find this fun anymore. Why should I care ? I know what I went through, the privilege I had to study in this environment. I don't need to go back and try to explain why we have difficulties to discuss here. The only thing I want to make clear for everybody, is that contrary to your claims, there are good schools where people who (unlike you) have proven significant achievements in Science, awarded by the most prestigious medals and prizes, can find stimulating environments. Apparently you were bright among the dulls, I prefer to shine mildly among the bests.

 

[Cyrus]

I have no idea what that long pointless post was for. Why do I care about particle physics? I took issue with your statement:

Speaking as someone who always made A grades without any work, I think that the system you speak of is a sham and so the ethical implication you are making is empty.

A sham is something false that is purported to be genuine, and this is exactly what the state of our modern education system.

Please speak only for yourself and the school you went to. I'm an engineer, not a physicist. I just told you that you cannot pass your classes by not doing any work. They will bounce your as$ out of the department.

 

[Pythagorean]

P.S. In graduate school I had a Russian prof who always looked at us as if to say "I can't believe you are all such idiots." Understandably, however, he lowered his standards just like everyone else when it came to grading.

I've had two Russian teachers like that. One of them was older and you could smell alcohol on his breath. He was always grumpy and whenever we asked him to clarify something he'd just say "it is seemple!" and move one to the next subject.

The other one was young and cocky and treated us like idiots, but he also actually made sure we understood the concepts (in his condescending way). He always cracked me up, I miss his teaching style to be honest.

On another note, the Russian National Anthem is possibly the most beautiful in terms of melody and Putin is a badass.

 

[confinement]

Humanino, I apologize to you for the comments I made from my limited perspective. Apparently my disappointment in my own education has made me very bitter, and I regret projecting my thoughts on this matter into the physics forums. All I can say to students who might be reading this is that it is better to follow Humanino's advice then mine, I tried but could not find a place like the one he described.

I really should get out of GD, where most of you find my opinions and manner unpleasant, and go back to the main forums for answering questions that students have about mainstream science. As wacky as my social ideas may be, in physics I find it easy to stick with firmly established facts and so I hope that our future dealings on the forums (you too Cyrus) will be more normal.

 

[Pythagorean]

Humanino, I apologize to you for the comments I made from my limited perspective. Apparently my disappointment in my own education has made me very bitter, and I regret projecting my thoughts on this matter into the physics forums. All I can say to students who might be reading this is that it is better to follow Humanino's advice then mine, I tried but could not find a place like the one he described.

It doesn't really matter though, you can't blame your education system in whole. They put the materials and the basic ideas out there, you study it.

You have the internet and nearly every library in the nation at your fingertips, your school is just a guide.

 

[Cyrus]

Humanino, I apologize to you for the comments I made from my limited perspective. Apparently my disappointment in my own education has made me very bitter, and I regret projecting my thoughts on this matter into the physics forums. All I can say to students who might be reading this is that it is better to follow Humanino's advice then mine, I tried but could not find a place like the one he described.

I really should get out of GD, where most of you find my opinions and manner unpleasant, and go back to the main forums for answering questions that students have about mainstream science. As wacky as my social ideas may be, in physics I find it easy to stick with firmly established facts and so I hope that our future dealings on the forums (you too Cyrus) will be more normal.

I can completely understand your feelings given the situation of your education. But I would reserve myself from making the sweeping statement about all schools in the us system being faulty due simply to one biased experience you had. That was my gripe.

 

[confinement]

It doesn't really matter though, you can't blame your education system in whole. They put the materials and the basic ideas out there, you study it.

You have the internet and nearly every library in the nation at your fingertips, your school is just a guide.

I totally agree, just to clarify. In fact, this was a great source of my frustration: my huge tuition bills didn't accord with the fact that all of my learning happened in the library, on my own. This is why I formed the opinion that the purpose of the institution that I was at was to collect tens of thousands of dollars per year in exchange for a ranking. The idea that all of that tuition money was paying for the classes to teach me didn't make sense to me because learning at the library was an order of magnitude more efficient than going to class and doing the homework, for me. The absence of bright classmates (like the ones Humanino describes) did not stop me from learning the curriculum and beyond, it's just that I am sure they would have pushed me to learn even more than I did. The learning happens in the library, and a significant part of the motivation comes from within, but the motivation that it takes to really work (as I am sure Humanino and Cyrus did) is something I could have gotten from the competition with classmates that I never got to experience.

