Is It Justifiable for Police to Use a Taser on a 10-Year-Old?

[Borek]

http://news.aol.com/article/ozark-police-officer-dustin-bradshaw/772708

Mom calling police to unruly 10 yo girl? This is ridiculous. Perhaps less ridiculous than handcuffed kindergarten kid several years ago, but still idiotic.

 

[cristo]

Wow! I don't know which part I'm more surprised about, that the mother called the police in the first place, or that the police officer tasered the child. Either way, if I was the father, I'd be lobbying for sole custody immediately!

 

[Pattonias]

Well so much for his career. At least he did this as opposed to shooting her... I bet Whatshername will probably not argue with her mother about taking a shower before bed though.

 

[drankin]

Shocking!

This is what happens if you don't beat them at an earlier age, you have to taze them.

 

[Borek]

At least he did this as opposed to shooting her...

For obvious reasons ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dziekański_Taser_incident ) tasers don't have a good opinion in Poland.

 

[waht]

Bradshaw's report said the girl screamed, kicked and resisted any time her mother tried to get her in the shower before bed.

"Her mother told me to tase her if I needed to," Bradshaw wrote.

The child was "violently kicking and verbally combative" when Bradshaw tried to take her into custody, and she kicked him in the groin. So he delivered "a very brief drive stun to her back," the report said.

on top of that

Noggle said the girl will face disorderly conduct charges as a juvenile in the incident.

 

[Pattonias]

For obvious reasons ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dziekański_Taser_incident ) tasers don't have a good opinion in Poland.

I bet you anything that this was caused by the use of two tasers at one time. All it takes is for the charge to cross your heart and it can stop. All these men should have been charged. I can't believe they did not provide CPR or get a defibrillator, both of which would, most likely, have revived him. I think there should have been talk of manslaughter charges.

Proper training is required as to when and how a taser should be used. I don't have any problem with tasers as a alternative to shooting or blunt force trauma, but when you are stupid or reckless this kind of thing can happen.

What happened to self-defense training to arrest an unarmed man? these were all grown men. Surely they can subdue one unruly individual without using a taser 4 times.

 

[DanP]

What happened to self-defense training to arrest an unarmed man? these were all grown men. Surely they can subdue one unruly individual without using a taser 4 times.

Why use a compliance lock when you have the possibility to release the beast in you legally and cause pain and death ? I bet the policeman find it very funny to taser ppl.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Oh, he used a stun gun. I thought the prongs came out, stuck in her and shocked her. That would be a lot worse.
Still, if the mother used a stun gun on her child, she'd go to jail for child abuse. Somehow cops are exempt from that.

 

[mgb_phys]

For obvious reasons ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dziekański_Taser_incident ) tasers don't have a good opinion in Poland.

 

[lawtonfogle]

http://news.aol.com/article/ozark-police-officer-dustin-bradshaw/772708

Mom calling police to unruly 10 yo girl? This is ridiculous. Perhaps less ridiculous than handcuffed kindergarten kid several years ago, but still idiotic.

While it sounds like he was acting stupid, what was the chance he was scared of being hit with a sexual abuse charge if he restrained her physically? Are police in the area immune to such things if done as part of their job?

 

[NeoDevin]

There is another risk of him seriously injuring her while she struggled if he physically restrained her. My assumption is that, in the situation he was in, he had no choice but to take the child into custody (to be placed with social services, or whatever the local equivalent is). Once this decision has been made, some method of restraining her was necessary. It was his assessment that it was less risky to use the taser than to physically restrain her. Had he tried to handcuff her while she struggled, he could have ended up breaking her arm, and then we'd have a thread on here about how a police officer broke the arm of a 10 year old girl, instead of tasered.

I think he was in an impossible situation, and had to make a decision. The blame more properly lies with the mother (and possibly the father, since we don't have any back-story), for doing such a poor job raising her child that it got to the point where she felt she had to call the police in the first place.

 

[Evo]

Calling the police because your kid won't take a shower? Why didn't the mother use some common sense and back off? Obviously she was only making matters with the child worse. If she had half a brain, she would have let the kid calm down and go to bed and then scheduled her and her daughter for counseling and sounds like she could use some parenting classes.

