Is my view of Theoretical physics romanticized?

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A final year high school student is reconsidering a career in Mathematics and Theoretical Physics after realizing they lack the expected passion and aptitude for pure mathematics. They express disappointment in the disparity between the romanticized view of these fields and the actual rigorous work involved, feeling misled by popular science literature. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding foundational concepts before engaging with advanced theories, emphasizing that significant discoveries require extensive effort and often lead to dead ends. Participants suggest pursuing a dual focus in mathematics and physics during college, while also engaging in research to gauge true interest. Ultimately, the conversation reflects on the challenges and realities of academic careers in these disciplines.
  • #31
Our Physics 20 curriculum is:
A: Kinematics
B: Dynamics
C: Circular Motion, Work and Energy
D: Oscillatory Motion & Mechanical Waves

and our Physics 30 curriculum is:
A: Momentum and Impulse
B: Forces & Fields
C: Electromagnetic Radiation
D: Atomic Physics
 
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  • #32
It's the same at my high school, although they took out Atomic Physics, I'm not sure why though. One of the grade 12 teachers said she's afraid to have me in her class, she says I'm going to stand her up and prove her wrong. I wouldn't do that but when I know the teacher did something wrong I'd tell them later. For instance my Chemistry teacher was trying to explain the Strong Interaction and wasn't clear which was fine, but my grade 10 chemistry teacher said that atomic nuclei stay together because their massive. I felt like walking out of the class. I can't wait to get to University!
 
  • #33
lol year 1 means 7 years old.

I could do calculus at age 15 (which is pretty late as far as i am concerned)

Here in Australia our physics course sucks but mathematics is ok in high school.
 
  • #34
Philosopher_k said:
Hey guys. I am a final year high school student and have lately been researching a career in Mathematics/Theoretical physics.

Don't try to plan things out just yet. Go to college, do some undergraduate research. If you like it, keep dong it. If you don't, then find something else to do.

I had this view that mathematicians sat around and had massive eureka moments (like Archimedes), solving problems such as fermats last theorem, or Poincare’s conjecture with flashes of genius.

Those do come from time to time, but I've found that most of my Eureka moments end up being false alarms. Just last week, I thought I figured out how to solve this problem that I was spending weeks looking at. I took a look at the problem, and I told the person next to me that I'm going to have lunch now, and enjoy this good feeling, because there is a good chance that I'll go to lunch, come back, figure out that I made a mistake, and that I really didn't solve the problem.

Which is what more or less happened...

Also you do have flashes of insight, but those are mixed in with slow, grinding work.

Yet when i look at the actual proofs just noted, i am struck by just how different my perceptions are. For example Wiles' proof is something like 150 pages long and filled with long definition/lemma/proof style formatting.

That's mathematics. Physics, even theoretical physics, is quite different. Physicists generally don't care about proofs. And a lot of theoretical physics are things like "if we assume that Y = alpha * X, then we can come up with something that we can calculate."

After all what could be cooler than discovering a theory about dimensions, tiny strings, other universes or time itself.

Except that more often than not you'll quickly find out that your brilliant idea just doesn't work. Personally, I prefer creating models for things that I can see. Like fire.

The field was all about Gauges, Metric spaces and Eigenvectors, whatsmore the questions were not as philosophical as i enjoyed, no answers to the mystery’s of time or how the universe came into being, more about how abstract mathematics was perceived to fit in with reality.

Which is pretty cool. If it were easy to figure out the mysteries of the universe, it wouldn't be nearly that interesting to me. Also, I like mysteries that are right in front of me. Light a match, and there are things about fire which people don't quite understand.

For years i have read popsci books by hawking, Kaku and greene, speaking about the exact things i love. Yet why is the practice of theoretical physics so different to these ideals?

Because reality is complex, and science is hard. If you just sit in a corner and try to "think out" how the universe works, you'll never figure anything out. You have data that you are trying to explain, and it takes a huge amount of effort to try to explain it.

I have tried to find this beauty but so far, no matter which college book i read, there is nothing like the excitement i felt when reading a brief history of time.

That's because a brief history of time doesn't have that much to do with what physicists do. Personally, I've found that this makes physics *more* interesting since I am more interested in building a better mousetrap than "useless philosophy about time" but that's just me.

Are the days of Einstein gone? Did the ever exist in the first place? I am so damn confused!
If i am right, then what the hell do i do with my life?

I think they never existed, and the problem is that reading Stephen Hawking gives you a very warped idea of what physicists really do.
 
