Is Chi an Actual Force in Our Bodies and Surroundings?

[gnurf]

No, most westerners have been lied to/confused. Accupuncture targets what's known as "pressure points" I have no idea what "kind" of pressure that would be but the LITERAL and ACTUAL meaning of "chi" according to my grandfather (who was a doctor in China that knows chinese medicine and acupuncture) means gas.

The problem seems to be that these "pressure" points, or whatever you want to call them, are no different from non-"pressure" points. I.e., whatever it is that the acupuncture needles are supposed to do, it doesn't matter where you stick them. This is, as far as I know, what every well-conducted study shows, and the only reasonable conclusion seems to be that the points in question do not exist.

Note that I'm note saying that poking people with needles has no effect (it obviously has -- it hurts among other things), but explaining any felt effect by invoking the concept of "chi" seems to be futile.

 

[qedprigmosyno]

This is, as far as I know, what every well-conducted study shows, and the only reasonable conclusion seems to be that the points in question do not exist.

Note that I'm note saying that poking people with needles has no effect (it obviously has -- it hurts among other things), but explaining any felt effect by invoking the concept of "chi" seems to be futile.

Well I have no experience further beyond the concept of chi besides oral knowledge. However, accupunturists believe that not all points are equal. Certain locations for the needle will stimulate the body in another area. How this is conceived is beyond western logic; possibly a result of experimentation. Also, perhaps the reason why the concept of the effects of chi has become a futile effort is because we attempt to layer a recent comprehension of biology over the core of context for which Chi was developed.

 

[bobquantum]

Chi is probably a force that can be defined by the unified field theory. That is, if it is a force. Yes, I am a skeptic.

 

[D.Schweitzer]

I'll start by saying that I don't know, one way or another, wheather Chi, Ki, Qi or any other force is real. What I do know that the laws of physics, as they stand today, are WRONG. I'm not saying that I know the right ones or that anyone does but that if you look at our history, as we continue to learn, we learn that everything we used to "KNOW" has been wrong. I am also not saying that everything about our physics is wrong but chances are, in a hundred years or so, our the defenitions we have given it will have completely changed.

In saying that, the human as a single and a spieces is a force with an amazing power. We have barely begun to understand what we are capable of and as we evolve the possibilities continue to compound. In the end who knows what we are capable of. All I know is that it will be an amazing ride!

Dan

 

[ZapperZ]

I'll start by saying that I don't know, one way or another, wheather Chi, Ki, Qi or any other force is real. What I do know that the laws of physics, as they stand today, are WRONG. I'm not saying that I know the right ones or that anyone does but that if you look at our history, as we continue to learn, we learn that everything we used to "KNOW" has been wrong. I am also not saying that everything about our physics is wrong but chances are, in a hundred years or so, our the defenitions we have given it will have completely changed.

In saying that, the human as a single and a spieces is a force with an amazing power. We have barely begun to understand what we are capable of and as we evolve the possibilities continue to compound. In the end who knows what we are capable of. All I know is that it will be an amazing ride!

Dan

Maybe you need to learn the history a little bit more.

While there are wrong ideas, there are also ideas that are correct within certain boundary of applicability! Newton's Laws are not wrong. If it is, then you should run out of your house immediately. Quantum Mechanics is also not wrong. If it is, you should never rely your life or the lives of your loved ones on any modern electronics (meaning, don't drive, don't fly, and don't do anything else). History has shown that these concepts have limits, not that they are wrong!

In fact, if you come up with a new theory, and in the limit where Newton Laws work, if they don't converge to the same Newtonian description, then there's something wrong with that new theory. In special relativity, we get back the same Newtonian equations in the limit of v<<c. If this doesn't work, SR would be in deep doo doo!

Zz.

 

[gnurf]

I'll start by saying that I don't know, one way or another, wheather Chi, Ki, Qi or any other force is real.

Would you continue by saying that you also don't know whether or not unicorns, elves and fairies are real? By which method or criteria do you distinguish between those ideas that you consider to be "real" and those you consider "not real"?