Maybe in hindsight the officer should have just left the scene. The child wasn't attacking the mother from what the article says. The child was on the floor not harming herself or the mother. Why was the officer trying to take her into custody? This makes no sense.

 

[dlgoff]

I wonder how the mother would be feeling if the tassing had killed the girl? Would she be held responsible for manslaughter?

 

[Evo]

I wonder how the mother would be feeling if the tassing had killed the girl? Would she be held responsible for manslaughter?

I think he should have tased the mother.

 

[dlgoff]

I think he should have tased the mother.

Yea. This kind of stuff really pisses me off. In my opinion the kid would be better off if the mother WAS tassed and left for dead.

 

[Dembadon]

... what was the chance he was scared of being hit with a sexual abuse charge if he restrained her physically? ...

0%. Here's why:

Sexual abuse is defined as a sex act* committed by one person by force on another person, or against that other person's will.

*A sex act occurs when one person’s genitals touch another person’s mouth or genitals, or when a substitute for a person’s genitals, such as fingers or an object, touches another person’s genitals.



In my opinion, it is absolutely ridiculous to taser a child. Terrible conflict resolution skills demonstrated by both parties.

 

[rootX]

Maybe in hindsight the officer should have just left the scene. The child wasn't attacking the mother from what the article says. The child was on the floor not harming herself or the mother. Why was the officer trying to take her into custody? This makes no sense.

I am not sure if the officer was required to stop the girl..

According to a report by Officer Dustin Bradshaw, obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press, police were called to the Ozark home Nov. 11 because of a domestic disturbance. When he arrived, the girl was curled up on the floor, screaming, the report said.

The child was "violently kicking and verbally combative" when Bradshaw tried to take her into custody, and she kicked him in the groin. So he delivered "a very brief drive stun to her back," the report said.

but unruly children are just pain in the a**.
(Last incident was when officer kicked/slapped/punched a 18 yrs old girl inside the jail under camera. So, I guess they haven't really determined how to deal with the kids)

 

[Sorry!]

It must have been the mothers decision to take the child into custody. I'm pretty sure on domestic disturbance calls and there's a fight that's how it works. They see what the problem is and try and resolve it on scene. Normally it involves fighting spouses though and the female will say that they want to press charges or not as well they might just say the want them removed.

So him being called for this wasn't his fault... and taking her into custody that's not his fault either (I don't think at least.) He did get kicked in the groin apparently and maybe that aggravted him into using the taser. I do not think that it was necessary at all it would be like he spray pepper spray into her eyes or put her into a police hold (like the one with your arm behind your back... hurts A LOT).

I mean like this man is trained to be able to take down criminals who sometimes may be larger than himself and he couldn't subdue a 10 year old child? Really... seems far fetched. I don't think he should be held solely responsible however they should review their training of use of tasers and when is proper times to use them. Possibly even add min/max ages that they can be used against.

A friend of mine who just finished police foundations said to me that the use of tasers is only like 1 step away from lethal force on the force continuum. I looked it up and it seems he was correct.

Less-lethal weapons are valuable when: Lethal force is not appropriate. Lethal force is justified and available for backup but lesser force may subdue the aggressor. Lethal force is justified but its use could cause collateral effects, such as injury to bystanders or life-threatening damage to property and environment.

A taser can be classified as a 'less lethal' use of force. What this means is that the officer is using this instead of pulling out their gun and shooting.
This definition of a taser comes from:
http://www.less-lethal.org/web/definitions.aspx

All police officers in Ontario must have basic training in use of force. The Ontario Use of Force Model (2004) directs that officers shall continuously assess each encounter and select the most reasonable option for action, relative to the circumstance.8 The use of force continuum provides guidelines to incremental increases in use of force. The five stages of the continuum are: officer presence, verbal communication, physical control, intermediate weapons (using non-lethal chemical, electronic or impact weapons on an individual) and lethal force (using any force likely to cause permanent injury or death).

