Is my view of Theoretical physics romanticized?

[twofish-quant]

thanks insilcium. Do you have any tips on becoming a mathematical physicist? The other thing i am really considering is astrophysics/cosmology.

Learn to program. Most theoretical astrophysics today requires a lot of computer skills, and those also happen to be marketable.

I plan to stick to my guns and continue down the academic track. I frankly don't care if i only earn 50 grand a year.

The problem is that the jobs just are not there even at low salaries. One problem is what I call the "second Einstein effect." So you have Albert Einstein discover all of these interesting things about the universe. Great! So what's there left to do if you are the second Einstein?

Also there are deep questions that involve physics and philosophy that are very lucrative. I spend most of my time basically trying to answer the question "what is money?" and what is the relationship between time and money.

 

[twofish-quant]

Also Peng, i will work part time as a quant and part time as a professor at harvard, while i am formulating the unified theory of everything, so i am sure i will be able to earn at least 250 k a year :)

You can't. Quants work full time, and there is a big enough culture clash between academic and industry Ph.D.'s that this isn't realistic.

Figuring out how to work as a quant while still being able to d o decent research is something that I've been trying to work out. I think I understand the basic limits, but I haven't yet been able to figure out a way around them.

 

[twofish-quant]

Get use to the idea of possibly ending up at a non-high end school if you absolutely must become a professor.There are very very very few "dream positions" out there and you are not the only one who wants one and the people who have them usually die before they give up their job... or are forced into retirement.

By "few", the actual number of "dream positions" in HEP or astrophysics that open up each year is about 5, and I can point you to the website that lists them all. The number of "non-dream positions" that open up each year is about 20-30. That's with about 100 qualified applicants.

One thing I do find odd is how many people that have no problem with differential topology and quantum field theory, have so much trouble with basic arithmetic and probability.

 

[Pengwuino]

By "few", the actual number of "dream positions" in HEP or astrophysics that open up each year is about 5, and I can point you to the website that lists them all. The number of "non-dream positions" that open up each year is about 20-30. That's with about 100 qualified applicants.

One thing I do find odd is how many people that have no problem with differential topology and quantum field theory, have so much trouble with basic arithmetic and probability.

Because your topology doesn't tread on any ones dreams.

As for the OP, you're most most likely not going to be top of your country, get into Princeton, and then teach at Harvard. The silver lining in it all is that it doesn't matter. You could do all that, become a professor at Harvard, then crash and burn and all anyone will know you for is crashing and burning. Then again you could become the next Einstein and all people will know you for is being Einstein II. The point is, what you do and how you're known will be mainly the result of what you do when you actually have to produce on your own. Anyone who is well known isn't well known because of where they come from, they're well known because of what they have done.

 

[Philosopher_k]

Who is to say i am not planning on producing anything?

Whats the point in trying then, if i am stuck in some liberal arts college, never winning any prizes or such, teaching students who could not care less about the subject matter?

 

[Pengwuino]

Who is to say i am not planning on producing anything?

Whats the point in trying then, if i am stuck in some liberal arts college, never winning any prizes or such, teaching students who could not care less about the subject matter?

What's the point in driving a car if you can't win a Formula 500 event. You'll never know if you could get a nice research professorship at a good university if you don't try. And sometimes trying means the possibility of having to spend a few years at Noname State.

 

[Phyisab****]

Yes, your view of theoretical physics is extremely romanticized. But, you can still go get a B.S. in physics, which should be enough time to realize that physics is quite different from candyland. It's mostly, you know, hard work. A B.S. in physics is pretty useful in a wide range of fields. Of course you already said you'd rather work at Burger King than do anything other than the most theoretical of work . That might just be what you have to do then.

 

[Phyisab****]

Whats the point in trying then, if i am stuck in some liberal arts college, never winning any prizes or such, teaching students who could not care less about the subject matter?

This really irks me. I hope you realize there are thousands and thousands of brilliant people working hard on practical problems which can directly improve technologies, right now, on SUNDAY morning! Do you think nobody works as hard as you, or that you're just so much smarter than them? Do these people go to work with the goal of earning prizes? No, they don't. Personally I think it would help you to gain perspective on life if you work construction for a year after high school.

 

[twofish-quant]

What's the point in trying then, if i am stuck in some liberal arts college, never winning any prizes or such, teaching students who could not care less about the subject matter?