  • #35
Philosopher_k said:
The beautiful thing i like about mathematics is that it requires no experiments (beside thought experiments), and it is logically self coherent.

Maybe. Read Godel, Escher, Bach by Hofstadter.
 
  • #36
Philosopher_k said:
thanks insilcium. Do you have any tips on becoming a mathematical physicist? The other thing i am really considering is astrophysics/cosmology.

Learn to program. Most theoretical astrophysics today requires a lot of computer skills, and those also happen to be marketable.

I plan to stick to my guns and continue down the academic track. I frankly don't care if i only earn 50 grand a year.

The problem is that the jobs just are not there even at low salaries. One problem is what I call the "second Einstein effect." So you have Albert Einstein discover all of these interesting things about the universe. Great! So what's there left to do if you are the second Einstein?

Also there are deep questions that involve physics and philosophy that are very lucrative. I spend most of my time basically trying to answer the question "what is money?" and what is the relationship between time and money.
 
  • #37
Philosopher_k said:
Also Peng, i will work part time as a quant and part time as a professor at harvard, while i am formulating the unified theory of everything, so i am sure i will be able to earn at least 250 k a year :)

You can't. Quants work full time, and there is a big enough culture clash between academic and industry Ph.D.'s that this isn't realistic.

Figuring out how to work as a quant while still being able to d o decent research is something that I've been trying to work out. I think I understand the basic limits, but I haven't yet been able to figure out a way around them.
 
  • #38
Pengwuino said:
Get use to the idea of possibly ending up at a non-high end school if you absolutely must become a professor.There are very very very few "dream positions" out there and you are not the only one who wants one and the people who have them usually die before they give up their job... or are forced into retirement.

By "few", the actual number of "dream positions" in HEP or astrophysics that open up each year is about 5, and I can point you to the website that lists them all. The number of "non-dream positions" that open up each year is about 20-30. That's with about 100 qualified applicants.

One thing I do find odd is how many people that have no problem with differential topology and quantum field theory, have so much trouble with basic arithmetic and probability.
 
  • #39
twofish-quant said:
By "few", the actual number of "dream positions" in HEP or astrophysics that open up each year is about 5, and I can point you to the website that lists them all. The number of "non-dream positions" that open up each year is about 20-30. That's with about 100 qualified applicants.

One thing I do find odd is how many people that have no problem with differential topology and quantum field theory, have so much trouble with basic arithmetic and probability.

Because your topology doesn't tread on any ones dreams.

As for the OP, you're most most likely not going to be top of your country, get into Princeton, and then teach at Harvard. The silver lining in it all is that it doesn't matter. You could do all that, become a professor at Harvard, then crash and burn and all anyone will know you for is crashing and burning. Then again you could become the next Einstein and all people will know you for is being Einstein II. The point is, what you do and how you're known will be mainly the result of what you do when you actually have to produce on your own. Anyone who is well known isn't well known because of where they come from, they're well known because of what they have done.
 
  • #40
Who is to say i am not planning on producing anything?

Whats the point in trying then, if i am stuck in some liberal arts college, never winning any prizes or such, teaching students who could not care less about the subject matter?
 
  • #41
Philosopher_k said:
Who is to say i am not planning on producing anything?

Whats the point in trying then, if i am stuck in some liberal arts college, never winning any prizes or such, teaching students who could not care less about the subject matter?

What's the point in driving a car if you can't win a Formula 500 event. You'll never know if you could get a nice research professorship at a good university if you don't try. And sometimes trying means the possibility of having to spend a few years at Noname State.
 
  • #42
Yes, your view of theoretical physics is extremely romanticized. But, you can still go get a B.S. in physics, which should be enough time to realize that physics is quite different from candyland. It's mostly, you know, hard work. A B.S. in physics is pretty useful in a wide range of fields. Of course you already said you'd rather work at Burger King than do anything other than the most theoretical of work :rolleyes:. That might just be what you have to do then.
 
  • #43
Philosopher_k said:
Whats the point in trying then, if i am stuck in some liberal arts college, never winning any prizes or such, teaching students who could not care less about the subject matter?


This really irks me. I hope you realize there are thousands and thousands of brilliant people working hard on practical problems which can directly improve technologies, right now, on SUNDAY morning! Do you think nobody works as hard as you, or that you're just so much smarter than them? Do these people go to work with the goal of earning prizes? No, they don't. Personally I think it would help you to gain perspective on life if you work construction for a year after high school.
 
  • #44
Philosopher_k said:
What's the point in trying then, if i am stuck in some liberal arts college, never winning any prizes or such, teaching students who could not care less about the subject matter?

