Is Chi an Actual Force in Our Bodies and Surroundings?

[Alfrez]

Guys. Pseudosciences and conspiracies are not tolerated in this forum, and for perfectly good reason which we all agree as it is anti-science. Do you think chi or qi is a pseudoscience? I need to know before I go on lest this thread get closed up for moderation permanently or get banned.

 

[Proton Soup]

lol, all that gobbledygook disappeared.

seems this stuff is some kind of snake oil marketed to elites

http://tech.mit.edu/V122/N1/1conf.1n.html

 

[berkeman]

Guys. Pseudosciences and conspiracies are not tolerated in this forum, and for perfectly good reason which we all agree as it is anti-science. Do you think chi or qi is a pseudoscience? I need to know before I go on lest this thread get closed up for moderation permanently or get banned.

I think Doc Al said it well in the beginning of this thread:

I've been involved in the martial arts for decades and I'm still waiting for a demonstration of non-physical "chi" (along with FredGarvin, apparently). I'm talking about the BS-ers who claim that they have abilities that "go beyond" the physical.

The (non-BS) masters I know who use the term "chi" readily admit that it's "nothing more" than exquisite reflexes, balance, sensitivity, and body mechanics. Of course, that "nothing more" is plenty--some of these guys will blow your mind! But... violate the laws of physics? Get real.

There are some real aspects to "real Chi", and lots of folks who want it to go beyond the physical, which it does not. To the extent that there may appear to be cases where it goes beyond what is currently understood to be a physical limit, it is worth using the scientific method to explore those cases.

 

[berkeman]

lol, all that gobbledygook disappeared.

Amazing how that happens at the PF

 

[Alfrez]

Chi can be nothing more than the ATPs created by the Mitochondria in the cells in the process called Electron Transport Chain. When you exercise a lot. Your cells would have more mitochondrias packed inside, so it is said one develope more "chi's".

But then, what organized the entire physical body? Nervous system is it as well as bloodstream hormones, chemical signals, muscles, tendons. Are they enough??

If not enough. Then Chi is some additional organizing properties. If enough, then Chi is superfluous.

Also our brain. Is it possible our entire mental selves is created by the physical brain alone? The Qualia.. like redness of red. Could mere physical substance like neurons create it? If it does, then Chi is not needed. But we still don't have proof the brain alone can create qualia in our self-awareness. Do we?

I think Chi science would be definite once Neuroscience is finally mastered which may be several decades or a century later when we are no longer in this earth.

 

[Proton Soup]

Alfrez, you're just making a religious argument. you might as well be talking about the human spirit or soul. and perhaps that is what you're saying. but until you build some machine that manipulates this chi force, that's all it will be, religious belief.

 

[Alfrez]

Or we could accelerate the research if we want to gain benefit of it in our lifetime.

I've been researching about Chi for over a decade. In fact. I got interested in physics, biology, neuroscience, medical, chemistry because I wanted to comprehend what is chi.

I live in the East. We have centers where we literally can manipulate chi in a person's body. But the chi therapists just do the stuff without understanding the physics or biophysical basis of it.

Right now. After a decade, I still don't know what is Chi. For an easy solution, we could just say it is the Oxidative phosphorylation in our metabolic system. But it may not be that simple.

We use chi to control inflammation for example. We have many cases where people are about to get the foot amputated because of gangrene and we do chi therapy which influenced the cells to get the wound healing process accelerated and prevent the amputation.

In inflammation and the complement system of the innate immune system. We know cytokines and other inflammatory mediators travel in the bloodstream and the dynamics is controlled by brownian movements. So how can chi affect it.

Robert Becker has proposed additional pathways for the immune system and nervous system, and it is this acupuncture pathways that chi may attempt to influence.

I study biophysics to know more of it. The most I can reach is the Frohlich frequencies which travel in cellular components. Also Davydov Solitons may be involved. If so, Solitons may be what chi is all about.

Anyone has studied the biophysics of chi here? Of course, I'd be happy if it is nothing more than Oxidative phosphorylation in our metabolic system. But it is more complicated than that.

I'm only interested in the truth of what chi is, whether it is convensional or additional properties. I don't have any financial interest in it, hence not bias by whatever truth I'll find.

 

[Alfrez]

Alfrez, you're just making a religious argument. you might as well be talking about the human spirit or soul. and perhaps that is what you're saying. but until you build some machine that manipulates this chi force, that's all it will be, religious belief.

