Understanding Glass: Is it a Solid or Liquid?

[Igid]

Please help me in this. Are gel, cream and paste liquids? I'm getting the answer for primary school students. So, please help me explaining in simple way. Thank you!

Igid

 

[JamesU]

I think they're all solids. cream might be a liquid.

 

[whozum]

Look at the definition of liquid :)

 

[GOD__AM]

Please help me in this. Are gel, cream and paste liquids? I'm getting the answer for primary school students. So, please help me explaining in simple way. Thank you!

Igid

I think they are mixtures of both solids and liquids. For the most part the things you mentioned will evaporate or dry up when exposed to the air and leave behind some solids.

 

[Mk]

A solid is a state of matter, characterized by a definite volume and a definite shape (it resists deformation). Within a solid, atoms/molecules are relatively close together, or "rigid"; however, this does not prevent the solid from becoming deformed or compressed. In the solid phase of matter, atoms have a fixed spatial ordering; because all matter has some kinetic energy, the atoms in even the most rigid solid move slightly, but this movement is "invisible".

A liquid is a phase of matter and a fluid whose volume is fixed under conditions of constant temperature and pressure, and, whose shape is usually determined by the container it fills. Furthermore, liquids exert pressure on the sides of a container as well as on anything within the liquid itself; this pressure is transmitted undiminished in all directions.

Gel is a liquid, cream (like milk) is a liquid, cream (like ointment) is a liquid, paste is a liquid. For those who say othersise, pour or squeeze them into a small cup, and see if they spread out and form into the shape of their container.

 

[Gokul43201]

Try semisolid !

The boundary between a solid and a liquid is not well defined (whether in terms of viscosity or the ability to support shear stress), and things living in the grey area can safely be called semisolids.

Mk, your definitions of a liquid lack any mention of time scales. A piece of glass, given sufficient time, will flow to fill a container and exert pressure on the side walls. But while some will call glass a liquid, most still like to think of it as a solid.

 

[Astronuc]

Solid, liquid and gas are the three major distinctions of the state of matter. However there are some materials which may exhibit charateristics of two states, such as gels, creams or pastes.

As Gokul mentioned, "semi-solid" may be appropriate, but also perhaps semi-liquid. Glass is effectively an amorphous solid, i.e. not crystalline lattice structure. Glass actually flows (creeps) but very slowly. Concrete/cement also flow, which has interesting implications for many man-made structures, which should last a long-time.

Gel's are a form of 'colloid'. From Wikipedia:

A gel is an apparently solid, jellylike material formed from a colloidal solution. By weight, gels are mostly liquid, yet they behave like solids. An example is gelatin.

Here are some definitions of colloid.

In general, a colloid or colloidal dispersion, is a two-phase system of matter; small droplets or particles of one substance, the dispersed phase, are dispersed in another, continuous phase forming so called phase colloid. Another type of colloid is called molecular colloid and is formed of macromolecules dispersed in a continuous phase (dispersion medium).

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloid

Schlumberger (oil services company) - http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com/Display.cfm?Term=colloid


The is a good book, but hard to find - "Seven States of Matter" by Milton Gottlieb (1966). I read it about 30+ years ago, and it gives a good overview of the states of matter.

 

[hexhunter]

A piece of glass, given sufficient time, will flow to fill a container and exert pressure on the side walls. But while some will call glass a liquid, most still like to think of it as a solid.

are you sure? because old glass was made larger at the bottom anyway, well, according to a historian atleast...

what are these states?

 

[Nereid]

How about aerogel?

Gas? solid?

 

[hexhunter]

can you breathe in this areogel? and if so, would you just fall to the bottom or float?

 

[GOD__AM]

Freshly mixed concrete appears to be a liquid, but it is made up of stone aggregate, cement, sand, and water. It's a mixture at this point of solids and liquid. If you remove a stone from this concrete you will find it to be very much a solid not liquid. In grade school science I remember discussing adding substances together and determining whether they were mixtures or new substances created through a chemical reaction. I think you can only apply the term solid, liquid, or gas to individual groups of the same molecules. Sure you can have 2 liquids in the same glass but its still a mixture.

Lets say we have a glass filled with marbles and water, what would you consider this a solid or liquid...it's a mixture.

 

[Gokul43201]

How about aerogel?

Gas? solid?

Aerogel, is much more solid than your typical gooey gel. It shears and it doesn't flow. Also importantly, it is anisotropic over microscopic scales.

 

[Gokul43201]

Freshly mixed concrete appears to be a liquid, but it is made up of stone aggregate, cement, sand, and water. It's a mixture at this point of solids and liquid. If you remove a stone from this concrete you will find it to be very much a solid not liquid. In grade school science I remember discussing adding substances together and determining whether they were mixtures or new substances created through a chemical reaction. I think you can only apply the term solid, liquid, or gas to individual groups of the same molecules. Sure you can have 2 liquids in the same glass but its still a mixture.