What I do know that the laws of physics, as they stand today, are WRONG.

Great. Which laws in particular? And please show your work.

I'm not saying that I know the right ones or that anyone does but that if you look at our history, as we continue to learn, we learn that everything we used to "KNOW" has been wrong.

Well, surely then the idea of flowing "chi" must be wrong? Or do you only apply that logic to support your own preconceived ideas about how you wish the universe works?

I am also not saying that everything about our physics is wrong but chances are, in a hundred years or so, our the defenitions we have given it will have completely changed.

Yes, in stark contrast to the ancient and unchanged idea of "chi", science constantly changes and evolves when faced with new evidence -- which, in the case of "chi", there is none.

 

[imiyakawa]

Yet another anecdote:

I now think that CHI is real.

I was doing my usual kung fu training and my teacher decided to show me some elementary QiGong exercises (from the bagua system). Within 30 seconds, I had to stop the exercises as I was hallucinating (I had to stop them before I did the exercises to "bring the chi back down my font"). THe hallucinations were similar to those reported by marijuana users or those on morphine - it's like there was a massive light on and everything was 'breathing'.

These exercises were not more strenuous than those that preeeded it.

This could be the result of:
- Chi getting stuck in my head as my teacher suggested
- Some kind of brain seizure or a lack of oxygen.

My teacher also says that once you are proficient at QiGong, it feels like fire moving around your meridians (or the supposed chi-paths).

 

[imiyakawa]

which, in the case of "chi", there is none.

This is actually a misleading statement as its assumption is that there has been scientific inquiry and a subsequent search for verifyable evidence into chi, which there has not been.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Yet another anecdote:

I now think that CHI is real.

I was doing my usual kung fu training and my teacher decided to show me some elementary QiGong exercises (from the bagua system). Within 30 seconds, I had to stop the exercises as I was hallucinating (I had to stop them before I did the exercises to "bring the chi back down my font"). THe hallucinations were similar to those reported by marijuana users or those on morphine - it's like there was a massive light on and everything was 'breathing'.

These exercises were not more strenuous than those that preeeded it.

This could be the result of:
- Chi getting stuck in my head as my teacher suggested
- Some kind of brain seizure or a lack of oxygen.

My teacher also says that once you are proficient at QiGong, it feels like fire moving around your meridians (or the supposed chi-paths).

Hypoxia (and internal production of Atropine) and suggestability.

 

[Proton Soup]

Hypoxia (and internal production of Atropine)

what?!

 

[Frame Dragger]

what?!

Did I stutter? The kind of hallucinations he described are typical of of people suffering from low blood oxygen saturation, people "near death" (hypoxia again, abliet more extreme), and suggestablity: The expectation that something is going to happen.

Psychosomatic conditions can be severe, so it is it any wonder you can percieve a feeling of "warmth" or see some lights? Hell, you could just be a in a posture that constricts breathing, and makes you dizzy.

If you want me to believe in Chi, perform a scientific test of the claims made by "practicitioners". One of the classics, is the Reiki practioner who claims to "feel" energy of other people. Ok, says the skeptic, does it matter if I wear clothes? No, says the practioner. Does it matter of you're looking at me? No says the practioner, I FEEL your Ki. Ok, says the skeptic, then you stand behind this opaque scrim; I'll be behind it, or not, and in various parts of it. Please use your ability to sense energy to point to where I am.

This, is a real challenge, and there is a cash reward for it I believe. This far, no takers. What a shock.

Apply logic accordingly to Chi, Ki, Reiki, Spirit, Aura, Etc... Etc...

 

[Proton Soup]

Did I stutter? The kind of hallucinations he described are typical of of people suffering from low blood oxygen saturation, people "near death" (hypoxia again, abliet more extreme), and suggestablity: The expectation that something is going to happen.

Psychosomatic conditions can be severe, so it is it any wonder you can percieve a feeling of "warmth" or see some lights? Hell, you could just be a in a posture that constricts breathing, and makes you dizzy.