Ah. I can directly manipulate the chi force, whatever it is. I was a student of Pranic Healing in Asia:

http://www.pranichealing.com/what-pranic-healing

What we do is manipulate the chi in an person's body. I have massive experiences with it. And I've been interested in the biophysics of it.

Hmm.. instead of arguing if chi is real or not. Why not help me design a sensitive biochemical test equipment where I can emit chi to it and see what it can detect much like what the china experiments on chi in a few messages above.

Or those who already have the equipment(s). Come on. I challenge you all to do experiments with me. I need very sensitive equipments... even those used in neutrino experiments are better. I will emit the chi and you can see the results.

Again I'm not interested in chi because my life depends on it or any financial stake it it. No. I'm interested in the facts about it whatever it will be, whether just conventional or additional properties not yet discovered by science.

 

[berkeman]

Or those who already have the equipment(s). Come on. I challenge you all to do experiments with me. I need very sensitive equipments... even those used in neutrino experiments are better. I will emit the chi and you can see the results.

Can you point to any credible experiments that quantitatively show a physical effect from chi on an instrument? If not, and you want to come up with one, that's really on you and not on us.

My impression is that the chi-improvements in medical procedures that you describe are in line with the placebo effect, which we know is very real. There are different ways to elicit the placebo effect, and claims of chi for healing are just another way, IMO.

 

[Alfrez]

Can you point to any credible experiments that quantitatively show a physical effect from chi on an instrument? If not, and you want to come up with one, that's really on you and not on us.

My impression is that the chi-improvements in medical procedures that you describe are in line with the placebo effect, which we know is very real. There are different ways to elicit the placebo effect, and claims of chi for healing are just another way, IMO.

Here:

http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf

In china, there are many experiments like this. Unfortunately. Scientists in the US won't even do the experiments so how can they see the results if they won't even try it. Unfortunately (again), US physicists are expert in theoretical physics. So US physicists are the ones who can derive at the complete theory of Chi, which may be related to unknown physics that can be related to the real Theory of Everything. But they ignored it and left the understanding and investigations to other countries not expert in it.

Btw.. to talk about Chi, one must always talk of the Bioplasmic Body. Because it is the bioplasmic body in man that receives and use Chi, which may be akin to some bosons. In Pranic Healing, we fix disorders in the bioplasmic body. I personally know many patients who have defective bioplasmic body (they hear voices and stuff) who went to many doctors abroad and different countries and can't be cured. Then we detected their bioplasmic body is broken. We use a kind of chi to knit it. Then the hearing voices suddenly stop within the day (after years of hearing it) and the person gets back to normal the next time. So bioplasmic body has
something to do with our qualia or consciousness and its container in the human body.

I know it's difficult to prove it. China scientists are not revolutionary enough like US scientists in theoretical physics. While US scientists don't have access or better yet, ignore many stuff that doesn't have to do with the Standard Model, hence both of them can't solve the mystery of the Bioplasmic Body and Chi.

In a few years after the results of the Large Hadron Collider give us clue to the right physics of the unification, it may give us a clue of what bioplasmic body and chi could be.

Right now. We can do nothing much . Although we can do experiments like the china experiments. I'm looking for the equipments to do that. When I do. I'll present it to James Randi and win a million dollars.

 

[berkeman]

Here:

http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf

In china, there are many experiments like this. Unfortunately. Scientists in the US won't even do the experiments so how can they see the results if they won't even try it. Unfortunately (again), US physicists are expert in theoretical physics. So US physicists are the ones who can derive at the complete theory of Chi, which may be related to unknown physics that can be related to the real Theory of Everything. But they ignored it and left the understanding and investigations to other countries not expert in it.

Btw.. to talk about Chi, one must always talk of the Bioplasmic Body. Because it is the bioplasmic body in man that receives and use Chi, which may be akin to some bosons. In Pranic Healing, we fix disorders in the bioplasmic body. I personally know many patients who have defective bioplasmic body (they hear voices and stuff) who went to many doctors abroad and different countries and can't be cured. Then we detected their bioplasmic body is broken. We use a kind of chi to knit it. Then the hearing voices suddenly stop within the day (after years of hearing it) and the person gets back to normal the next time. So bioplasmic body has
something to do with our qualia or consciousness and its container in the human body.

I know it's difficult to prove it. China scientists are not revolutionary enough like US scientists in theoretical physics. While US scientists don't have access or better yet, ignore many stuff that doesn't have to do with the Standard Model, hence both of them can't solve the mystery of the Bioplasmic Body and Chi.