Reflecting on the main topic of this thread, cheating would also destroy (in a swift and crude manner) this kind of ideal competition that drives students to work hard and become better people.

I can completely understand your feelings given the situation of your education. But I would reserve myself from making the sweeping statement about all schools in the us system being faulty due simply to one biased experience you had. That was my gripe.

Yes, both my undergraduate and graduate schools were on the west coast, and I extrapolated knowledge of MIT, etc undergraduate program from my grad school classmates that attended there as undergrads (most likely mistaken inferences due to small sample size, but still a common thing to do).

 

[Choppy]

My last 4 test grades have been 77,72,59, and 48(all core major classes) i am so freakin pissed off w/ myself and I am having doubts if I am smart enough for college.Anyway today i was feeling bitter towards school and said F it and cheated on my microcontrollers exam.I sat in the back of the class and busted out a cheat sheet i made and some snippets of code.The prof. always reads during exams so he didnt notice.I pretty much had all the answers in front of me so I am expecting a high B or low A.I feel bad for cheating but i just did it out of frustration i guess.The part that pisses me off is that i actually study and read my textbooks and still get bad grades.

My question is this - are you trying to excuse or somehow justify your actions by posting this here? You cheated on an exam. This is a blatant case of academic dishonesty.

(1) If you get caught doing this, even once, you can pretty much kiss graduate school goodbye.

(2) Even if you never get caught, cheating will eventually catch up to you because you don't know the material and eventually you will be placed in a situation where you can't hide your ignorance.

 

[Cyrus]

I totally agree, just to clarify. In fact, this was a great source of my frustration: my huge tuition bills didn't accord with the fact that all of my learning happened in the library, on my own. This is why I formed the opinion that the purpose of the institution that I was at was to collect tens of thousands of dollars per year in exchange for a ranking. The idea that all of that tuition money was paying for the classes to teach me didn't make sense to me because learning at the library was an order of magnitude more efficient than going to class and doing the homework, for me. The absence of bright classmates (like the ones Humanino describes) did not stop me from learning the curriculum and beyond, it's just that I am sure they would have pushed me to learn even more than I did. The learning happens in the library, and a significant part of the motivation comes from within, but the motivation that it takes to really work (as I am sure Humanino and Cyrus did) is something I could have gotten from the competition with classmates that I never got to experience.

I would certainly agree with you in terms of there being a major lack of motivation in most undergrads. I don't see too many of them with real passion for what they are doing. Some just want a piece of paper to get a good paying job. A few really want to learn the material. But in all cases (at my school, I can't talk for others), you do have to work to get a grade. There are many many projects and you would *always* see your classmates in the computer labs well into 2-3am, every day, for weeks sometimes. I have found grad school to be a mix of this though. There are some who kind of sort of care, and there are others who know a good wealth of information. But its definitely weighted more heavily to those that care.

Reflecting on the main topic of this thread, cheating would also destroy (in a swift and crude manner) this kind of ideal competition that drives students to work hard and become better people.

I fully agree with that.

Yes, both my undergraduate and graduate schools were on the west coast, and I extrapolated knowledge of MIT, etc undergraduate program from my grad school classmates that attended there as undergrads (most likely mistaken inferences due to small sample size, but still a common thing to do).

I honestly don't believe anyone could go to MIT and not do work and get an A.

 

[cragar]

so you can make a cheat sheet and get a good grade , so why can't you make that sheet the night before and memorize it .

 

[Cyrus]

Memorizing a cheat sheet is not a method of learning. You will forget everything on that sheet the moment you hand in your test. Thats simply short term memory. You should focus on understand the concepts of what you are learning.

I personally think all tests should be open book open notes. There's a reason why we have books. I've always enjoyed open book exams, and thankfully my course this semester is that way.

 

[cragar]

true cyrus, i was just surprised he says he studies and still gets bad grades but yet when he makes the cheat sheet he does better so why is his studying not getting him a descent grade on the test but yet the cheat sheet does.

 

[FrancisZ]

I've had two Russian teachers like that. One of them was older and you could smell alcohol on his breath. He was always grumpy and whenever we asked him to clarify something he'd just say "it is seemple!" and move one to the next subject.