If you want me to believe in Chi, perform a scientific test of the claims made by "practicitioners". One of the classics, is the Reiki practioner who claims to "feel" energy of other people. Ok, says the skeptic, does it matter if I wear clothes? No, says the practioner. Does it matter of you're looking at me? No says the practioner, I FEEL your Ki. Ok, says the skeptic, then you stand behind this opaque scrim; I'll be behind it, or not, and in various parts of it. Please use your ability to sense energy to point to where I am.

This, is a real challenge, and there is a cash reward for it I believe. This far, no takers. What a shock.

Apply logic accordingly to Chi, Ki, Reiki, Spirit, Aura, Etc... Etc...

yes, you are stuttering. tell me more about internal production of Atropine. so i just hold my breath and my body produces it?

 

[Chimps]

yes, you are stuttering. tell me more about internal production of Atropine. so i just hold my breath and my body produces it?

That's a pretty lame tactic.

He might well be mistaken about Atropine but why don't you try addressing his argument in a mature manner and try to refute all his points.

You do realize that even if he is inaccurate on one point that doesn't render his whole argument invalid, don't you?

 

[Frame Dragger]

yes, you are stuttering. tell me more about internal production of Atropine. so i just hold my breath and my body produces it?

*sigh*... I was trying to keep things simple for the sake of the PHYSICS crowd. So, how about you hold your breath (or try a plastic bag?) while you read this.

Of course ATROPINE, is not endogenous, but other anticholinergics ARE. For the sake of simplicity in a non-medical forum, I am trying to respect the OP who is talking about CHI and the rest who seem to lack any kind of medical expertise. As Chimps pointed out, even leaving the atropine aside (and the EFFECT does remain, it's just a different muscarinic anticholinergic which IS endogenous) the issue is the TOXIDROME as a result.

You seem to be well versed in your basics, so you probably already knew that, and knew that my point held. Or... didn't you? I'm not sure which is MORE small-minded. http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/63/7/764.abstract

That's a start... take off the bag if you haven't seen LIGHT yet.

 

[imiyakawa]

Hypoxia (and internal production of Atropine) and suggestability.

I think you're forgetting the part of my anecdote where I said that the strenuosity of the chi exercises didn't exceed those of the exercises preceeding them, in fact they were less rigorous, which I think refutes the hypoxia argument (I've been training for 5 years, faced much more rigorous exercise, this has never happenewd).

I don't like the suggestability explanation, although this COULD in principle explain it, but being the actual experiencer of this makes me doubtful. The hallucinations were so intense, the memory was so blurred. This wasn't like being suggested whilst in hypnosis to imagine something, this was an intense physiological event akin to a hallucinogenic induced panic attack.

This isn't the only reason i suspect that chi is real, my kung fu teacher can make his 'dan tien' grumble (stomach area) as a result of focused thought (I've felt this). Moreover, his claims as to his personal experience of the feeling of chi flowing around his body ('like fire') coupled with me knowing him for so many years as a sincere & thruthful person (so i suspect a probability of 0 of him lying). OF COURSE, this doesn't constitute a proof in any way shape or form, I'm just stating why I think that P=0.999 that chi is real, whether there's a conventional medical explanation or not.

 

[Chimps]

OF COURSE, this doesn't constitute a proof in any way shape or form, I'm just stating why I think that P=0.999 that chi is real, whether there's a conventional medical explanation or not.

If you are so convinced that it is real why are you even bothering to defend it on a science forum?

You obviously are not going to change your mind no matter how many people attempt to debunk your notions. If it is real to you then fine, but you are never going to find scientific proof, otherwise it would have been found long ago.

 

[imiyakawa]

You obviously are not going to change your mind no matter how many people attempt to debunk your notions.

Are you saying that if you were me you would change your mind because someone said you were experiencing hypoxia and suggestibility. Hypoxia cannot explain it, as there was no reason for me to experience hypoxia in the realitively gentle exercises combined with years of training, and I've never heard of suggestibility causing such severe physiological reactions. If one was to accept this argument OVER the chi hypothesis (with other possible explanations aside), they would be troubled.