In a few years after the results of the Large Hadron Collider give us clue to the right physics of the unification, it may give us a clue of what bioplasmic body and chi could be.

Right now. We can do nothing much . Although we can do experiments like the china experiments. I'm looking for the equipments to do that. When I do. I'll present it to James Randi and win a million dollars.

Sorry, you posted that link earlier (I think that post got deleted). I'm asking for a link to an experiment with electronic instrumentation that shows some physical manifestation of chi. That's a pretty straightforward request. Why are you having difficulty complying?

 

[Alfrez]

Sorry, you posted that link earlier (I think that post got deleted). I'm asking for a link to an experiment with electronic instrumentation that shows some physical manifestation of chi. That's a pretty straightforward request. Why are you having difficulty complying?

http://www.reiki.org/reikinews/sciencemeasures.htm

Oh yes, SQUID (Superconducting Quantum Interference Device) magnetometer was used to detect the properties of chi. "Therapeutic Touch" involves chi projection from hands as described in the link above quoted thus:

"In the early 1980’s, Dr. John Zimmerman began a series of important studies on therapeutic touch, using a SQUID magnetometer at the University of Colorado School of Medicine in Denver. Zimmerman discovered that a huge pulsating biomagnetic field emanated from the hands of a TT practitioner. The frequency of the pulsations is not steady, but "sweeps" up and down, from 0.3 to 30 Hz (cycles per second), with most of the activity in the range of 7-8 Hz (Figure 2). The biomagnetic pulsations from the hands are in the same frequency range as brain waves and scientific studies of the frequencies necessary for healing indicate that they naturally sweep back and forth through the full range of therapeutic frequencies, thus being able to stimulate healing in any part of the body.

Confirmation of Zimmerman’s findings came in 1992, when Seto and colleagues, in Japan, studied practitioners of various martial arts and other healing methods. The "Qi emission" from the hands is so strong that they can be detected with a simple magnetometer consisting of two coils, of 80,000 turns of wire. Since then, a number of studies of QiGong practitioners have extended these investigations to the sound, light, and thermal fields emitted by healers. What is particularly interesting is that the pulsation frequency varies from moment to moment. Moreover, medical researchers developing pulsating magnetic field therapies are finding that these same frequencies are effective for ‘ jump starting’ healing in a variety of soft and hard tissues, even in patients unhealed for as long as 40 years. Specific frequencies stimulate the growth of nerves, bones, skin, capillaries, and ligaments. Of course Reiki practitioners and their patients have daily experiences of the healing process being "jump started," and academic medicine is now beginning to accept this therapy as logical and beneficial because of these new scientific findings. In Figure 2 we have bracketed portions of the signal that correspond to the frequencies used in medical devices that stimulate the healing of particular tissues. Individual differences in energy projection and detection."

 

[SkepticJ]

Would you like a million U.S. dollars for free? Prove the existence of this chi to James Randi.

 

[JaredJames]

http://www.reiki.org/reikinews/sciencemeasures.htm

Oh yes, SQUID (Superconducting Quantum Interference Device) magnetometer was used to detect the properties of chi. "Therapeutic Touch" involves chi projection from hands as described in the link above quoted thus:

...

Can you point us to any papers on the subject, not web pages from 'believer' websites?

 

[Alfrez]

Can you point us to any papers on the subject, not web pages from 'believer' websites?

Oh here it is:

Zimmerman J 1990 Laying-on-of-hands, healing and theraphetic touch: a testable theory. BEMI Currents. Journal of Bio-Electro-Magnetics Institute 24:8-17 [Available from Dr. John Zimmerman, 2490 West Moana Lane, Reno, Nevada, 89509-3936, USA. See also an article published in 1985: New technologies detect effects of healing hands. Brain/Mind Bulletin 10 (September 30):3]

 

[JaredJames]

Oh here it is:

Zimmerman J 1990 Laying-on-of-hands, healing and theraphetic touch: a testable theory. BEMI Currents. Journal of Bio-Electro-Magnetics Institute 24:8-17 [Available from Dr. John Zimmerman, 2490 West Moana Lane, Reno, Nevada, 89509-3936, USA. See also an article published in 1985: New technologies detect effects of healing hands. Brain/Mind Bulletin 10 (September 30):3]

So the only way I can get this is to write to the guy? Is there no link to it online?

 

[Alfrez]

So the only way I can get this is to write to the guy? Is there no link to it online?

I got it from the reference section the book "Energy Medicine: The Scientific Basis" by Dr. Oschman.