Comes from:http://www.ontario.cmha.ca/policy_positions.asp?cID=25628

Yes I understand Ontario is different than the states but the use of force continuum used in most states is the same as the one in Ontario.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

0%. Here's why:

Sexual abuse is defined as a sex act* committed by one person by force on another person, or against that other person's will.

*A sex act occurs when one person’s genitals touch another person’s mouth or genitals, or when a substitute for a person’s genitals, such as fingers or an object, touches another person’s genitals.

It all depends on the area and their laws. I actually had a co-worker who went to the police academy and was training to be an officer who was completely let loose and barred from consideration after he improperly handled a female juvenile during a ride along. Where I live it is nearly always necessary for a female officer to handle female suspects and detainees.

I mean like this man is trained to be able to take down criminals who sometimes may be larger than himself and he couldn't subdue a 10 year old child? Really... seems far fetched.

Would you use the same techniques to restrain a 10 year old girl that you were trained to use on full grown adults?


Not that he should have used a stun gun on her though. Its really hard to say just what he should have done since we weren't there and, I at least, don't know the laws and policies in the area.

 

[Hurkyl]

What are the risks (injury or otherwise) of the officer physically subduing the girl?

Any criticism of taser use is completely meaningless without such a comparison.

 

[WaveJumper]

What are the risks (injury or otherwise) of the officer physically subduing the girl?

Any criticism of taser use is completely meaningless without such a comparison.

Risks? This is a child and girl at that. This can't be serious, unless the officer was drunk. Police officers in most countries don't carry taser guns and they do just fine. If the US is not a police state, this parody of a police officer should be sued. I just read about this case in a local newspaper here in Bulgaria. You can imagine why this attracts so much attention the world over. Here is the article:

http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=285887

 

[Hurkyl]

Risks? This is a child and girl at that.

So what?

 

[DanP]

What are the risks (injury or otherwise) of the officer physically subduing the girl?

Any criticism of taser use is completely meaningless without such a comparison.

The only risks I can imagine for the officer are:

1. There exists a strong suspicion that the girl is carrying a deadly contagious agent. Think HIV. This might have been communicated to him by the girl's mother. It doesn't worth the risk to subdue manually even a 10 years old in this case. A bite and your potentially ****ed.

2. The girl was wielding a fire-weapon. Maybe a misplaced gun, and so on. An edged weapon wielded by a 10 years old represent little danger to a trained professional (but I am sure others would disagree). I do not know whatever or not the little girl had weapons or not.

The risks for girl:

1. Possessing a weapon and threatening suicide. No matter the nature of weapon. In this case stunning is a very efficient way to prevent any self inflicted injuries, hence justifying the action

2. Forcing her to comply thought physical contact present no real risks for the girl.

 

[WaveJumper]

So what?

Common-sense says a police officer trained to handle thugs and hoodlums should in principle be able to handle a 10 year old child without weapons. Unless he watched too many movies and shot to become famous all over the world within 24 hours.
A police officer should also be able to handle a criminal without tasers. Tasers should be a last resort measure, i don't think this is news, unless someone wishes to be Robocop.
Or maybe he had some form of child fobia and got really scared by the girl.

 

[Hurkyl]

Common-sense says a police officer trained to handle thugs and hoodlums should in principle be able to handle a 10 year old child without weapons.

"Should be able to" does not mean "should".

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Risks? This is a child and girl at that. This can't be serious, unless the officer was drunk. Police officers in most countries don't carry taser guns and they do just fine. If the US is not a police state, this parody of a police officer should be sued. I just read about this case in a local newspaper here in Bulgaria. You can imagine why this attracts so much attention the world over. Here is the article:

http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=285887

If the officer tried to forcefully put the girl in handcuffs, he could have accidentally broken her arm or leg, Noggle said.

An officer or security guard are not to use handcuffs unless they are properly trained to do so due primarily to the possibility of doing injury to the person being cuffed.
You are right. She is a child. And due to this the potential risk of a grown man doing her injury while trying to subdue her is much higher.

