Is Memory the Key to Disproving the Existence of God?

[Moonrat]

No. God does not need memory. Would you also suggest that to have a personality God needs a brain?

Hope no one minds if I jump in here, but there are a few mistakes made in the 'logic' that there is no God. First and foremost, I want to prefrence that God is mystery, and therefore I do not have any proof of the existence of God either, but I do have proof of the existence of mystery, which, if there is a god, she may be hiding behind that!

Now, first error in the logic is defining what attributes God must have to exist. Now, this is not objective logic but rather subjective reasoning, but even if it was objective, that still would not mean there is no proof of God, because therefore even if God had such human attributes, in an infinite universe or an infinite system, human or human like intelligence may then be the creative component and organising princaple of the universe itself.

The reasoning of intelligence is an important factor, indeed, in an infinite system, let's say humanity exists in rather large quantity, but is spread out in infinite directions and participates in creation (just like we are beginning to now in our evolution) Intelligence perhaps is this 'eternal' component that forms in life and evolves in something human like and then spreads itself out and onward (which would mean that WE are the 'memory' and biological factors of 'god')

now, THIS is a logical representation of what God 'could' be, and it fits rational thought, however, GOd is STILL mystery, and any represenation of mystery is FALSE until one has OBJECTIVE proof for all to see or come to similar conclusions...

I mean, dark matter is at the perfect and precise proportion in our universe for galaxies to form. Any less, and no galaxies, i.e no planets, i.e. no life. We don't know what the hell dark matter is, we are swimming in this sea of mystery and it is not logical to assume we have a proper definition of a source of creation based on our 'myths'...


No?


Moonrat

 

[selfAdjoint]

Several thoughts on your post, Moonrat -

The attributes ascribed to God in the alleged proof are those Christians ascribe to him, omnipotence, omniscience, etc. It's an old saying that these two attributes, plus the existence of evil in the world, generate a tension with the goodness of God. It's no answer to say God is a mystery; if he didn't want us to reason about him why did he give us reason in the first place?

Second it is true that some physicists are trying to use an "Anthropic" explanation for the fine tuning problem, but others are looking more to an evolution of universes to explain it. Science as a whole doesn't give ny evidence for God.

 

[Moonrat]

Several thoughts on your post, Moonrat -

The attributes ascribed to God in the alleged proof are those Christians ascribe to him, omnipotence, omniscience, etc.

well, they arent just Christian, they are jewish and Muslim, and American Indian, and many others. I do think that christians do tend to put the most human face on God, that is true.

omnipotentence is in all directions. Mystery too is omnidirectional and is in all directions.

It's an old saying that these two attributes, plus the existence of evil in the world, generate a tension with the goodness of God. It's no answer to say God is a mystery; if he didn't want us to reason about him why did he give us reason in the first place?

.

well, it is an honest and objective answer to say that God is Mystery, any reasoning about God without objective proof can only be belief or art. Even in the western religions God is often referred to as the 'great mystery'

it is not that we should not reason about God, it is that we 'cannot' reason about that which we do not know. we can come up with all kinds of things about what lay beyond the great mystery, but all of these ideas are just personal and subjective, which is wonderful for art, but bad for science.

To say 'God is Mystery' is the most reason we can apply to the scenario. the mind can find harmony with mystery and feel it's presence, but when it denies it is mystery, then it is participating in a false universe and not an objective one.

Second it is true that some physicists are trying to use an "Anthropic" explanation for the fine tuning problem, but others are looking more to an evolution of universes to explain it. Science as a whole doesn't give ny evidence for God

I personally think the best evidence we have for a 'higher intelligence' is DNA. I mean, DNA terraformed this whole planet from a poisonoues firey hell to what we have today.

My suggestion, which is not an original idea on my part, is that 'DNA' may be a universal constant, i.e. the intelligence that spreads and spreads...

how long before humanity can create galaxies? 1000 years? we can already create a black hole!

I don't think it is the place of science to provide proof of God, really, I don't think it can. I think it is both ART and SCIENCE which must work together on this. science cannot understand ART, and that is the clincher!


thank you for the great discussion

 

[n0n]

Ok, here's the delio people, god exists and god does not exist. symbolically god is all of existence, litterally god is the ablity to over power something, and we do that in every moment just by our selfs. The laws of physics are god they will not bend for any being, and I'm absolutely sure that Christ wasn't an exception (what kind of defiance would actually walking on water mean? I do not think that Christ would defy his belief of god as the fabric of understanding(logic).). See even with or without a god 2 consepts wall each other in, something & nothing. If god is everything then nothing cannot exist except as everything (which isn't entirely wrong). But if god is nothing then what we see becomes a separation and reduction of something, were one infinite gives rise and the sheading to nothing continues. We then become with or against something, and that is were choice is made, yes or no and their is no maybe, for maybe is the blade that kills, maybe is to the sum of nothing + & -. and so the answer in my opinnion is yes their is a god, and no their is not a god. and both are to their fullest extents of the meanings. And progression progresses.