That's a great philosophy question that you should think deeply about.

Different people have different answers, but I should warn you that if your goal in physics is to do things for recognition, you are going to have some pretty severe problems.

There is a great quote from a comic book...

"We don't do it for the glory. We don't do it for the recognition... We do it because it needs to be done. Because if we don't, no one else will. And we do it even if no one knows what we've done. Even if no one knows we exist. Even if no one remembers we ever existed."

 

[twofish-quant]

What's the point in driving a car if you can't win a Formula 500 event. You'll never know if you could get a nice research professorship at a good university if you don't try. And sometimes trying means the possibility of having to spend a few years at Noname State.

And then you have to ask yourself what you want to do even if it turns out that you are just not going to get a research professorship at Big Name University or even at Noname State. Personally, I think that learning some tiny bit about the university is cool enough so that its worth doing even if no one else knows what I've done.

Also one thing that I like about physics is that it is *HARD*, painfully, brutally, back-breaking hard.

One good analogy is that what Stephen Hawking has basically done is to go up to the top of Mount Everest and then take some snapshots and they show it to people. It looks nice, but taking snapshots is no substitute for actually being at the top of the mountain, and there's something that you get when you climb the mountain yourself that you just can't get if you get helicoptered to it.

 

[kramer733]

This really irks me. I hope you realize there are thousands and thousands of brilliant people working hard on practical problems which can directly improve technologies, right now, on SUNDAY morning! Do you think nobody works as hard as you, or that you're just so much smarter than them? Do these people go to work with the goal of earning prizes? No, they don't. Personally I think it would help you to gain perspective on life if you work construction for a year after high school.

What this guy said 1000 times. Working in construction changed me. I couldn't even survive for 6 months. I quit 3 months in and boy was it a tough one. I almost got killed a few times too. Dude, construction workers ARE REALLY HARD WORKERS. They're 1000x the man that physicists are or anybody in academia.

 

[Dickfore]

Chemistry, Calculus up to 3, linear algebra

(these are rough estimates as i am not American)

So, do you know Complex analysis and differential equations? Also, what is College Chemistry? Don't you have Chemistry in your High School?

 

[jtbell]

And then you have to ask yourself what you want to do even if it turns out that you are just not going to get a research professorship at Big Name University or even at Noname State. Personally, I think that learning some tiny bit about the university is cool enough so that its worth doing even if no one else knows what I've done.

I suspect you meant to write "universe" instead of "university" in the last sentence, although learning something about how universities really work is kind of cool, too.

I too got interested in physics by reading the pop-sci literature of my day, which included writers like Asimov and Gamow (this was long before Hawking, Greene, et al.), and got really hooked by learning about Maxwell's Equations in the second semester of first-year college physics. But I never had a drive to get to the "top" or gain recognition. I did physics because I enjoyed learning cool stuff.

When I finished graduate school with a Ph.D. in experimental HEP, I looked at the research job prospects in that field, and decided that I'd rather go into teaching. So now I'm at one of those small liberal arts colleges, very much like the one I graduated from myself. At a place like this, you eventually have to teach just about every undergraduate physics course, so I'm still learning cool stuff, more than 25 years later.

 

[discrete*]

There is a great quote from a comic book...

"We don't do it for the glory. We don't do it for the recognition... We do it because it needs to be done. Because if we don't, no one else will. And we do it even if no one knows what we've done. Even if no one knows we exist. Even if no one remembers we ever existed."

Supergirl, right?

 

[Philosopher_k]

why the hell should i settle for teaching at no name liberal arts college when people like witten and tao pretty much skip postdoc work and get professorships straight away. Why am i any less talented then them?

As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape. Why do i think i am so smart? Short answer is, i don't. Its just i am much smarter than the average person out there who spends their day working in an office or cleaning toilets. People with my drive should be given the chance to extend Human knowledge. Instead the academic system does not recognize true talent when it sees it. What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

As for the climbing a mountain analogy... i like it.

 

[Dickfore]

ITT: A person with their complexes.

 

[Phyisab****]

Your humility and erudition are truly great. I wish you much success in all your endeavors.

 

[DrummingAtom]

why the hell should i settle for teaching at no name liberal arts college when people like witten and tao pretty much skip postdoc work and get professorships straight away. Why am i any less talented then them?