The girl was apparently taken away to a youth facility. It is quite possible the mother was relinquishing custody of the child and the officer was obligated to take the child. Emotionally imbalanced children who are relinquished to the care of the state are often ridiculously difficult and a danger to themselves. Some may even seek to purposefully injure themselves in the course of being subdued. It is not at all an easy thing to deal with especially when the child is small and fragile. People who work at juvenile facilities receive special training for dealing with this sort of thing. Some police officers may receive similar training but I doubt it is required for all officers in all places.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Common-sense says a police officer trained to handle thugs and hoodlums should in principle be able to handle a 10 year old child without weapons.

Common sense says you do not handle a 10 year old girl in the same fashion as your common street thug.

 

[DanP]

"Should be able to" does not mean "should".

Sure. But in absence of a real threat, (and the only ones I can imagine are enumerated above)
this act remains a heinous crime. It is for a court of law to decide the punishment, but I would call for the maximum penalty possible under the law. We don't know enough about the case. Maybe more will be published.

The problem is, most of the cases where mandate is exceed are covered-up in the "internal investigations". The future is bleak. What's next ? Kicking a pregnant women in abdomen ?

 

[Hurkyl]

What's next ? Kicking a pregnant women in abdomen ?

How about

Local cop receives praise for subduing an increasingly violent child without injury or struggle​

?

Or more pessimistically

Cop injures 10 year old girl when physically restraining her. Mother sues for millions.​

 

[DanP]

It all depends on the area and their laws. I actually had a co-worker who went to the police academy and was training to be an officer who was completely let loose and barred from consideration after he improperly handled a female juvenile during a ride along. Where I live it is nearly always necessary for a female officer to handle female suspects and detainees.

This is one of the cases where I actually think police should have it easier. A mature female suspect is potentially almost as capable as a man in inflicting harm. I see no issues
in a male officer manhandling a women, save for the cases when the officer does unequivocally assaults her sexually during operations.

I hear in many cases certain circles in the community call for limitations of police powers. This is not a great thing IMO. Police should have all power required to efficiently handle any situation, and all the power they need to protect their own lives.

However, the cases where police officers are suspected of exceeding their mandate should be treated with maximum severity. All cases should follow the path prosecution (if deemed necessary by prosecutors) / court of law, "internal investigations" are not enough. Even if this would waste more taxpayer money, I believe it would be a very good thing.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Sure. But in absence of a real threat, (and the only ones I can imagine are enumerated above) this act remains a heinous crime.

As already noted the real threat was to the child herself. I have previously looked up information about the danger of stun guns thinking that they must be pretty bad and to my surprise I found that they are apparently incredibly safe. Aside from giving the girl a rather unpleasant experience on what basis would you call this a "heinous crime"? I personally would have found it far more distasteful to hear that two or more officers piled onto this little girl and forcibly restrained her leaving her with several bruises and possibly a dislocated shoulder.

 

[DanP]

How about

Local cop receives praise for subduing an increasingly violent child without injury or struggle​

?

You mean, Denis The Menace should be tasered ?

 

[DanP]

I personally would have found it far more distasteful to hear that two or more officers piled onto this little girl and forcibly restrained her leaving her with several bruises and possibly a dislocated shoulder.

Well, if a 27 years old anorexic psychologist which last time ate in junior year in college could restrain a kid who "attacked" her with no injuries to the little one, then surely the big cop could doit. (seen with my eyes :P)

The issue is not the safety of the stun guns. The issue is that if I, as a parent, would use a stun gun to calm my child, the government would take the child from me and prosecute me. Probably they would prosecute me even if I calm my dog with a stun gun.

This path leads to dark consequences. Should a doctor use a stun gun on a child who becomes hysterical because he is afraid of the needle which delivers the H1N1 vaccine ?
Should a teacher in public schools have a stun gun holstered on the thigh, and calm the cheeky little one ? What about kindergarten ? Should 2 little ones who got in a fight be stunned ?

 

[martharon]

very shocking to see it.
i wonder whom to be penalized either the mother or the police officer. or both of them.

 

[Hurkyl]

This path leads to dark consequences.

You can slippery slope the other way too. If we object to stun guns, then what next? Do we object to handcuffs? Any use of physical force at all?