 

[Janitor]

we can already create a black hole!- Moonrat

I would love to hear more about that. I would have said that human technology was not even close to being able to do that.

I haven't read every single post in this thread. Has anybody pointed out that a human who hears a literal Voice Of God in her head can be 100 percent sure of the existence of God?

Those around her may make the claim that she is schizophrenic or whatever, but if she herself is unaware of any brain malfunctions that she may be having, she will surely feel justified in her certainty of God's existence.

Years ago I heard a radio preacher recount his experience of conversing with a certain Christian woman. He says that in the middle of conversation she interrupted herself, gazed upward, and said, "What Lord? Oh yes, I will do that. Thank you Lord."

Another radio preacher--if I recall his name was something like Andrew Wommack--told of being in a church service that was taking place concurrently with a World Series baseball game. The preacher in that service told the audience that God had just revealed to him that so-and-so had just hit a three-run home run in the bottom of the sixth and that it made the score such-and-such. The radio preacher said that after the service, when he got a chance to read about the game in the newspaper, that very thing had indeed happened.

 

[Deca-of-CD]

Janitor:

Ever heard of small, hand-held portable radios with little ear bud headphones? ...

And technology is not up to par to create a black hole, moonrat...not even close..

 

[Janitor]

Ever heard of small, hand-held portable radios with little ear bud headphones? ...- Deca-of-CD

Yes indeed! There was a televangelist named Peter Popoff who got caught doing something like that. He would have his ushers pass out questionnaire forms before the service. Visitors would fill them out and hand them back. During the service, Popoff would get the information sent to him by his wife, who had a radio transmitter with her in another room of the church. It was all very impressive, until a skeptic figured out how it probably worked, and then used a scanner to find the right frequency and made a recording of the wife. I remember one of the things he taped her saying was, "If you can't hear me, you're in big trouble..."

 

[Deca-of-CD]

Exactly. Therefore, religion is bah...

I mean..that's like me saying "God has just told me that...the news is on channel 5 right now" at Noon, when indeed there is a 30 minute news broadcast

 

[TsunamiJoe]

well technically no one actually hears god, god doesn't have a voice. If the person isn't mentally ill and actually does here a voice it is of a certain angel (whose name escapes me right now) that is saying it. His name might be micheal?? But his offical title is the "Voice of God"

 

[Janitor]

technically no one actually hears god, god doesn't have a voice. If the person isn't mentally ill and actually does here a voice it is of a certain angel... -TsunamiJoe

Maybe you can find Biblical support for that position. There were a few in the Protestant Church I went to as a kid who told matter-of-factly about how God instructed them to do this or that specific thing. They never said, "An angel told me..." It was always, "The Lord told me..." or "God told me..." And preachers started many a sermon with the words, "The Lord laid it on my heart this week to speak on the topic of..." In general, I have noticed that as compared to Catholics, Protestants downplay angels, saints, and Mary, but maybe refer more to Satan.

 

[Janitor]

Five minutes ago Trinity Broadcasting TV ran a clip of Matt Crouch--I believe he is the son of the hosts Paul and Jan Crouch--saying, "The Lord told me, in my car, 'I will choose anyone, at any time, to...' " That is an exact quote. So there are people out there who believe, or at least talk as though they believe, that God speaks directly to them with an audible voice in their head.

 

[TsunamiJoe]

ok well

gabriel - messanger of god
angel of death - angel who comes to you when you die (obviously)

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Ok, here's the delio people, god exists and god does not exist.

Whoa superposition on a macro-scopic level? You've just successfully combined
Quantum mechanics with General Relativity. :p
(( that was an old post, i know :-/ ))

 

[Janitor]

So maybe they are mistaking Gabriel's voice for the Lord's voice.

What then is Michael famous for?

 

[n0n]

Why should anything exist any more then it does not exist? This is the combined philosophical study of life to the existing of life. Is their a universalness of it? God is a philosophical question, because and only because, if god is complete understanding then god is logic, so then we ask why does logic exist? and science turns to philosophy and asks "why do we understand?", and philosophy responds with "to be or not to be?".

QMGR cannot be defined as simply as a void concept (can it even define void period?), because QMGR isn't based within nothing but around that which observably exists, and hence why god exists and god does not exist "could define QMGR in a very very basic way".

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Ooooooookkkaaaaaaaaaaaaay...anyway, its either a yes or no, God either exists or doesn't and if your talking about QM then those who believe obviously have a reason, Eg. the superposition of waves has collapsed in their live and they KNOW that God is real. Note also: I am talking about God, not god.

 

[TsunamiJoe]

ok redo this -

michael=messanger
gabriel=destructor (he destroyed an entire invading force furing the night while joshua and his army was asleep in the city)

michael pronounced jesus' apparent birth witht he angels, he talked to zacharius, virtually anything you hear that is actually from god, is michael

 

[Janitor]

Thanks for clarifying, Tsunami.