As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape. Why do i think i am so smart? Short answer is, i don't. Its just i am much smarter than the average person out there who spends their day working in an office or cleaning toilets. People with my drive should be given the chance to extend Human knowledge. Instead the academic system does not recognize true talent when it sees it. What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

As for the climbing a mountain analogy... i like it.

Being only a freshman right now I can't say much else but this: if this is the type of person I discover in the Math and Physics fields I will run away and burn all my Math and Physics books.

 

[Vanadium 50]

As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape.

Son, it's difficult to believe that you are as smart as you say when you keep writing stupid things.

One of the smartest people I know works construction. He's a steelworker, and builds skyscrapers and bridges. He also was chosen to lead the team to install an irreplaceable silicon detector into the exact center of a major particle detector. Real physicists, you see, recognize talent where they see it,

What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

I don't think you will. What you need to do is lose the arrogant attitude, because it will stand in the way of your success. But you show no signs of being willing to do this,

 

[hadsed]

Tao is an anomaly. You're not.

 

[twofish-quant]

why the hell should i settle for teaching at no name liberal arts college when people like witten and tao pretty much skip postdoc work and get professorships straight away. Why am i any less talented then them?

1) Because it's pretty unlikely that you are Witten or Tao. Most people aren't that good. Most physicists aren't that good.

2) Because even if you were, timing is everything. If you are as smart as Witten and Tao, but there are no jobs, then you are stuck anyway. There are dozens of people that are as smart as Witten and Tao, that couldn't get jobs because Witten or Tao got the job.

As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape. Why do i think i am so smart? Short answer is, i don't. Its just i am much smarter than the average person out there who spends their day working in an office or cleaning toilets.

By definition 50% of the people in the world are smarter than the average person. Being smarter than average doesn't make you unique. Also being super-smart doesn't guarantee a job. My guess is that among the 6 billion people on this planet, there are about 200 people that can do math at Witten or Tao's level. The problem is that there are 5 jobs. Bummer.

People with my drive should be given the chance to extend Human knowledge. Instead the academic system does not recognize true talent when it sees it. What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

You need a lot more humility, since I don't think you are going to get very far in physics unless you fix your attitude.

Also, learn to settle. At some point, you are going to realize that you just won't make it to the top. At that point, you have to make some decisions about what you want to do with your life.

Finally. There is no "top". The tenured professors that I know of work just as hard as they did in high school. Even if you have no other competitors you become your own competitor.

 

[lompocus]

Dear god... having skimmed through the thread, I've come to one conclusion: The education system in the United States is atrocious. I don't mean to poke fun at anyone here, only to point out that many things mentioned here, assumed as givens, are unimaginable where I come from xD (Perhaps this is an anomaly exclusive to California...).

As to the OP, I suggest doing what you can to teach yourself what you want to do. If you can't sit down for a moment with pen/pencil/paper/notepad/compiler on one hand and a book on the other, focus, and truly be in utter, rapt attention, then perhaps whatever it is you've attempted to teach yourself isn't for you. You shouldn't have something (a uni class, with all its bits) "looking over your shoulder", so to speak; there's nothing to be accountable to beside yourself (until you get a job, of course, but that's something else entirely :P).

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned something golden, i.e.: there are many little bumps and irritating parts to any field; getting over those tiny hurdles, however, will reveal tons of fun opportunities. If you're stuck at the hurdles, perhaps some field isn't your thing.

 

[cdotter]

why the hell should i settle for teaching at no name liberal arts college when people like witten and tao pretty much skip postdoc work and get professorships straight away. Why am i any less talented then them?

As for working in construction, screw that. I am not some dumb ape. Why do i think i am so smart? Short answer is, i don't. Its just i am much smarter than the average person out there who spends their day working in an office or cleaning toilets. People with my drive should be given the chance to extend Human knowledge. Instead the academic system does not recognize true talent when it sees it. What do i have to do to make it to the top? I will do anything...

As for the climbing a mountain analogy... i like it.

Because you are in fact less talented then them.

I only bust out the superiority complex to troll people on other message boards. But you sincerely believe you're better than everyone else? This thread is HILARIOUS.

Get ready for the life of a has-been that never was -- a self destructing prophecy just waiting to be fulfilled.

 

[twofish-quant]

Dear god... having skimmed through the thread, I've come to one conclusion: The education system in the United States is atrocious.