The other one was young and cocky and treated us like idiots, but he also actually made sure we understood the concepts (in his condescending way). He always cracked me up, I miss his teaching style to be honest.

Ditto. I think it just might be a culture clash though.

All three of my Russia-born Professors were very intelligent; and I respected them for that. Two were very insensitive however.

One of those two, the lady: if you asked her a question, she'd insult you as a response. Funniest thing ever said by a Russian Professor using English though: "Guys, you need to FOCUS on the MATRICES."

With accents (Siberian or otherwise), it always comes out as "Guys...you need to Fah - cus on the Mat-tress-es!"Such intelligent, well-mannered people; and I'm such an ***! But I couldn't help laughing.

No wonder they hated me.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I find it curious how schools in the US seem to favour multiple choice style questions, yet the UK does not.

Personally I hate multiple choice questions, I have no idea why (its quite an irrational hatred) I just find them very tedious.

 

[Cyrus]

Multiple choise? Who gives a multiple choice exam in a engineering/physics course? I've never had one.

 

[rootX]

Personally I hate multiple choice questions, I have no idea why (its quite an irrational hatred) I just find them very tedious.

I only get them in my economics exams.

I hate them because sometimes questions are too vague unlike my engineering exam questions. But if you work hard, nothing is bad/tedious ...

 

[xxChrisxx]

Multiple choise? Who gives a multiple choice exam in a engineering/physics course? I've never had one.

Well I don't know the ins and outs of specific courses, I just meant the general trend of exam style (i'll admit I know 1/10 of sod all about the US system). I suppose it does depend on the subject.

I've only ever had 1 in mech eng, that was on manufacturing processes and it was a quarter of the exam. I kind of agree with open book exams though, you'd never be expected to learn any formula in the workplace.

 

[Cyrus]

I kind of agree with open book exams though, you'd never be expected to learn any formula in the workplace.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Maybe open book is the wrong way to phrase it.

When you are given a problem in an exam without a data/formula sheet requiring you to memorize things that in reality you'd simply look up in a book. Obviously this does not include fundamental formulae that everyone taking the exam should know anyway.

 

[Cyrus]

Actually, I meant the second part of the sentence, not the first.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Ah, well it kind of ties in with the first sentence. I didnt mean 'any' formula in the second. What I meant was, exams that force you to learn pages of quite specific data/facts/formula from a book, when in reality if you were working on a problem you would have the book next to you.

I didnt mean to say that you don't have to remember anything, just that you would be expected to know exactly how to use the formula in the books. My issue with this is that I have a fairly poor memory in that it takes me forever to commit things, so I find 'memory test' style exams to be quite unfair.

My missus loves them, as she can read a page of stuff once and remember it pretty much straight off.

 

[franznietzsche]

I didnt mean to say that you don't have to remember anything, just that you would be expected to know exactly how to use the formula in the books. My issue with this is that I have a fairly poor memory in that it takes me forever to commit things, so I find 'memory test' style exams to be quite unfair.

This is a silly sort of statement. Of course you can look up formula in books when you're working--that doesn't mean you should have to.

Should you fail the exam for poor memory if you know how to use the material after referencing the formulae? Maybe not. But you definitely shouldn't get as good a grade as someone who can do all of it without using a reference material. The latter person simply knows the material better. They will be able to solve problems more quickly and efficiently, and likely be able to connect related ideas more quickly because they remember them better. Fair or not, that is a fact.

 

[xxChrisxx]

This is a silly sort of statement. Of course you can look up formula in books when you're working--that doesn't mean you should have to.

Should you fail the exam for poor memory if you know how to use the material after referencing the formulae? Maybe not. But you definitely shouldn't get as good a grade as someone who can do all of it without using a reference material. The latter person simply knows the material better. They will be able to solve problems more quickly and efficiently, and likely be able to connect related ideas more quickly because they remember them better. Fair or not, that is a fact.

How on Earth is that a silly statement. The idea of an examination is to gain an indication as to how well you've understood the course material.

A memory test is utterly useless at gauging that. I can give a non engineer with a good memory several pages of stuff to memorise, they don't have to understand it or know how to use it but so long as they can regurgitate it onto the page in some sort of coherent fason they will get a decent grade. Memory exams have never been an issue for me, as I've always known I've had a crap memory and have adjusted the way I learn accordingly. It takes more time but I get the job done.