I remember back in the 1980s that Rev. Oral Roberts, a famous faith healer, spoke to a 900-foot-tall Jesus who informed Brother Roberts that he would be "called home" to Heaven if he failed to raise sufficient money for his medical center in Tulsa. No mention of Michael was made.

 

[n0n]

Ha, right. I see, we who think of physical existence are crazy. And yet we who think of physical existence think, we who think God exists are crazy. This is called duality and hence god exists and does not exist. Don't overlook the obviousness of existence. The ideology of god,which is a good one, is not all correct and again why god exists and does not exist. people being talked to by a rock is a little much but whatever, not all beings are stable nor are they expected to be (proof). funny I remember a case were some mother killed 2 of here children and beaten one close to death all cause she honestly thought god told her to do so, and that was like about 3 months ago maybe less. note: she was classified insane. and gelsamel epsilon explain god in zero, then tell me it's either yes or no, and not both. God is an easy escape(exactly the opposite of what religion tell's people), if you cannot forgive your own sins(are you able to ask for forgiveness from the person you did wrong to, and not just ask oh god forgive me form stealing their "VCR" for crack, I'm so bad. then do it a day later) then uh, your going to feel guilty(na, they just wouldn't care(proof of a positive from religion)), if you are not happy with your life and you don't want to change it then uh, your not going to be happy any time soon. that is both god and false hope, and that is exist and not exist. was Shakespeare wrong to say "to be or not to be", god/Christ/religion couldn't even come up with anything as genius as that. now you might have some guy who can relate stories to it but who gives a ____ , you can relate anything to anything else. pray to your idols for they are the god(worship it, pray to it, give it money, only it can save you, only it can heal you) you put before god(true existence, physical existence, imaginative existence,philosophy, science). that is the difference between sane and insane were do you stand? that is the difference from one who will accent into a heaven if it exists, and one who will go to hell because they do not understand the ways of God, Which teaches and so we must learn and that is what we do, not ask for affirmations of how great gods power is, but to just seek existence as its affirmation of power and we must learn it to be closer to God, that is the genius of God, not the ploy of marketing it. And that's why you don't ever see billboards of scientific proof, but billboards with words of "God", ie."god loves you". because its a brain washer with good morals and a marketing strategy to keep you as their lap dogs. And this is the only way to deal with dualities and explaining both halves of such ideals. Yes and no, for that is the only way a choice can be made we must have the option of either to exist.

 

[shrumeo]

wow, i have seen some pointless discussions in this forum
but this one wins for highest BS ratio
that is (the number of words)/(actually saying anything)

 

[shrumeo]

Oh, yeah

remember M.C. 900-foot Jesus ?
good videos at least

 

[Janitor]

I guess I missed the video.

 

[Mark]

Trying to say that God doesn't exist, is like trying to say that physics doesn't exist, it is an argument that you can never win, no matter how many people help. Please put your minds to more productive matters that trying trying to prove that which no humans can prove.

 

[Janitor]

By the way-

This website link will give an inkling of why I find Trinity Broadcasting TV so addictive:

http://www.myfortress.org/FALSETEACHERS.html

 

[n0n]

Guess what, of course it was a point less post look at what were talking about. god is a pointless question & answer. Its the exact same as: if all = god then all = all and that cannot explain anything but all; if all = car then all cannot explain anything but all, and does not explain the physics of a car (combustion ratios, timing of crank shaft to cam heads to pistons to alternator to battery to solenoid to distributor cap to blah blah blah . just a generalized version of car becomes all. And its as simple as that, we as humans have to overcome or lack of fore site, and god does not allow that. hence again why god exist and god doesn't exist, because it is a concept, it might not be a conscious concept, but its a truthful and unfulfilling concept. btw, I seen some one parachute off the 900 ft Jesus. I wonder if science will ever over power such an idol?

PS. shrumeo, at least it made sense word for word which is more then i can say for half the people writing anything in any forum, just blearting out some random answer of "yes its this" or "no its that" , with no reasons why, that is not a discussion but an infringement or a industrialized commercial. And if the complexity of a god can be contained within 3 words tell me what do we gain that we haven't already known the options for, for the past 10,000 years?

 

[Janitor]

I seen some one parachute off the 900 ft Jesus. - n0n

Could that have been the big statue near Rio de Janiero? I don't know that it is 900 feet tall in and of itself, but it is on top of a needle-like rock as I recall from seeing pictures.

 

[TsunamiJoe]

n0n wow i got less then half way through your post and stopped reading...you need to section your stuff up so that people know when you change points...if it even had a point in it...

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Non, your an Agnostic, and Agnostics are people who "don't know" so you can just shut up! xD

This should have ended ages ago, when I said that no one was going to change anyones minds.

 

[selfAdjoint]

If you think the thread should end, the best thing you can do is not post on it. A thread does not have to have a winner or loser to be an enjoyable and enlightenining conversation.

 

[TsunamiJoe]

this really isn't about whos right or wrong, its just about trying to come to a mutual ending on what could be the possible answer