Personally I think it's pretty good. If you are born in the US, and you have reasonable amounts of drive and mathematical skill, you can get a physics Ph.D. This is not true for a lot of other countries.

 

[hadsed]

Sure a lot of things in the U.S. are better than other countries because a lot of the rest of the world isn't as good. I'd say being complacent about education would retard progress, which could have profound consequences for [if I can be radical for a moment] human civilization across the world.

 

[Pengwuino]

Dear god... having skimmed through the thread, I've come to one conclusion: The education system in the United States is atrocious. I don't mean to poke fun at anyone here, only to point out that many things mentioned here, assumed as givens, are unimaginable where I come from xD (Perhaps this is an anomaly exclusive to California...).

Your lack of details only further reinforces your point...

 

[lompocus]

Sorry for not being specific. Someone mentioned Calc and linear algebra as requirements to graduate from their high school. Knowing that their school was not the norm (anywhere, apparently), it was, however, still shocking to take this in terribly sharp contrast with my area, where 5%, if even (most likely far less) with ever go through something beyond trig or college algebra stuff. Half of those will care less about math in their university. A large portion of that 5% will fail their AP Calc class, or else not get anything substantial out of it.

(the number is just a bad estimate, and comes from what I've seen in my area :P. In short, education relating to math is the farthest thing from a priority, anywhere, with results manifested in the form of absurd unemployment, gov't budget deficits, etc. Back on track with where this thread was going...)

 

[Dickfore]

This thread is going nowhere fast. For one thing, it should be locked by the mods and the op should be smacked around a bit with a large trout.

 

[Pengwuino]

Sorry for not being specific. Someone mentioned Calc and linear algebra as requirements to graduate from their high school. Knowing that their school was not the norm (anywhere, apparently), it was, however, still shocking to take this in terribly sharp contrast with my area, where 5%, if even (most likely far less) with ever go through something beyond trig or college algebra stuff. Half of those will care less about math in their university. A large portion of that 5% will fail their AP Calc class, or else not get anything substantial out of it.

Yah that is more typical of american education. Calculus being a requirement to graduate is something I've actually never even heard of around here, let alone linear algebra (although some people confuse the simple little algebra everyone goes through with the linear algebra, matrices, all that fun stuff)

 

[Kevin_Axion]

I said introduction to linear algebra and calculus, not Gram-Schmidt Process, Orthonormal bases, eigenvectors and the like. And I go to a typical high-school, it's a Catholic based institution so it has a slight academic advantage.

 

[lompocus]

Even then, I wish all catholic schools were of uniform quality; can you ship ours some of your old school's? :D...

 

[Kevin_Axion]

Don't worry about it, just learn stuff on your own and University will be more academic and engaging.

 

[Philosopher_k]

I would just like to apologise for the things i have said. I by no means mean to justify my actions as i acted out of frustration/sadness/hate.

I have long dreamed of being a mathematician/theoretical physicist. I was willing to devote my life to a subject that i loved. Learning about black holes string theory, branes, cosmology and particle physics. I then come on here, expressing my dream, only to be told that the chances of reaching my goals are close to nill. This pisses me off. I love physics and yet i am told that i may never make it to a decent school or even become a professor!

I used to dream of being the next einstein, revolutionizing 21st century physics. I was so stupid i actually thought it was possible. Now i am looking at the possibility of being too stupid to get a phd. I will not match hawking or penrose, I will never prove any famous theorems. So what is the point? I seem to be asking this alot!

The thing is i am so confused and frustrated. I have to decide what to major for college in and then i have no idea what i actually want to do with my life!

Working in industry/finance just does not appeal to me.

I want to be a thinker, but i just seem to get told i can't be. I am told i am lacking in talent and that it is worthless to dream...

well guys give yourself a pat on the back for crushing a kids dreams.

 

[Stan Marsh]

Everyone interested in physics like thinking the origin of the universe and time. But not everyone can solve these problems.

Only the ones who are willing to pay hard labor work and stand complicated and tedious math (though it's fun actually) can make real physicists and reveal the truth of universe. To achieve really cool goals, you have to be ready to suffer stuff that is so not cool. It's the commitment a physicist has.

 

[Philosopher_k]

That is not my problem stan.

I am willing to do the math. But learning and understanding all of modern mathematical physics is another thing.