I understand your position though, I am yet another anecdote testifying something which has remained unproven for decades. I just wished to throw my story out there for light consideration as it related direcly to the topic, nothing more.

 

[Chimps]

Are you saying that if you were me you would change your mind because someone said you were experiencing hypoxia and suggestibility. Hypoxia cannot explain it, as there was no reason for me to experience hypoxia in the realitively gentle exercises combined with years of training, and I've never heard of suggestibility causing such severe physiological reactions. If one was to accept this argument OVER the chi hypothesis (with other possible explanations aside), they would be troubled.

I understand your position though, I am yet another anecdote testifying something which has remained unproven for decades. I just wished to throw my story out there for light consideration as it related direcly to the topic, nothing more.

I would gravitate towards the most logical explanation, and for me that would rule out the supernatural.

Hypoxia may be incorrect but of course that doesn't mean that by default an unexplainable, unquantifiable and supernatural force was therefore involved. It just means we might not have the knowledge to explain it satisfactorily yet.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Are you saying that if you were me you would change your mind because someone said you were experiencing hypoxia and suggestibility. Hypoxia cannot explain it, as there was no reason for me to experience hypoxia in the realitively gentle exercises combined with years of training, and I've never heard of suggestibility causing such severe physiological reactions. If one was to accept this argument OVER the chi hypothesis (with other possible explanations aside), they would be troubled.

I understand your position though, I am yet another anecdote testifying something which has remained unproven for decades. I just wished to throw my story out there for light consideration as it related direcly to the topic, nothing more.

This is the DEBUNKING forum... it's what we do. As I said, blood/O2 doesn't always follow what you'd expect, and if you replace hypoxia with: hypotension and a variety of other things, you get the same result. I was aiming for simplicity, and trying not to be judgemental. I offered an alternative explanation, nothing more. I don't believe in Chi, so I'd probably be willing to accept deception, mental illness, and standard deviations from the norm of behaviour in the context of the internet before I'd entertain the notion of a mystical force that eludes all tests.

That said, my belief doesn't make me right. The need to resort to anecdotes as the only reliable source of information about "Chi" is amazing given the amount of power and influence it's credited with having. I had a friend once, who was sane, but did tell me that he saw his "sifu" blow a candle out across the room with a gesture. Maybe he was trying to impress me, maybe he was telling a secondhand story from the first person perspective so I would take him seriously? Who knows? I was friends with him for over a decade, and I know he's sane and rational, nor is he more honest or dishonest than any other good person I've met.

That said, none of what I or you have related is scientific... it's the reason that illussions of our (literal) place in the cosmos persisted for so long. Anything as pervasive and manipulatable as Chi, should be open to study and evidence, yet all anyone gets is *rude noise*. I conclude from this that Chi is not a real phenomenon, but I would be interested to pin down what the internal experiences are of those who DO believe and "feel it". The problem is that without the scientific method applied, sorting out who is lying or ill, or mistaken (I'm sure a magician of poor skill could figure out how to make it appear he was extinguishing a candle), or experiencing an unusual, but NORMAL, biological process becomes an impossiblity.

You have "Faith" imiyakawa, and faith has made people experience FAR stranger things than you describe in a lab, under an fMRI. For that matter TMS has done the same minus the faith.

 

[imiyakawa]

Okay, the last two posts of you guys has made 100% sense, so I agree in all totality.

Just to set the record straight, when I referenced "chi" in my previous posts, I didn't intend the assumption to follow that I meant it as a supernatural force - something that I suspected strongly exists, but I didn't mean it was supernatural.

 

[Frame Dragger]

@imiyakawa: If someone sat you in a chair in a doctor's office, and used TMS to reproduce similar experiences that you had with "Chi", and those same people tested your sensei/sifu/etc... and found nothing, what would you believe then? Is there a model that shakes your faith, or are you a closed book presenting a fait accompli?

