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manjuvenamma

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In summary: Also, you can try searching for online physics forums or forums specifically for tensor analysis and differential geometry. There are also many physics communities on social media platforms like Reddit and Quora where you may be able to find knowledgeable individuals to discuss these topics with.

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manjuvenamma

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pam

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The current through a surface is given by

[tex]\int{\vec j}\cdot\vec{dA}[/tex], which is a scalar.

But a differential current element in a wire in the Biot-Savart law

is [tex]I\vec{dL}[/tex], which is a vector.

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"Current" is a 3-form. I'll be honest- I have no idea what that means, other than it's sort of a dual to a vector. In practical use, the current is a vector because behind the scenes the metric tensor was used to convert it.

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Defennder

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pam

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Flux is a scalar.

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Or maybe I am confusing the issue- in elementary (i.e. undergrad) treatments, the current (like velocity) is a vector, while flux (like quantity) is a scalar.

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Phrak

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Andy Resnick said:

Or maybe I am confusing the issue- in elementary (i.e. undergrad) treatments, the current (like velocity) is a vector, while flux (like quantity) is a scalar.

This stuff has been bothering me too. In spacetime, E and B are elements of a 2-form called the electromagnetic field tensor on occasion.

If current density is a 3-form, it's dual in 3 dimensional space is a scalar (0-form).

In spacetime, the current density in combination with charge density would be 3-form. But in 4 dimenional spacetime its dual is a 1-form.

I'm not sure where it makes sense to talk about electromagnetism in the context of forms that live in three dimensions.

But the units in question do attach themselves to the basis of the form, so that if you take the dual of something in three dimenisons having with per-length-squared, its dual will have units of length.

I really must sort all of this stuff out, but ... so many questions, so little brain.

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tiny-tim

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Phrak said:In spacetime, E and B are elements of a 2-form called the electromagnetic field tensor on occasion.

Yes.

In 4-dimensional space-time, E and B are the six components of a 2-form, [tex](E_x\,,\,E_y\,,\,E_z\,,\,B_x\,,\,B_y\,,\,B_z)[/tex].

Loosely speaking, a 2-form is a tensor (a 4 x 4 square) with all the diagonal terms zero, and the above-diagonal terms equal to minus the below-diagonal terms.

So instead of 16 independent terms (= 4 x 4), 4 are zero, and 6 of the remaining 12 are minus the other 6, leaving only 6 independent terms, 3 of which are [tex](E_x\,,\,E_y\,,\,E_z)[/tex] and 3 of which are [tex](B_x\,,\,B_y\,,\,B_z)[/tex].

E and B separately

But if the observer changes to a different velocity, then E and B get mixed up with each other - so 3-dimensionally they are vectors, but 4-dimensionally they aren't, though together they are the parts of a tensor (or 2-form).

Oh, and this all works in

[size=-2](Current isn't a 3-form. A 1-form is a vector. In 4 dimensions, a 3-form is the dual of a 1-form: so the dual of a vector is an "axial vector". I think angular momentum is a 3-form.)[/size]

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Phrak

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Could you possibly check out the thread, "Exterior Calculus and Differential Forms?"

under Tensor Analysis & Differential Geometry? The (*) are the Hodge dual operator.

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pmb_phy

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Current is amanjuvenamma said:

Pete

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tiny-tim

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_density:

Current density is a measure of the density of electrical current. It is defined as a vector whose magnitude is the electric current per cross-sectional area. In SI unit, the current density is measured in amperes per square metre or coulomb per second per square metre.

Electrical current is a coarse, average quantity that tells what is happening in an entire wire.

Phrak said:

Could you possibly check out the thread, "Exterior Calculus and Differential Forms?"

under Tensor Analysis & Differential Geometry? The (*) are the Hodge dual operator.

Let's see …

Phrak said:Where might I find a physics forum where I could address individuals who are actually capable in this field? {(Tensor Analysis & Differential Geometry)}

mmm … beats me …

Have you tried the poster of thread "Hodge operator and adjoints"?:

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Phrak

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Thanks, Tiny.

I guess I'm going it alone.

-deCraig (so many questions, so little brain)

I guess I'm going it alone.

-deCraig (so many questions, so little brain)

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manjuvenamma

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tiny-tim

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manjuvenamma said:

Ok:

(And in relativity,

And forget about 3-forms (in four dimension, they are the "duals" of vectors) - you won't need them.

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Phrak

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manjuvenamma said:

I've really enjoyed all the talk about differential forms. It's helped me clarify some issues but... it seems the problem in question is about axial vectors vs. polar vectors.

A vector cross product is a polar vector. It's not a 'real' vector. It's sign depends on the chirility (or parity, or handedness) of the coordinate system. (And, by the way, this all makes more sense of in the calculus of differential forms.)

Within Maxwell's equations the current is obtained from the cross product of the magnetic field.

[tex]\bar{J}=\nabla \times \bar{B} - \partial\bar{E}/\partial t[/tex]

For torque,

[tex]\bar{M}=\bar{F}\times\bar{r}[/tex] .

Both M and the B part of J are axial vectors; also called psuedo-vectors.

Now, angular momentum is also a psuedo-vector.

I vaguely recall that angual momentums add in peculiar ways. Maybe I was dreaming...