Lets say we have a glass filled with marbles and water, what would you consider this a solid or liquid...it's a mixture.

This distinction is important for many kinds of gels where you will find that, on setting for long periods, the different components tend to partially separate. But even when invoking the rebuttal based on mixtures, there is sometimes a grey area. The counter-argument often used is that a state can be assigned to a homogeneous mixture but not a heterogeneous one. The grey area : where the crossover happens...

 

[zoobyshoe]

A piece of glass, given sufficient time, will flow to fill a container and exert pressure on the side walls. But while some will call glass a liquid, most still like to think of it as a solid.

This is a myth that was effectively debunked a couple years ago. The myth was started by someone examining a stained glass window in an old Cathedral in Europe. All the pieces of glass seemed to be thicker at the bottom than the top. The person concluded the glass had flowed over several centuries.

As hexhunter was trying to point out, further examinations of Cathedral stained glass have shown that many windows from the same period have a statistically proper number of pieces that are thicker at the top than the bottom.

All the glass back then was hand blown, and they had no way to regulate the thickness. It is likely that the maker of the window that precipitated this rumor just put all the glass in thick end down for consistancy's sake. They can't find any others like it.

 

[C1ay]

This is a myth that was effectively debunked a couple years ago. The myth was started by someone examining a stained glass window in an old Cathedral in Europe. All the pieces of glass seemed to be thicker at the bottom than the top. The person concluded the glass had flowed over several centuries.

As hexhunter was trying to point out, further examinations of Cathedral stained glass have shown that many windows from the same period have a statistically proper number of pieces that are thicker at the top than the bottom.

All the glass back then was hand blown, and they had no way to regulate the thickness. It is likely that the maker of the window that precipitated this rumor just put all the glass in thick end down for consistancy's sake. They can't find any others like it.

Here's a good article on the subject of glass.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yeah, that's good. Also a good discussion of the larger solid/liquid dichotomy.

 

[GOD__AM]

The counter-argument often used is that a state can be assigned to a homogeneous mixture but not a heterogeneous one. The grey area : where the crossover happens...

Ok I had to look up hetrogeneous anyway the description for hetrogeneous mixture gave granite as an example. For homogeneous air is used as an exapmle. Both in this case can be assigned a "state". Still if you separate the components (in either mixture) which aren't bound chemically you get individual compounds with individual properties and states. By assigining states to mixtures we are just being incomplete in the description.

 

[Gokul43201]

This is a myth that was effectively debunked a couple years ago. ...

Hmmm...didn't know this. Interesting !

But in any case, the existence of creep at STP is well-known and well documented among several solids, including metals like indium.

 

[Gokul43201]

Ok I had to look up hetrogeneous anyway the description for hetrogeneous mixture gave granite as an example. For homogeneous air is used as an exapmle. Both in this case can be assigned a "state".

Let me rephrase. A heterogeneous mixture need not necessarily have a state assigned to it.

Still if you separate the components (in either mixture) which aren't bound chemically you get individual compounds with individual properties and states. By assigining states to mixtures we are just being incomplete in the description.

But virtually anything you have in reality is a mixture. Show me a pure, isolated element or compound and I'll show you an egg balancing on its tip. By not allowing a 'stat'e to be assigned to a mixture, you are grossly hampering the usefulness it provides to communication.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Hmmm...didn't know this. Interesting !

Yeah. I used to love telling people that glass was a liquid.

 

[JamesU]

Yeah. I used to love telling people that glass was a liquid.

Who believed you?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Who believed you?

Every zoobie I told.

 

[Gokul43201]

Like that's an achievement...

 

[rainbowings]

maybe i m missing the context ... but glass IS a liquid. a very viscous one and one that requires nonequilibrium statistical mechanical description.

 

[zoobyshoe]

maybe i m missing the context ... but glass IS a liquid. a very viscous one and one that requires nonequilibrium statistical mechanical description.

Check out this site and see if you agree or not.

Is glass liquid or solid?
Address:http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/Glass/glass.html Changed:6:32 PM on Thursday, April 24, 2003

The main point, I think, is that glass is not going to slowly take the shape of a container, even after centuries.

 

[Gokul43201]

The main point, I think, is that glass is not going to slowly take the shape of a container, even after centuries.

Not even in a mere 10^{9} centuries ?

Also see : http://hypertextbook.com/physics/matter/glass/

 

[zoobyshoe]

That site is interesting, Gokul. It asserts that glass is another phase in and of itself: solid, liquid, gas, glass.

edit: and plasma. Musn't forget plasma.