The solution? Don't jump down a slippery slope. Find an appropriate position, rather than a hysterical one.

 

[DanP]

You can slippery slope the other way too. If we object to stun guns, then what next? Do we object to handcuffs? Any use of physical force at all?

The solution? Don't jump down a slippery slope. Find an appropriate position, rather than a hysterical one.

I personally don't even object to lethal force, if mandated. A dead criminal is one less worry for the society and saves taxpayers money. I won't even blink.

That being said, there are a lot of cases where use of force means exceeding the mandate. As I said, the solution IMO to all those issues with police brutality (whatever imaginary or real, on a case by case basis) is transparency in investigation, equity and harsh penal sentences in the cases where mandate is exceed.

 

[WaveJumper]

You can slippery slope the other way too. If we object to stun guns, then what next? Do we object to handcuffs? Any use of physical force at all?

The solution? Don't jump down a slippery slope. Find an appropriate position, rather than a hysterical one.

You are aware that this police-can-taser-10y.o.-girls attitude is making the headlines from UK, through Bulgaria, to Papua New Guinea? I can't imagine you desire your police to be regarded as idiots, who can't restrain a child unless they electrocute them. What a senseless act, and senseless arguments about bruises, scrathces, disjointed elbows, broken legs,etc.

Last i checked a Polish immigrant was killed at one of your airports by a policeman who used taser gun. There is a video on youtube.



There is one more death from 6 months ago:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7145313

 

[WaveJumper]

As already noted the real threat was to the child herself. I have previously looked up information about the danger of stun guns thinking that they must be pretty bad and to my surprise I found that they are apparently incredibly safe.

So incredibly safe, that an adult male was killed. Talk about safety and police brutality.

BTW, electrocuting is a form of punishment, it is not up to a high school educated officer to hand out punishment. This isn't how justice works and at least in Europe, this police officer would have been detained.

What if the 10 year old girl had heart problems? What kind of treatment is this and how can this be acceptable?

 

[Pattonias]

So incredibly safe, that an adult male was killed. Talk about safety and police brutality.

BTW, electrocuting is a form of punishment, it is not up to a high school educated officer to hand out punishment. This isn't how justice works and at least in Europe, this police officer would have been detained.

What if the 10 year old girl had heart problems? What kind of treatment is this and how can this be acceptable?

The adult male was killed due to a chain of events that culminated in the taser stopping his heart, but I don't think you can blame it solely on the taser itself. When the officers used more than a single taser they most likely caused the charge to cross his heart stopping it. They then did not use CPR or one of the numerous deliberators in most every airport I've been to to revive him. This death was due to the negligence of the officers.

In the case of the little girl, his education should have little to do with it. A college trained idiot is just as capable of messing up as a high school one. The police department is supposed to train its officers to handle domestic disputes just like this one.

The family should not be able to charge the officer as the mother gave him permission to use the taser. The police department should punish the officer for acting stupidly. The department should also spend a lot more time training their officers in the proper use of the taser. The taser should be considered an alternative to drawing a gun. Not as an alternative for physical contact, especially with a 10 year old girl.

 

[DanP]

BTW, electrocuting is a form of punishment, it is not up to a high school educated officer to hand out punishment. This isn't how justice works and at least in Europe, this police officer would have been detained.

Law enforcers does not apply punishment. Courts of law do. However, LEO mandate allows him use of weapons, including lethal force, in specific situations. We can't deny the law enforcer the right to defend himself against criminals, nor the use of weapons in situations where suspect violently resist apprehension. This is not a form of punishment. The main purpose of law enforcement is to apprehend criminals.

The problem only exists when the policeman exceeds its mandate, effectively stepping outside the law. And education level doesn't really belong in this thread. We don't need to feel superior only because a college, a Phd or whatever. This job aint easy.

In this case the data presented points towards a case of police brutality. But I would feel better if I knew more details before making my mind.