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tiny-tim

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Phrak said:A vector cross product is a polar vector. It's not a 'real' vector. It's sign depends on the chirility (handedness) of the coordinate system. (And, by the way, this is all made sense of in the calculus of differential forms.)

{snip} Both M and J are axial vectors; also called psuedo-vectors.

Now, angular momentum is also a psuedo-vector.

Hi Phrak!

Yes, you're right: technically, angular momentum and torque are axial vectors (or pseudo-vectors), which are 2-forms in three-dimensional space.

And current-plus-charge-density is a 3-form in four-dimensional space, because it is the curl (the four-dimensional cross-product derivative, "∆ x") of the electro-magnetic field (which is a 2-form in four-dimensional space).

I vaguely recall that angular momentums do not add like vectors. Is this true?

No. In three-dimensional space, the geometry of axial vectors (2-forms) is exactly the same as of ordinary vectors (1-forms), only "inside-out" (mathspeak: "opposite chirality"). So "vector addition" still works.

And in four-dimensional space, the geometry of 3-forms is the same as of ordinary vectors (1-forms), only "inside-out".

Which is why my recommendation is to forget about the difference!

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Phrak

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Here's an extract from the above link.

"To the extent that physical laws are the same for right-handed and left-handed coordinate systems (i.e. invariant under parity), the sum of a vector and a pseudovector is not meaningful."

Current is the sum of a vector and pseudovector.

manjuvenamma, maybe you could quote what your source had to say about addition of currents.

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Hurkyl

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IMHO, it's better to understand how things are the same and how they are different, rather than pretending everything is the same.tiny-tim said:Which is why my recommendation is to forget about the difference!

Yes, you should recognize that the set of (tangent) vectors and the set of 3-forms are both four-dimensional spaces.

But you should also recognize that vectors correspond to directions, and 3-forms to volume elements. e.g. in an orthonormal coordinate system, the standard basis for 3-forms are the volume elements [itex]dt \, dx \, dy, dx \, dy \, dz, dy \, dz \, dt,[/itex] and [itex]dz \, dt \, dx[/itex].

I think it is a bad idea to advise people to mentally ignore the differences; the "proper" method is no more difficult to use than the "sloppy" method... you just have to be willing to do it.

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tiny-tim

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Current density is a vector: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_density

Currentdensityis a measure of the density of electrical current. It is defined as a vector whose magnitude is the electric current per cross-sectional area. In SI unit, the current density is measured in amperes per square metre or coulomb per second per square metre.

And current itself is a scalar (as

The current flowing through a surface S can be calculated by the following relation:

[tex]I\,=\, \int_S\,J.dS[/tex]– where the current is in fact the integral of the dot product of the current density vector and the differential surface element dS, i.e. the net flux of the current density vector field flowing through the surface S.

Phrak said:Current is the sum of a vector and pseudovector.

I don't think so, not even for a current density. One talks for example of the divergence of a current density, and I don't think you can define that for a vector plus a psudeovector.

(Though there may be situations where there are two

Hurkyl said:But you should also recognize that vectors correspond to directions, and 3-forms to volume elements.

This is a bit

Technically, of course, it's correct -

For practical physics, torque is a vector, not an area element, and you'd only notice the difference if for some reason you wanted to measure torque in a pair of mirror-image experiments!

It is in that sense that I still recommend that anyone not doing high-energy physics will understand torque perfectly adequately as a vector!

I think it is a bad idea to advise people to mentally ignore the differences

The OP himself asked for explanation with simplification:

manjuvenamma said:If some one can simplify this, that would help a great deal!

Sometimes it helps to point out the differences, sometimes it helps to point out the similarities.

Too much information (as in some other threads) can be detrimental to understanding.

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Hurkyl

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Yes he did -- for the purpose of helping him understand why some things are neither scalars nor (tangent) vectors.tiny-tim said:The OP himself asked for explanation with simplification:

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Phrak

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Tiny. It does make a big difference when you go to take the derivatives of a form or derivative of its dual. If a form is exact on a smooth manifold, for instance, its derivative is zero.

But what bothers me... no one seems, yet to have answered the original poster's question about vector addition--unless I have. I'd like to buy a clue.

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Phrak

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manjuvenamma said:

manjuvenamma, all the quantities you see in a course on electromagnetism without all the decorations, are vectors and scalars.

But I'm sure you've seen matrices. A 2-form can be written as a matrix. A 3-form would look like a three dimenisonal matrix, etc.

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Current is a vector quantity, meaning that it has both magnitude and direction. The magnitude of current is measured in amperes (A), while the direction is determined by the flow of positively charged particles.

A vector quantity has both magnitude and direction, while a scalar quantity only has magnitude. Vectors are represented by arrows, with the length of the arrow indicating the magnitude and the direction indicating the direction of the vector.

Current is represented mathematically by the equation I = Q/t, where I is the current, Q is the charge, and t is the time. This equation shows that current is directly proportional to charge and inversely proportional to time.

Yes, current can be negative. This typically occurs when the direction of the current is opposite to the direction of conventional current flow, which is from positive to negative. In reality, the flow of electrons is from negative to positive, but for simplicity, we use conventional current flow.

Current is measured using an ammeter, which is a device that measures the flow of electric charge through a circuit. The unit of measurement for current is amperes (A), named after the French physicist André-Marie Ampère.

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