News Is Free Speech Being Confused with Hate Speech in Schools?

[Al68]

My proximal point was that all flags are a symbol of "violence." All nation states are founded on the notion of militarily protecting their borders and using violence or its threat to enforce their rules

Sure but "violence" in that sense encompasses the entire spectrum between purely defensive force and mass murder, rendering the word "violence" a fairly meaningless word to use in that context. And your second statement is true for most nations that are not nation states as well, like the U.S.

 

[Gokul43201]

My real point was that it is all very subjective, and it is indeed a slippery slope to ban forms of speech, symbolic or otherwise, for the perception of what they might mean or the ideas they advocate.

To the best of my understanding, schools do not possesses the authority to ban forms of speech based on the perception of what they might mean or the ideas they might advocate. They may only ban speech that is expected to significantly disrupt their ability to function smoothly - the perceived meaning of the speech is essentially irrelevant.

 

[DaveC426913]

All nation states are founded on the notion of militarily protecting their borders

Nope. Not all.

Sez your Canadian friends to the North...

 

[Al68]

All nation states are founded on the notion of militarily protecting their borders

Nope. Not all.

Sez your Canadian friends to the North...

Galteeth specifically referred to nation states. There may be a counter-example, but Canada isn't one of them, since it's not a nation state.

 

[zomgwtf]

Galteeth specifically referred to nation states. There may be a counter-example, but Canada isn't one of them, since it's not a nation state.

I'm pretty sure he just misused the word. It seems he was responding to something that was said about America and America is not a nation-state, just like Canada.

 

[Galteeth]

I'm pretty sure he just misused the word. It seems he was responding to something that was said about America and America is not a nation-state, just like Canada.

Ok, I know this is venturing off topic, but how do you define "nation-state"?

Going by wikipedia, the US and Canada seem to qualify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

 

[Galteeth]

Sure but "violence" in that sense encompasses the entire spectrum between purely defensive force and mass murder, rendering the word "violence" a fairly meaningless word to use in that context. And your second statement is true for most nations that are not nation states as well, like the U.S.

I' be happy to discuss this further, but probably a new thread is appropriate.

 

[zomgwtf]

Ok, I know this is venturing off topic, but how do you define "nation-state"?

Going by wikipedia, the US and Canada seem to qualify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

Both USA and Canada are home to a huge amount of different ethnicities and religions. There are other reasons but I think those are the largest.

 

[BobG]

Ok, I know this is venturing off topic, but how do you define "nation-state"?

Going by wikipedia, the US and Canada seem to qualify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

Both USA and Canada are home to a huge amount of different ethnicities and religions. There are other reasons but I think those are the largest.

Nation-states refer to countries. Nations refer to people. Granted, common usage creates so much ambiguity in the terms, that it's almost easier to differentiate between nations and countries - especially if you want to get picky and differentiate between states (borders), nations (people), and decide that to be a nation-state, there has to be one nation (people) that coincides with the state borders.

You can have nations that overlap state borders (the Kurds, for example). You can have more than one nation within a country. China has the most nations using the social term. India, United States, Canada, and the old USSR used to fill out the top five. (In the US, those nations would consist of Iriquois, Navaho, Hopi, etc).

This was what he was referring to, using a tighter restriction on the term nation-states than is usually used (even if his usage might be the technically correct usage?)

 

[zomgwtf]

Nation-states refer to countries. Nations refer to people. Granted, common usage creates so much ambiguity in the terms, that it's almost easier to differentiate between nations and countries - especially if you want to get picky and differentiate between states (borders), nations (people), and decide that to be a nation-state, there has to be one nation (people) that coincides with the state borders.

You can have nations that overlap state borders (the Kurds, for example). You can have more than one nation within a country. China has the most nations using the social term. India, United States, Canada, and the old USSR used to fill out the top five. (In the US, those nations would consist of Iriquois, Navaho, Hopi, etc).

This was what he was referring to, using a tighter restriction on the term nation-states than is usually used (even if his usage might be the technically correct usage?)

Well it's not a tighter definition, it's the correct definition but yes... and I was just pointing out to Al68 that the original usage of this term in this thread wasn't one using that definition.

 

[Al68]

Ok, I know this is venturing off topic, but how do you define "nation-state"?