 

[DanP]

However this is ridiculous:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...gun-to-subdue-10-year-old-girl-suspended.html

QUOTE
********************************************
But Police Chief Jim Noggle said on Wednesday that Taser stun guns are a safe way to subdue people who are a danger to themselves or others.
"We didn't use the Taser to punish the child - just to bring the child under control so she wouldn't hurt herself or somebody else," Mr Noggle said.
Had the officer tried to forcefully put the girl in handcuffs, he could have accidentally broken her arm or leg, Mr Noggle said.
Mr Noggle said the girl will face disorderly conduct charges as a juvenile
*******************************************

It appears that the commissioner is already trying to save face and proceed with cover-ups.
Too many excuses before the investigation was completed, and a direct attack, stating that the girl will have to face criminal charges.

This kind of behavior is always suspicious to me.

 

[Pattonias]

I think this may be more complicated than we can speculate on with these short news snippets.

 

[DanP]

I think this may be more complicated than we can speculate on with these short news snippets.

Yes, but I have yet to see a police chief saying:

"We will investigate the event with all seriousness and if the officer is found guilty he will be severely punished"

instead the weasel says:

"We will investigate the incident. What I can tell you for now is that the emotionally unstable 10 years old which our department tased will have to face additional emotional stress because we decided to press criminal charges against her. We really don't care about her and her well being .. This is a message to all you idiots who try to oppose the might of my force"

 

[ideasrule]

Forget handcuffs or piling up on the child. I can (and have) physically restrained a hysterical child (<12 years old) without injuring either him or myself, and I'm well-known for being physically weak. Maybe the police department should fire those idiots and hire me instead?

 

[Moonbear]

I think as soon as the mom suggested tasering the child because she was throwing a tantrum about taking a shower, the mom should have been hauled off for child abuse charges. Clearly, there is a parenting problem if a mother feels she needs to call cops to handle a 10 year old's tantrum about taking a shower...or even that a 10 year old is throwing a tantrum about taking a shower.

If it really wasn't a parenting issue but that the child really does react unusually violently, then the mother shouldn't be calling a cop but a psychiatrist.

The appropriate response to a kid throwing herself on the floor kicking and screaming about a shower is to leave her on the floor kicking and screaming until she realizes it isn't getting her anywhere. Go do the laundry and dishes and let everyone else in the house shower first and leave her with cold water for the shower, then remind her that if she hadn't stalled so much and took her shower when told, she would have had hot water for her shower. When I was a kid, it didn't take long before we figured out that stalling at shower time meant we got the last shower without much hot water, and started fighting for the first shower instead.

 

[Moonbear]

Forget handcuffs or piling up on the child. I can (and have) physically restrained a hysterical child (<12 years old) without injuring either him or myself, and I'm well-known for being physically weak. Maybe the police department should fire those idiots and hire me instead?

I have done so too, when one of my step-nephews was getting completely out of hand and the other older kids were getting ready to clobber him. Since he was the antagonist, I told him to go to another room by himself until everyone cooled down and he straightened out his behavior (and for his own safety to separate him from his older brother and cousins who I would not have been able to stop from ganging up on him if they finally got pushed over the limit they were getting close to). When he thought he wasn't going to listen and was going to keep terrorizing the older kids, I just held him while he was kicking and screaming. He kicked my shins a few times, but when he figured out it wasn't going to get him free and was only extending the cool-off period, he eventually calmed down and sat quietly for a little while and then behaved properly when allowed to join the other kids again, and eventually apologized for acting out.

 

[DanP]

I think as soon as the mom suggested tasering the child because she was throwing a tantrum about taking a shower, the mom should have been hauled off for child abuse charges.

This is the reason I am still waiting for new data in this case. I am interested on what could prompt two mature ppl, the mother and the cop, both agree that the child should be stunned, and proceed to execution of this plan.

Maybe there is something we don't know yet.

If there is nothing else then the "shower issue", then both the mother and the cop belong either to a prison for several months, either to an asylum, getting electroconvulsive therapy on a daily basis.

 

[Evo]

This was in a small rural area in Arkansas. It's a bit of a different world there. But my question is still why would a 10 year old lying on the floor screaming need to be arrested? The officer should have just left, or called child welfare if he thought the child needed to be removed from the home for her own safety.

 

[JasonRox]

LOL! Awesome!