EDIT: You seem to have a very working knowledge of the negative effects of some drugs... May I be blunt and ask if at some point you've taken LSD or something similar? If so, this could very well be a flashback. If not, and you have an anxiety disorder, again, a strong FoF response IS a massive load of drugs to the system. Finally, you mention a blurred memory, and this makes we wonder if you were exposed to a toxin or drug, or that this is the result of a manic episode or similar state. I'm not judging here... just noting something.

 

[imiyakawa]

@imiyakawa: If someone sat you in a chair in a doctor's office, and used TMS to reproduce similar experiences that you had with "Chi", and those same people tested your sensei/sifu/etc... and found nothing, what would you believe then? Is there a model that shakes your faith, or are you a closed book presenting a fait accompli?

I would of course conclude that there was a ~99.999999999% chance that what occurred to me wasn't this 'chi', and if I thought the test on my teacher was of sufficient standard I would be forced to conclude that he was deluded to some extent.

BUT, please note that at no stage did I 'believe' that this chi existed, I still think that, given my PERSONAL experiences, there's a high % chance that chi exists (NOTE: NOT SAYING IT'S SUPERNATURAL IN ANY WAY.), whatever it is, to whatever extent. I'm honestly looking back at the 2 experiences and thinking this is the only outcome I can arrive at. I don't think I have an emotional investment in this, if you're wondering

BUT THEN AGAIN, after thinking about it, my assigning of a very high probability may have been too premature: there could easily be an explanation to the stomach-rumbling I felt (muscles spasming? what abotu the sound?), my teacher could be deluded as he has a vested interest in the art being real (dedicated whole life to it), and I could've had some sudden physiological consequence of which I've enever experienced from the exercising or from suggestion. (perhaps as a result to some of the scenarios you've suggested)

EDIT: No, 0 drug experiences. Although some friends I used to have were drug users, and I was around for a few of their highs.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I would of course conclude that there was a ~99.999999999% chance that what occurred to me wasn't this 'chi', and if I thought the test on my teacher was of sufficient standard I would be forced to conclude that he was deluded to some extent.

BUT, please note that at no stage did I 'believe' that this chi existed, I still think that, given my PERSONAL experiences, there's a high % chance that chi exists (NOTE: NOT SAYING IT'S SUPERNATURAL.), whatever it is, to whatever extent.

EDIT: No, 0 drug experiences. Although some friends I used to have were drug users, and I was around for a few of their highs.

@imiyakawa: Ok, well then, I'm in this for the long haul and am willing to hear you out completely. As for the drugs, I believe you, but marijuana USE wouldn't really explain this, never mind a "contact high" ;) . No... assuming honesty (and we must, and frankly I will) this is pretty mysterious. What kind of postures were you in? Was this something like Pushing Hands, or something more modified from the Kung-Fu end of things?

 

[imiyakawa]

@imiyakawa: Ok, well then, I'm in this for the long haul and am willing to hear you out completely. As for the drugs, I believe you, but marijuana USE wouldn't really explain this, never mind a "contact high" ;) . No... assuming honesty (and we must, and frankly I will) this is pretty mysterious. What kind of postures were you in? Was this something like Pushing Hands, or something more modified from the Kung-Fu end of things?

Horse stance (google images if you don't know), with arms outstretched facing upwards and kind of going "up" (to get the chi to my head, I was later told). I'd then twist my arms all the way around the other way but so my hands still faced upwards and do the same thing. Following this, some exercises were done to get the chi back down the front of my body (I was told), but I don't remember them as by this time the hallucinations had set in and I could barely stand. (He followed by banging me on the back and doing this other stuff, I was better in ~3/5 minutes. Note: not suggesting causation!)

 

[Frame Dragger]

Horse stance (google images if you don't know), with arms outstretched facing upwards and kind of going "up" (to get the chi to my head, I was later told). Following this, some exercises were done to get the chi back down the front of my body (I was told), but I don't remember them as by this time the hallucinations had set in and I could barely stand. (He followed by banging me on the back and doing this other stuff, I was better in ~3 minutes. Note: not suggesting causation!)

