Is Matter Just Another Form of Energy in E=MC²?

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The discussion centers around the relationship between matter and energy as described by Einstein's equation E=mc². Participants explore whether matter and energy are fundamentally the same or different, with some arguing that matter is energy in a bound state and can be converted into energy. The conversation highlights the complexities of interpreting mass-energy equivalence, particularly in chemical versus nuclear reactions. There is also a debate about the clarity of explanations provided by educators and the importance of understanding the criteria used to define equivalence in physics. Ultimately, the thread emphasizes the need for careful consideration of how mass and energy are conceptualized and measured in scientific contexts.
  • #61
for post 47

Blahness said:
Okay, so energy and mass are equivalent, just different forms of the same thing. I think most of us got that.

However, I came to this thread, not to hijack it, but to not make a new thread(keeps the board cleaner), since someone is already talking about this:

Why C^2? E=MC^2, but why is it the speed of light squared?

Just wondering.


I remembered seeing something about that on NOVA:



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/einstein/ance-sq.html



The 'science' behind the c^2 isn't exactly a 'eureka' moment the way it's explained in the two paragraphs (at the bottom of that page). In fact, it seems rather un-scientific. I like their terminology, " did suddenly appear " for the explanation---:-p .
 
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  • #62
Andrew Mason said:
I didn't invent the concept of mass-energy equivalence. When you add energy to an electron traveling at 0.9999999999999c the energy goes almost entirely into increasing the mass of the electron.

from the POV of the observer that the electron is whizzing past at 0.9999999999999c.

Andrew, for some reason it has become out of vogue to think in terms of relativistic mass.

E = m c^2 = E_0 + T

makes sense when m is relativistic mass and

E_0 = m_0 c^2

is rest energy (i think this is the equation most people mean when they say " E = mc2 " and T is kinetic energy (energy which depends on who is watching).

The root of the apparent difference between mass and energy is the distinction that we make between space and time. Einstein showed that space and time are observer dependent and not absolute. So if time and space are equivalent, space^2/time^2 cancel each other and mass=energy.

this equating of dimensions can, in my opinion, eventually lead to madness. so if we equate space and time (there's an arrow of time, but there is no arrow of space outside the event horizon of a black hole) that is effectively setting c = 1. that means (besides that length is the same thing as time), that

E = m c^2

becomes

E = m

and energy is the same thing (or same dimension) as mass.

why stop there? let's do like Planck and set \hbar = 1 and G = 1. so

E = \hbar \omega

becomes

E = \omega

and energy (which is the same as mass) is the same thing as frequency or 1/time. and since time is length, then mass is the same as 1/length. now

E = G \frac{M m}{r}

becomes

E = \frac{M m}{r}

so now energy (the same thing as mass) is the same as mass2 x length-1. that says the same thing that mass is the same as length.

so length = 1/length? or time = 1/time? or mass = 1/mass? all this would be true if we say that length (or space), time, or mass are all dimensionless.

so, for my money, either:

1. there is such a thing as different dimensions of physical quantity and mass is not the same as length nor is the same as time. (so energy is not dimensionally the same thing as mass.) i would also view electric charge as a fundamental dimension, but the cgs people might not.

or

2. there is no such meaningful thing as dimension of physical quantity and they are just human constructions which no deep physical correspondence.

that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
 
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  • #63
I'm really (really) surprized that there isn't some one making a comment on the origins of the c^2 (from the NOVA link-post 61).


Is the c^2 just 'accepted' ? as 'the' maximum speed possible transposed? justified from a ball in clay?
 
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  • #64
Hey everyone, thanks for the input, I really apppreciate it. It would seem that I have much more to learn on the subject.
 
  • #65
rewebster said:
I'm really (really) surprized that there isn't some one making a comment on the origins of the c^2 (from the NOVA link-post 61).


Is the c^2 just 'accepted' ? as 'the' maximum speed possible transposed? justified from a ball in clay?
That's an interesting story on the origin of the concept of energy, but it isn't all that relevant here. It seems like you think that is the entire basis for squaring velocity in any equation, including Einstein's. It is nowhere near as trivial as you are implying. It was derived mathematically for its application in E=mc^2. And it isn't "just 'accepted'", it is accepted because it is well supported by the evidence available.

Part of the mathematical derivation, on a basic level, Blahness, is that the units have to work out. Energy has the units mV^2, so that's what it has to be, whether Newtonian or relativistic. If Einstein had come up with anything else, it wouldn't have been consistent with the definition of "energy".
 
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  • #66
russ_watters said:
It seems like you think that is the entire basis for squaring velocity in any equation

no, I didn't mean that or mean to imply that

russ_watters said:
Energy has the units mV^2, so that's what it has to be, whether Newtonian or relativistic.

yes

russ_watters said:
If Einstein had come up with anything else, it wouldn't have been consistent with the definition of "energy".