Going by wikipedia, the US and Canada seem to qualify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

Going by wikipedia, neither would qualify. The U.S. is not a nation state for two major reasons:

First, the U.S. is not a state at all. It is a nation of member states. The federal government is not a "sovereign territorial unit", it gets its "political legitimacy" from a contract between the member (sovereign) states.

Second, the political boundary of the U.S., or its member states, is not the geographical boundary of an ethnic or cultural group.

 

[mugaliens]

My question is - why is the confederate flag taken as a reference to the KKK? Please- answer me that. I really want to know the source of this.

It's largely a misnomer, although some racist groups have adopted it (wrongly, in my belief) as a symbol of their movements. In so doing, I believe they've pretty much smeared its true cultural heritage, and ruined its use for other, non-racist, and legitimate groups which reflect a Southern heritage.

 

[Galteeth]

It's largely a misnomer, although some racist groups have adopted it (wrongly, in my belief) as a symbol of their movements. In so doing, I believe they've pretty much smeared its true cultural heritage, and ruined its use for other, non-racist, and legitimate groups which reflect a Southern heritage.

Well, actually, I would say there is some historical connection. The KKK started out largely as a southern insurgency movement during reconstruction, composed of former confederate officers.

 

[WhoWee]

Well, actually, I would say there is some historical connection. The KKK started out largely as a southern insurgency movement during reconstruction, composed of former confederate officers.

Yes - however, the KKK movement was not limited to the South. This wiki article addresses the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

"Three Klans
First KKK
The first Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee by veterans of the Confederate Army. Although it never had an organizational structure above the local level, similar groups across the South adopted the name and methods. Klan groups spread throughout the South as an insurgent movement during the Reconstruction era in the United States As a secret vigilante group, the Klan focused its anger reacted against Radical Republican and sought to restore white supremacy by threats and violence, including murder, against black and white Republicans. In 1870 and 1871 the federal government passed the Force Acts, which were used to prosecute Klan crimes. Prosecution of Klan crimes and enforcement of the Force Acts suppressed Klan activity. In 1874 and later, however, newly organized and openly active paramilitary organizations, such as the White League and the Red Shirts, started a fresh round of violence aimed at suppressing Republican voting and running Republicans out of office. These contributed to segregationist white Democrats regaining political power in all the Southern states by 1877.

Second KKK
In 1915, the second Klan was founded and remained a small organization in Georgia. Starting in 1921 it adopted a modern business system of recruiting (which paid most of the initiation fee and costume charges to the organizers) and grew rapidly nationwide at a time of prosperity. The second KKK preached Americanism and purification of politics, with a heavy tome of racism, anti-Catholicism, anti-Communism, nativism, and antisemitism. Some local groups took part in attacks on private houses, and carried out other violent activities. The violent episodes were generally in the South.[11]

The second Klan was a formal fraternal organization, with a national and state structure. At its peak in the mid-1920s, the organization claimed to include about 15% of the nation's eligible population, approximately 4–5 million men. Internal divisions, criminal behavior by leaders, and external opposition brought about a collapse in membership, which had dropped to about 30,000 by 1930. It finally faded away in the 1940s.[12]

Third KKK
The "Ku Klux Klan" name was used by many independent local groups opposing the Civil Rights Movement and desegregation, especially in the 1950s and 1960s. During this period, they often forged alliances with Southern police departments, as in Birmingham, Alabama; or with governor's offices, as with George Wallace of Alabama.[13] Several members of KKK groups were convicted of murder in the deaths of civil rights workers and children in the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham. Today, researchers estimate that there may be approximately 150 Klan chapters with upwards of 5,000 members nationwide.[14]

Today, a large majority of sources consider the Klan to be a "subversive or terrorist organization".[14][15][16][17] In 1999, the city council of Charleston, South Carolina passed a resolution declaring the Klan to be a terrorist organization.[18] A similar effort was made in 2004 when a professor at the University of Louisville began a campaign to have the Klan declared a terrorist organization so it could be banned from campus.[19] In April 1997, FBI agents arrested four members of the True Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in Dallas for conspiracy to commit robbery and to blow up a natural gas processing plant.[20]"

At it's peak, the KKK was a national organization.