That's a great philosophy question that you should think deeply about.

Different people have different answers, but I should warn you that if your goal in physics is to do things for recognition, you are going to have some pretty severe problems.

There is a great quote from a comic book...

"We don't do it for the glory. We don't do it for the recognition... We do it because it needs to be done. Because if we don't, no one else will. And we do it even if no one knows what we've done. Even if no one knows we exist. Even if no one remembers we ever existed."
 
  • #45
Pengwuino said:
What's the point in driving a car if you can't win a Formula 500 event. You'll never know if you could get a nice research professorship at a good university if you don't try. And sometimes trying means the possibility of having to spend a few years at Noname State.

And then you have to ask yourself what you want to do even if it turns out that you are just not going to get a research professorship at Big Name University or even at Noname State. Personally, I think that learning some tiny bit about the university is cool enough so that its worth doing even if no one else knows what I've done.

Also one thing that I like about physics is that it is *HARD*, painfully, brutally, back-breaking hard.

One good analogy is that what Stephen Hawking has basically done is to go up to the top of Mount Everest and then take some snapshots and they show it to people. It looks nice, but taking snapshots is no substitute for actually being at the top of the mountain, and there's something that you get when you climb the mountain yourself that you just can't get if you get helicoptered to it.
 
  • #46
Phyisab**** said:
This really irks me. I hope you realize there are thousands and thousands of brilliant people working hard on practical problems which can directly improve technologies, right now, on SUNDAY morning! Do you think nobody works as hard as you, or that you're just so much smarter than them? Do these people go to work with the goal of earning prizes? No, they don't. Personally I think it would help you to gain perspective on life if you work construction for a year after high school.

What this guy said 1000 times. Working in construction changed me. I couldn't even survive for 6 months. I quit 3 months in and boy was it a tough one. I almost got killed a few times too. Dude, construction workers ARE REALLY HARD WORKERS. They're 1000x the man that physicists are or anybody in academia.
 
  • #47
Philosopher_k said:
Chemistry, Calculus up to 3, linear algebra

(these are rough estimates as i am not American)

So, do you know Complex analysis and differential equations? Also, what is College Chemistry? Don't you have Chemistry in your High School?
 
  • #48
twofish-quant said:
And then you have to ask yourself what you want to do even if it turns out that you are just not going to get a research professorship at Big Name University or even at Noname State. Personally, I think that learning some tiny bit about the university is cool enough so that its worth doing even if no one else knows what I've done.

I suspect you meant to write "universe" instead of "university" in the last sentence, although learning something about how universities really work is kind of cool, too. :smile:

I too got interested in physics by reading the pop-sci literature of my day, which included writers like Asimov and Gamow (this was long before Hawking, Greene, et al.), and got really hooked by learning about Maxwell's Equations in the second semester of first-year college physics. But I never had a drive to get to the "top" or gain recognition. I did physics because I enjoyed learning cool stuff.

When I finished graduate school with a Ph.D. in experimental HEP, I looked at the research job prospects in that field, and decided that I'd rather go into teaching. So now I'm at one of those small liberal arts colleges, very much like the one I graduated from myself. At a place like this, you eventually have to teach just about every undergraduate physics course, so I'm still learning cool stuff, more than 25 years later.
 
  • #49
twofish-quant said:
There is a great quote from a comic book...

"We don't do it for the glory. We don't do it for the recognition... We do it because it needs to be done. Because if we don't, no one else will. And we do it even if no one knows what we've done. Even if no one knows we exist. Even if no one remembers we ever existed."

Supergirl, right? :-p
 
  • #50
why the hell should i settle for teaching at no name liberal arts college when people like witten and tao pretty much skip postdoc work and get professorships straight away. Why am i any less talented then them?

As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape. Why do i think i am so smart? Short answer is, i don't. Its just i am much smarter than the average person out there who spends their day working in an office or cleaning toilets. People with my drive should be given the chance to extend Human knowledge. Instead the academic system does not recognize true talent when it sees it. What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

As for the climbing a mountain analogy... i like it.
 
  • #51
ITT: A person with their complexes.
 
  • #52
Your humility and erudition are truly great. I wish you much success in all your endeavors.
 
  • #53
Philosopher_k said:
why the hell should i settle for teaching at no name liberal arts college when people like witten and tao pretty much skip postdoc work and get professorships straight away. Why am i any less talented then them?

As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape. Why do i think i am so smart? Short answer is, i don't. Its just i am much smarter than the average person out there who spends their day working in an office or cleaning toilets. People with my drive should be given the chance to extend Human knowledge. Instead the academic system does not recognize true talent when it sees it. What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

As for the climbing a mountain analogy... i like it.