This is the part of his idea of his theory that I have trouble with.


russ_watters said:
And it isn't "just 'accepted'", it is accepted because it is well supported by the evidence available.


the evidence supports his theory as long as you go "by his theory"
 
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  • #67
rewebster said:
the evidence supports his theory as long as you go "by his theory"
You've got the cart before the horse.

If there is a theory out there that better describes the evidence, we're all ears.
 
  • #68
The answer to your question can be found on this book: http://www.davidbodanis.com/books/emc2/" .

6th chapter, «2»

The post's question is why c is squared. The author, after a brief introduction about Emile du Châtelet and Voltaire introduces few reasons for c being squared. You should look up.

Good Luck.

Edit: Thanks for the correction rewebster.

You can also watch a video presentation with David Bodanis himself to learn more about the book: http://www.meettheauthor.com/bookbites/397.html
 
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  • #69
Kalouste said:
The big question is why c is squared.

Well, I don't think that's the big question. The BIG question is rather it's right or not.



Is there a 'published' theory out there?

Not that I've read that I (me, personally) discern to be 'correct' as that they (those theories) can't answer all (everyone's/most people's) concerns (from my knowledge --which would not be as great as 'x'% of the people on this forum--where 'x' is an unknown); and, of course, I haven't read them all---and someone could spend time^2 reading all (everything relating to and about physics and/or philosophy) that's out there (published, unpublished, on the web, written on napkins hidden in books).


And if you're asking the question that I (may, can) assume (induct,deduct) you're asking---that's the reason I initially found the Physics Forum.

Did that answer your question? :smile:

PS:
I guess you really didn't state it as a question, though, so...
 
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  • #70
rewebster said:
Well, I don't think that's the big question. The BIG question is rather it's right or not.
It is not whether it is right or wrong in the sense of being a true description of physical reality. Science does not work that way. Any theory is 'correct' so long as it is consistent with all the evidence. Theories can only be disproven. They can never be proven absolutely true. One fact will destroy the most elegant theory. A gazillion facts will not make it 'absolutely true'.

All Einstein did was derive, from very few simple principles, a mathematical and conceptual model of matter and energy that, to date, is completely consistent with all physical observation. In a hundred years, no one has been able to find a fact that is inconsistent Einstein's theory.

You don't have to believe that Einstein's theory of relativity represents 'truth' or 'reality'. But it is irrational to think there is something wrong with it if you are unable to identify a fact that it is inconsistent with.

AM
 
  • #71
Andrew Mason said:
It is not whether it is right or wrong in the sense of being a true description of physical reality. Science does not work that way. Any theory is 'correct' so long as it is consistent with all the evidence. Theories can only be disproven. They can never be proven absolutely true. One fact will destroy the most elegant theory. A gazillion facts will not make it 'absolutely true'.AM

yes---and I think I've read something like that before someplace


Andrew Mason said:
All Einstein did was derive, from very few simple principles, a mathematical and conceptual model of matter and energy that, to date, is completely consistent with all physical observation. In a hundred years, no one has been able to find a fact that is inconsistent Einstein's theory.

You don't have to believe that Einstein's theory of relativity represents 'truth' or 'reality'. But it is irrational to think there is something wrong with it if you are unable to identify a fact that it is inconsistent with.
AM



but if this were true, then there would not have been any reasons why Quantum Physics and all of its derivatives would have come about.




There are inconsistencies.
 
  • #72
rewebster said:
but if this were true, then there would not have been any reasons why Quantum Physics and all of its derivatives would have come about.

Er... say what?

There are inconsistencies.

What are they?

Zz.
 
  • #73
the actions/interactions around and in the atom
 
  • #74
rewebster said:
the actions/interactions around and in the atom

.. and how is this inconsistent with anything? And please, make a complete description of it and show the citation that you are basing this claim on, keeping in mind our guidelines.

Zz.
 
  • #75
rewebster said:
This is the part of his idea of his theory that I have trouble with.
Please explain - what is the problem?
the evidence supports his theory as long as you go "by his theory"
Huh? What other way is there to test his theory? You can't count ducks at a pond and say the number of ducks isn't what Einstein predicted in Relativity - to test relativity, you have to test relativity. That tautology is pretty basic.
The BIG question is rather it's right or not.
And how does science figure out if it is right or not?

Honestly, you're not being real clear/specific on what the issue you have with Relativity is: it just seems like some vague discomfort with the theory's implications.
but if this were true, then there would not have been any reasons why Quantum Physics and all of its derivatives would have come about.
You do understand that Relativity and QM describe two different things, right? QM wasn't created to correct Relativity, it addresses issues outside the scope of Relativity.
 
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  • #76
I'm not saying there are not inconsistencies with QM (a theory too), either-

-but isn't that why the two theories exist, and they can't be totally and successfully entwined? Don't both have inconsistencies and are not completely compatible?----for their own varies reasons of inconsistency and are not combined because of their incompatibility.
 