My point is that althouh I have a better understanding of the concepts of what's going on than someone else, in some (thankfully memeory test exams are unfavoured my most of the lecturers) exams they do better than I simply because they have a better memory. Another thing I've noticed is that these people can hardly ever derive a formula from first principles. It shows that they only have a superficial understanding and this is precisely what a memory test examines. You press them on the subject matter and they don't know ****.

This is why I love 'show that' questions. If you can derive the formula you get extra marks. If you can't then the people who don't have a deep understanding are not totally screwed.

I can give an analogy to what I mean (it is a more extreme case). You can teach someone to operate FEA software without them having any knowledge of what the program is acutally doing. Hell they don't even need to know what stresses or strains are so long as they have remembered a flowchart on how to operate it.

 

[Mgt3]

Can you cut the bullcrap ? If you get straight As without work, then your University is bad, it is as simple and there is nothing else.

Let's think this through rationally. Everyone has a different idea of what "work" is. For some people, work just barely being able to read through the course material. For others, it's doing practice exercises after class and the readings. Some people do practice exercises, but they do them properly and don't consider these problems "work". A highly intelligent person who completes their assignments and practice problems without too much difficulty will not feel like they have done "work" whereas another student in the same class will be pulling their hair out from the amount of difficulty the class is giving them. They won't be able to make it through the "work". Work is relative. If you love what you're doing, or, if it comes naturally, you won't be doing work. There are indeed straight A students in the sciences. These people are few and far between, but they exist.

The person who cheated might be having a hard time studying. They might be very frustrated because they haven't figured out a way to study efficiently and didn't want the record to reflect failure from an extensive amount of effort put into their courses. Such a person is under psychological duress. They aren't trying to "cheat" all of those "hardworking, more honest students". This doesn't justify cheating, although it gives you a little bit of perspective on how a person could do so without mens rea.

 

[xxChrisxx]

The person who cheated might be having a hard time studying. They might be very frustrated because they haven't figured out a way to study efficiently and didn't want the record to reflect failure from an extensive amount of effort put into their courses. Such a person is under psychological duress. They aren't trying to "cheat" all of those "hardworking, more honest students". This doesn't justify cheating, although it gives you a little bit of perspective on how a person could do so without mens rea.

I agree, all the times I've considerd cheating have been becuase I was burnt out on trying to learn the materal, and a fail would not fair for the time invested. I've never acutally gone through with it and as such have failed a few modules (I have a huge sense of guilt).

After finding my weakness (my memory) I adjusted how I learned and was never felt compelled to consider cheating again. I also don't really ever get annoyed at bad marks any more becuase I know that I've done my best, and that's all I can give.

Bottom line for the OP: The guilt you feel by cheating will only get worse if you do it again. You can also be expelled from some Universities depending on how severe the infraction. Its most likely you haven't found the best way to study for you yet, try new ways.

If you really have tried everything; doing badly in something is nothing to be ashamed of, so long as you gave it everything you have. There are other subjects and areas out there, no one is suited to absolutely everything.

 

[Mgt3]

I agree, all the times I've considerd cheating have been becuase I was burnt out on trying to learn the materal, and a fail would not fair for the time invested. I've never acutally gone through with it and as such have failed a few modules (I have a huge sense of guilt).

After finding my weakness (my memory) I adjusted how I learned and was never felt compelled to consider cheating again. I also don't really ever get annoyed at bad marks any more becuase I know that I've done my best, and that's all I can give.

Bottom line for the OP: The guilt you feel by cheating will only get worse if you do it again. You can also be expelled from some Universities depending on how severe the infraction. Its most likely you haven't found the best way to study for you yet, try new ways.

If you really have tried everything; doing badly in something is nothing to be ashamed of, so long as you gave it everything you have. There are other subjects and areas out there, no one is suited to absolutely everything.

I agree. We shouldn't judge the original poster. (What if he's paying for school out of pocket and can't afford to fail?) The original poster should know that there are many here who are willing to help him with his questions. The key to preparation is doing it well in advance. Don't wait until the last week because it's too late by then. You can't get away with cheating again and again; it's like speeding with a radar detector eventually you're going to get caught.