Being only a freshman right now I can't say much else but this: if this is the type of person I discover in the Math and Physics fields I will run away and burn all my Math and Physics books.
 
  • #54
Philosopher_k said:
As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape.

Son, it's difficult to believe that you are as smart as you say when you keep writing stupid things.

One of the smartest people I know works construction. He's a steelworker, and builds skyscrapers and bridges. He also was chosen to lead the team to install an irreplaceable silicon detector into the exact center of a major particle detector. Real physicists, you see, recognize talent where they see it,

Philosopher_k said:
What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

I don't think you will. What you need to do is lose the arrogant attitude, because it will stand in the way of your success. But you show no signs of being willing to do this,
 
  • #55
Tao is an anomaly. You're not.
 
  • #56
Philosopher_k said:
why the hell should i settle for teaching at no name liberal arts college when people like witten and tao pretty much skip postdoc work and get professorships straight away. Why am i any less talented then them?

1) Because it's pretty unlikely that you are Witten or Tao. Most people aren't that good. Most physicists aren't that good.

2) Because even if you were, timing is everything. If you are as smart as Witten and Tao, but there are no jobs, then you are stuck anyway. There are dozens of people that are as smart as Witten and Tao, that couldn't get jobs because Witten or Tao got the job.

As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape. Why do i think i am so smart? Short answer is, i don't. Its just i am much smarter than the average person out there who spends their day working in an office or cleaning toilets.

By definition 50% of the people in the world are smarter than the average person. Being smarter than average doesn't make you unique. Also being super-smart doesn't guarantee a job. My guess is that among the 6 billion people on this planet, there are about 200 people that can do math at Witten or Tao's level. The problem is that there are 5 jobs. Bummer.

People with my drive should be given the chance to extend Human knowledge. Instead the academic system does not recognize true talent when it sees it. What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

You need a lot more humility, since I don't think you are going to get very far in physics unless you fix your attitude.

Also, learn to settle. At some point, you are going to realize that you just won't make it to the top. At that point, you have to make some decisions about what you want to do with your life.

Finally. There is no "top". The tenured professors that I know of work just as hard as they did in high school. Even if you have no other competitors you become your own competitor.
 
  • #57
Dear god... having skimmed through the thread, I've come to one conclusion: The education system in the United States is atrocious. I don't mean to poke fun at anyone here, only to point out that many things mentioned here, assumed as givens, are unimaginable where I come from xD (Perhaps this is an anomaly exclusive to California...).

As to the OP, I suggest doing what you can to teach yourself what you want to do. If you can't sit down for a moment with pen/pencil/paper/notepad/compiler on one hand and a book on the other, focus, and truly be in utter, rapt attention, then perhaps whatever it is you've attempted to teach yourself isn't for you. You shouldn't have something (a uni class, with all its bits) "looking over your shoulder", so to speak; there's nothing to be accountable to beside yourself (until you get a job, of course, but that's something else entirely :P).

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned something golden, i.e.: there are many little bumps and irritating parts to any field; getting over those tiny hurdles, however, will reveal tons of fun opportunities. If you're stuck at the hurdles, perhaps some field isn't your thing.
 
  • #58
Philosopher_k said:
why the hell should i settle for teaching at no name liberal arts college when people like witten and tao pretty much skip postdoc work and get professorships straight away. Why am i any less talented then them?

As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape. Why do i think i am so smart? Short answer is, i don't. Its just i am much smarter than the average person out there who spends their day working in an office or cleaning toilets. People with my drive should be given the chance to extend Human knowledge. Instead the academic system does not recognize true talent when it sees it. What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

As for the climbing a mountain analogy... i like it.

Because you are in fact less talented then them.

I only bust out the superiority complex to troll people on other message boards. But you sincerely believe you're better than everyone else? This thread is HILARIOUS. :smile:

Get ready for the life of a has-been that never was -- a self destructing prophecy just waiting to be fulfilled.
 
  • #59
lompocus said:
Dear god... having skimmed through the thread, I've come to one conclusion: The education system in the United States is atrocious.

Personally I think it's pretty good. If you are born in the US, and you have reasonable amounts of drive and mathematical skill, you can get a physics Ph.D. This is not true for a lot of other countries.
 
  • #60
Sure a lot of things in the U.S. are better than other countries because a lot of the rest of the world isn't as good. I'd say being complacent about education would retard progress, which could have profound consequences for [if I can be radical for a moment] human civilization across the world.
 

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