  • #77
I hate it when I have a message typed and I've been 'timed' out and lose my response. (I know---put a check in the 'remember me' next time)
 
  • #78
rewebster said:
-but isn't that why the two theories exist, and they can't be totally and successfully entwined? Don't both have inconsistencies and are not completely compatible?----for their own varies reasons of inconsistency and are not combined because of their incompatibility.
No. It isn't that they are incompatible or inconsistent. They are two different theories that discuss two different things. Scientists would like to combine them into a single "theory of everything", but for the moment, both work just fine in their separate domains of applicability.

It is starting to sound like like you have heard vague objections to the theories and because of that you think there are problems with them...but you don't know what those problems are. That's why you are not explaining what you think the problems are. Am I correct?
 
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  • #79
russ_watters said:
Please explain - what is the problem?

Huh? What other way is there to test his theory? You can't count ducks at a pond and say the number of ducks isn't what Einstein predicted in Relativity - to test relativity, you have to test relativity. That tautology is pretty basic.


And how does science figure out if it is right or not?

Honestly, you're not being real clear/specific on what the issue you have with Relativity is: it just seems like some vague discomfort with the theory's implications.


You do understand that Relativity and QM describe two different things, right? QM wasn't created to correct Relativity, it addresses issues outside the scope of Relativity.



A lot of people have a problem with it (SR). Those who use it or have to use it accept it as what it is. They are people who are all the way up and down the Bell curve for their admiration of it, and a separate curve who think there's something wrong with it to 'its perfect'. MY problem is that I don't think its right (from my own reasons which I can't discuss on the forum).


As far as testing his theory, it depends on what you have in mind before you start testing. Is someone 'testing his theory' or are they doing a test 'looking for' results to prove or disprove his theory? In other words, would this test be done if his theory wasn't even known and how would the results be interpreted? How would the results fit in anywhere (in any theory)? (and yes, I know its one of the best theories we have---and, yes, the other 'best theory we have' is quantum based).


(started that at 2:30 --with interruptions-finished 2:57)


They are two different things trying to explain all/most of the same things. They both have similarities and both have been built on the same foundations. Would SR been the same if quantum would have been put out twenty years earlier, say 1885? I never said they were the same. And yes, wouldn't it be great if they were combined?
 
  • #80
Um... we have a very successful theory that combines special relativity and quantum mechanics. It's called Quantum Electrodynamics.
 
  • #81
----it may do a better job -- (from what I've read)--but is it 'right' ?

but, does it explain everything? I know people have to use 'something' and hopefully the 'best'.
 
  • #82
jtbell said:
Um... we have a very successful theory that combines special relativity and quantum mechanics. It's called Quantum Electrodynamics.

:smile: I needed a :smile:


jtbell:

OK---from 1% to 100% , where would you fit QED on the ' it's right ' scale?

(not the "it's the one I use" scale)
 
  • #83
rewebster said:
I'm not saying there are not inconsistencies with QM (a theory too), either-

-but isn't that why the two theories exist, and they can't be totally and successfully entwined? Don't both have inconsistencies and are not completely compatible?----for their own varies reasons of inconsistency and are not combined because of their incompatibility.

What EXACTLY is incompatible here? SR has been incorporated inside of QM. That is why we have QFT/QED/Dirac equation, etc.

So I am still waiting for this inconsistency here. Point out exactly and explicitly where SR and QM don't agree. You are verging on crackpottery here.

Zz.
 
  • #84
Mostly, I'm just questioning the validity of theories.

It seems from the amount of theories and postulates to those theories to "correct" them, that the right explanation still doesn't exist. It seems like that's the reason for many experiments (gravity wave, the CERN labs, etc.). We don't know yet and we want to know more. If we have QFT/QED/Dirac equation, etc., why is there a MWI?

Is it wrong to question why we have to have so many postulates to theories to 'correct' them (just thinking about Occam's razor)?

I haven't found any thing in SR to explain electricity. -maybe there is.
 
  • #85
rewebster said:
Mostly, I'm just questioning the validity of theories.

It seems from the amount of theories and postulates to those theories to "correct" them, that the right explanation still doesn't exist. It seems like that's the reason for many experiments (gravity wave, the CERN labs, etc.). We don't know yet and we want to know more. If we have QFT/QED/Dirac equation, etc., why is there a MWI?

Is it wrong to question why we have to have so many postulates to theories to 'correct' them (just thinking about Occam's razor)?

I haven't found any thing in SR to explain electricity. -maybe there is.

1. You are confusing the FORMALISM with INTERPRETATION!

2. You are confusing your ignorance of the subject matter to mean there's no explanation.

3. You are confusing your ignorance of the empirical evidence to mean something isn't valid.

4. There is a difference between questioning something based on VALID evidence, either logically or experimentally, versus questioning it by throwing out random phrases without undrestanding what they mean.

This thread is done, thanks to your hijacking of it.

Zz.
 

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