Anyway. Dr. Zimmerman can be reached at:

http://www.healthgrades.com/directo...s/dr-md-reports/dr-john-zimmerman-md-544defdb

"Dr. John Zimmerman practices cardiology, clinical cardiac electrophysiology and internal medicine in Hackensack, New Jersey. Dr. Zimmerman graduated with an MD 33 years ago."

Clinic Address:

Electrophysiology Associates
20 Prospect Avenue Suite 701
Hackensack, NJ, 07601
Phone Number: (201) 996-2287

Well. I don't live in the United States and haven't even set foot there so I can't visit the guy. Calling him long distance would cost a lot of money so just call him there, get the reference and debunk him if you can and do medical science a service.

Hmm... ok.. I'll find a way to get that reference from him. I almost forgot about Zimmerman stuff. Maybe I'll get a SQUID and measure my chi myself.

I'll look for his email address and write him. And update you. Debunking him is great.

 

[Alfrez]

I'd love to have Zimmerman stuff debunked because based on experience, Chi is something even stranger revolving on the more exotic aspect of physics and could very likely be related to the Theory of Everything.

If we discover the physics of Chi. It would advance humanity a thousand fold. And the world will never be the same again.

 

[JaredJames]

I don't live in the US and regardless aren't going to contact him for the paper. I want to see something published / mainstream. I can write a paper about how I flew to the US using only the power of thought, but that doesn't mean anything.

If his work was accepted, it should appear somewhere and be referenced by other papers - not just a bunch of websites who simply want it to be true.

I've Googled this guy and his paper and it's always the same reference / quote to it popping up. There is never any more and certainly no link to the original paper.

Was it actually published or is it just something that was put out there and spread like wild fire?

If we discover the physics of Chi. It would advance humanity a thousand fold. And the world will never be the same again.

Assuming it even exists. So far we have no evidence showing it does.

 

[drankin]

The following is my opinion. Chi is a theory based on actual accupuncture. Accupuncture has some effectiveness and I believe that since the Chinese couldn't actually "see" why it worked they just created a theory that seemed to explain it. It's already partially accepted as a medical alternative. My health insurance covers it even. Someday we'll scientifically know what it is going on with it. But it won't be called Chi when we do.

 

[SpeedOfDark]

I think this describes Bruce Lee's famous one inch punch.

I've never heard it mentioned in terms of waves but there is standard (fundamental) technique to produce a powerful punch by, essentially, combining an exhalation (the grunt you hear martial artists make) with the twist (or snap in a kick) at the end of the move.

In some respects, this can be thought of as getting the different parts of the move in resonance with one another.

Well, I've never seen Bruce Lee's one inch punch measured, and I see no reasonable evidence. Can anybody present a study proving this? I just can't see how you can build up energy especially sicne Chi apparently can knock people out without you even touching them.

 

[JaredJames]

Derren Brown demonstrated the Chi effect without ever invoking any 'magic forces'.

He went to a martial arts school and took the 'tough guys' into a room. Did his thing, told them to turn around so they couldn't see what he was doing and then performed a set of hand movements and at the point he made a grabbing / punching motion they'd keel over in great pain.

Here's the video: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67471/derren_brown_kung_fu_mind_punch/

 

[gnurf]

The following is my opinion. Chi is a theory based on actual accupuncture. Accupuncture has some effectiveness and I believe that since the Chinese couldn't actually "see" why it worked they just created a theory that seemed to explain it. It's already partially accepted as a medical alternative. My health insurance covers it even. Someday we'll scientifically know what it is going on with it. But it won't be called Chi when we do.

No we'll call it placebo. And we have for a long time. Every well-controlled study on acupuncture shows that it doesn't matter where you stick the needles, so the notion that acupuncture manipulates energy that magically flows in meridians is nonsense. Acupuncture is a placebo treatment.

Puncture (i.e. getting poked with needles) does however seem to have some effect (it hurts among other things), so if you're into that sort of stuff---knock yourself out. But getting an acupuncture "education" seems to be a waste of time. Everyone can be an acupuncturist: Burn some incense, be calm, water the plants in your treatment room, suggest to the patient that your treatment is excellent (cite useless old texts for emphasis), take good time with each patient and let them speak their minds, and finally poke the patient with needles and take their money on their way out. Easy.

Oh and jaredjames brings the focus back to where it should be in his comment above: first we answer the "if", and then we can worry about the "how". Otherwise we might as well research how Santa can fly with reindeer. I'm sure that too would "advance humanity a thousand fold".