Odd as it may seem, I'm into Wah-Lum Kung-Fu, so the horse stance is VERY familiar. I have to say, barring mental illness the two explanations that common sense would indicate is:

1.) You were drugged.
2.) Chi, or some other unknown mechanism was used to alter your state of mind.

I assume that preparatory to this you've eaten well, are hydrated, and don't have a pre-existing medical condition?

EDIT: Better in 3 minutes, so nothing hallucinogenic in the alkaloid family (mushrooms, peyote, LSD, etc), but other agents would make sense. An anticholinergic would, but I can't see you following directions, and you'd be "Hot as a Hare, Dry as a Bone, Red as a Beet, Mad as a Hatter, Blind as a Bat." (Anticholinergic Toxidrome). Does any of that seem familiar? Flushing, impaired vision, and no I'm not kidding... did you try to undress?

 

[imiyakawa]

Odd as it may seem, I'm into Wah-Lum Kung-Fu, so the horse stance is VERY familiar. I have to say, barring mental illness the two explanations that common sense would indicate is:

1.) You were drugged.
2.) Chi, or some other unknown mechanism was used to alter your state of mind.

I assume that preparatory to this you've eaten well, are hydrated, and don't have a pre-existing medical condition?

EDIT: Better in 3 minutes, so nothing hallucinogenic in the alkaloid family (mushrooms, peyote, LSD, etc), but other agents would make sense. An anticholinergic would, but I can't see you following directions, and you'd be "Hot as a Hare, Dry as a Bone, Red as a Beet, Mad as a Hatter, Blind as a Bat." (Anticholinergic Toxidrome). Does any of that seem familiar? Flushing, impaired vision, and no I'm not kidding... did you try to undress?

Haha no I didn't try to undress. I think an explanation of hypoxia or something is more likely than me being drugged, as I'd been doing ~40 minutes of my normal training before hand so I don't see any window of time where I could get drugged.

Unfortunately, I don't remember how much I'd eaten or drunk, too long ago. Perhaps it could be dehydration.

 

[Frame Dragger]

The 40 minute workout... how quickly did you move from that level of activity to the Chi exercises? Dehydration is possible as a somatic trigger for panic, but not the symptoms themselves. If it had been so severe you couldn't have performed 40 minutes of Katas and such, and 3 minutes to back-to-normal?... nah.

So, Maybe a panic reaction, or a crash in BP as a result of the change in pace and posture. This can be similar to the old trick kids sometimes do (NOTE: DO NOT DO THIS AT HOME OR ANYWHERE), where one holds his breath and stands upright against a wall, while the other presses on The Solar Plexus. If done properly this can induce a brief "faint" (syncopy). There are methods that manipulate the Vagus Nerve to induce syncopy, but it isn't usually preceeded by hallucinations of such length, not to mention you'd have felt terribly nauseous afterwards.

Hmmmmm...

 

[imiyakawa]

I started doing the Chi exercises immediately following the workout. My breath was short, I was tired, but it wasn't something I hadn't gone through before. Hmm, who knows.
a) I'm lying about what happened,
b) I'm lying about my history of drugs,
c) it's Chi (whether a supernatural force or purely medically explainable),
d) any other myriad of physiological possible causes,
e) amazing feat of suggestion,
f) some combinatino of the above.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I started doing the Chi exercises immediately following the workout. My breath was short, I was tired, but it wasn't something I hadn't gone through before. Hmm, who knows.
a) I'm lying about what happened,
b) I'm lying about my history of drugs,
c) it's Chi (whether a supernatural force or purely medically explainable),
d) any other myriad of physiological possible causes,
e) amazing feat of suggestion,
f) some combinatino of the above.

Agreed. I think that's the best we can do, with the caveat that I don't believe in A or B in this case, and you don't seem to display any of D that would that explain this. Your personality as it comes across online, doesn't seem more or less suggestible than most. One way or another, I find this interesting.

 

[imiyakawa]

Strange ><. I wished the people claiming these abilities would actually go out and seek testing, I know I certainly would if chi existed and I could use it.