 

[Gokul43201]

That site is interesting, Gokul. It asserts that glass is another phase in and of itself: solid, liquid, gas, glass.

edit: and plasma. Musn't forget plasma.

The glass being referred to there is not just the transparent, SiO2 based molecular network material that we make windows out of - it refers to a whole class of materials that exhibit the specified characteristics.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The glass being referred to there is not just the transparent, SiO2 based molecular network material that we make windows out of - it refers to a whole class of materials that exhibit the specified characteristics.

Reading about ceramics, and especially glazes, I've run across the information that many things can undergo "vitrification", before, yes. I hadn't ever come across mention of this as one of the "phases", along with solid, liquid, etc. Are there any other "phases" you humans have been keeping secret from the zoobies?

 

[russ_watters]

The glass being referred to there is not just the transparent, SiO2 based molecular network material that we make windows out of - it refers to a whole class of materials that exhibit the specified characteristics.

Yeah - glass is a glass. We also discussed it a little HERE .

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yeah - glass is a glass. We also discussed it a little HERE .

That whole thread is interesting, not just the glass part.

 

[Gokul43201]

Yeah - glass is a glass. We also discussed it a little HERE .

Glasses get a bad deal there. The representation of a glass as merely an amorphous solid is incorrect. Glasses are unlike normal amorphous solids, which can be described by equilibrium statistical mechanics. In such solids, fluctuations in thermodynamic and transport properties are on timescales that are small compared to typical measurement times. This is not true of glasses.

And in addition to "glass" glasses you have spin glasses, Fermi glasses, Bose glasses and metallic glasses (to name a few others).

 

[zoobyshoe]

And in addition to "glass" glasses you have spin glasses, Fermi glasses, Bose glasses and metallic glasses (to name a few others).

Do these share "glass" glass' transparency to light?

 

[Gokul43201]

Do these share "glass" glass' transparency to light?

Not at all. That works only for the "glass"glass.

 

[Nereid]

Mk, your definitions of a liquid lack any mention of time scales. A piece of glass, given sufficient time, will flow to fill a container and exert pressure on the side walls. But while some will call glass a liquid, most still like to think of it as a solid.

In pondering this, and definitions in general, perhaps we could add something about physical scale? To a bacterium, an aerogel may look something like a cave system (or a multistorey building) does to us; 'microscopic structure' is a purely human convention; 'atomic' or 'molecular' scale would be less arbitrary ... but then, how would you define the solid/liquid distinction at that level? In terms of 'microscopic solid/liquid/gas constituents', what is a tree, or a cell comprised of?

Going 'big', or involving gravity at a different scale, materials exhibit different behaviours - high tensile steel, or perhaps spider silk, would retain its 'shape' to much greater physical scale (against self gravity, which would tend to make it spherical) than, say, pure gold. If we go even stronger (gravity), to the surface of a cold white dwarf or neutron star, in what sense are our earthly, classical definitions applicable?

 

[Gokul43201]

How often do you find terms like liquid or solid quoted in scientific literature ?

The words are very useful for communicating the nature of common things around us, but not so good for scientific communication. "Solidity" is not a physical property, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Nereid]

Sorry readers, there's a context to my remarks. I'm engaged (elsewhere) in a discussion on the underpinnings of the concepts we use so blithely, and how this can lead to unrealised inconsistencies. The particular examples I was working with were 'space' and 'time', and the limits to which anything sensible could be said about 'before the Big Bang', especially without reference to a theory.

I'm beginning to realize that one doesn't need to enter the Planck regime (where GR and QFT are wildly incompatible) to show that intuitive notions can be seriously misleading ... and that there's nothing, a priori, that can guide you to how (i.e. in what way) your intuitions mislead you.

 

[Ruslan_Sharipov]

Glass is definitely a solid material

Here's a good article on the subject of glass.

Yes, it is a good article. However, in the conclusion part, Philip Gibbs, the author of this article, does not give a definite answer to the main question. He says: "There is no clear answer to the question "Is glass solid or liquid?".

The matter is that the plastic flow of solids and the flow of liquids (even very viscous ones) are two different phenomena. Viscous liquids resist to shear deformation because of the velocity gradients produced when applying such a deformation. Solids, to the contrary, resist to shear deformation even when all velocity gradients relaxed and no motion is present at all. In the case of plastic solids (both amorphous and crystalline), the force of resistance will subside in time. So, the definite answer is that "glass is solid".

I would like to suggest the following papers, where the exact mathematical description for plastic deformations of solids is being developed. There are two unproved corollary there. You are welcome to discuss and prove them in your own papers.

http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0304190
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0408433
http://arxiv.org/abs/math-ph/0410006
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0410552
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0411148
http://arxiv.org/abs/math-ph/0502007
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0504180

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