 

[nismaratwork]

No we'll call it placebo. And we have for a long time. Every well-controlled study on acupuncture shows that it doesn't matter where you stick the needles, so the notion that acupuncture manipulates energy that magically flows in meridians is nonsense. Acupuncture is a placebo treatment.

Puncture (i.e. getting poked with needles) does however seem to have some effect (it hurts among other things), so if you're into that sort of stuff---knock yourself out. But getting an acupuncture "education" seems to be a waste of time. Everyone can be an acupuncturist: Burn some incense, be calm, water the plants in your treatment room, suggest to the patient that your treatment is excellent (cite useless old texts for emphasis), take good time with each patient and let them speak their minds, and finally poke the patient with needles and take their money on their way out. Easy.

Oh and jaredjames brings the focus back to where it should be in his comment above: first we answer the "if", and then we can worry about the "how". Otherwise we might as well research how Santa can fly with reindeer. I'm sure that too would "advance humanity a thousand fold".

Heh, you remind me of a guy who told me to get over myself in a very excellent way, "Get yourself some door-jam therapy kid, get your head straight." I asked what that was, and he told me this precise line:

"Yah face the jam, hold it with your hands on each side, them slam your head into into until you feel better, or pass out."

I got the point. I've found that in so many ways, these "alternative therapies" are a way for people to feel, not just the placebo effect, but that they exercise some control where they have none. That is a profoundly old and powerful siren song, and it never seems to fail.

Jared: I've never seen that until now, and after being blown away by this amazing demonstration of placebo and suggestion, I laughed so hard I pulled an intercostal muscle!

Totally worth it.

 

[JaredJames]

Jared: I've never seen that until now, and after being blown away by this amazing demonstration of placebo and suggestion, I laughed so hard I pulled an intercostal muscle!

That's just it.

Derren Brown tells you he is only using psychology (mind games and suggestion etc) to achieve the result. He makes that perfectly clear.

The fact you have such a perfect example of how suggestion can work here - the guy was doubled up in pain - there's absolutely no need to invoke anything spiritual or magical or unknown.

 

[nismaratwork]

That's just it.

Derren Brown tells you he is only using psychology (mind games and suggestion etc) to achieve the result. He makes that perfectly clear.

The fact you have such a perfect example of how suggestion can work here - the guy was doubled up in pain - there's absolutely no need to invoke anything spiritual or magical or unknown.

Yep... I think some people need to get to that point before they understand just how vulnerable every one of us is to this kind of manipulation. We have physical pressure points... I for one dislike a punch to the brachial plexus *remembered pain*. We have psychological and neurological weaknesses too, or at least, functions that can be "exploited".

To see a guy like this lay it out in black and white, is incredibly refreshing. The thing is, I wonder if anyone left there thinking they'd just been hit by magic, despite the demonstration. Cognitive dissonance does odd things to us; you can reinforce an irrational belief even in the face of evidence! If people want to, we can ultimately trick ourselves and be tricked in so many ways. Most of them are harmless and fun little illusions or sensory experiences (cold plate, room temp plate), but a few... are not so benign when you have people willing to bank on ignorance.

 

[JaredJames]

I have no doubt the 'masters' that were there convinced the others that Derren had strong Chi about him. It only makes sense from their point of view - and really speaking, anyone who doesn't know what he's doing.

He does this a lot to people (not making them keel over in pain, just random things) and it shows just how susceptible we are to it.

The best one I've seen from him is called "The Heist". He does a 'training course' for business people, profiles them, gives them a toy gun as a 'momento' of the day and narrows down to four and then subliminally conditions them to act when they hear a certain song. Something to do with 'going for it' - acting on impulse and 'taking what they want'.
A month or so later, he arranges everything perfectly (calls them to a meeting with the gun, on the way they have to walk down a road he has pre-setup with actors), gets a car to drive by playing the music and on hearing it, because of what he's done to them, they pull the gun and steal £200,000 from a security van collecting money from a shop.

This from four people who would never even consider this before he met with them.

People don't realize just how easily we can be influenced.

 

[JaredJames]

Here's another good one with Simon Pegg: http://www.yourdailymedia.com/video/watch/5298/

 

[gnurf]

While we're on the topic of Derren Brown... One of my favorite clips is where he convinces a woman that she can't speak by using a worthless "voodoo" doll.

 

[JaredJames]

Well the point I was making with Derren Brown is that we are all very susceptible to suggestion.

Look at Simon Pegg, he convinced him that what he'd always wanted was a bike - using nothing more than some suggestive objects and words. Damn clever.