News Is Retaliation Justified in the Russian Tragedy of Chechnya?

[GENIERE]

I thought Russia was wrong re: Chechnya but nothing can justify this atrocity. Retaliation should be swift and relentless.

 

[studentx]

it appears 10 of the dead serial killers are arabs. I hope muslims for once take responsibility of their problem and fight it out, instead of worrying about themselves and worlds image of Islam

 

[plover]

it appears 10 of the dead serial killers are arabs. I hope muslims for once take responsibility of their problem and fight it out, instead of worrying about themselves and worlds image of Islam

One would think that if they worried about the world's image of Islam, they would take responsibility...

Of course, many Muslims feel that way also. I recall seeing an interview with a Muslim (a little after 9/11, I think) who said the real jihad for Muslims would be to rid their societies of terrorists, that the terrorists are the true enemies of Islam.

Former Imam of Rome, http://www.afsi.org/OUTPOST/2001JUN-JUL/junjul9.htm in June 2001, that for a Muslim: "as long as his basic religious rights are honored it is forbidden to rebel against the government or engage in sedition against the government. ... it applies to the United States and to Israel too."

 

[Adam]

it appears 10 of the dead serial killers are arabs. I hope muslims for once take responsibility of their problem and fight it out, instead of worrying about themselves and worlds image of Islam

Are you saying "Some of them were Arabs, therefore Arabs are responsible"? Yes, the few responsible need some serious pain and death, but blaming a group of people like that is sick.

 

[studentx]

No that's not what i was saying Adam.
The arab world doesn't acknowledge it as a problem to be fought, because this violence is against Islam and so these terrorists are not muslims, which means its not their problem and they won't fight it (cept for the Saudis, and the arab world isn't exactly supportive in that). For a muslim, acknowledging that Islam is the problem is like making love with Satan.

 

[studentx]

http://forums.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic=21279&
A link to an Islamic forum where you can see the twisted view of reality of a group of muslims. I know these ppl are not representative for real muslims, but there are thousands of members on that forum and nobody , not a single moderate muslim stands up against these ridiculous views. Islam is the religion of peace and pacifism to terrorism

 

[Dagenais]

Paul Martin is outraged by this incident. What are terrorists trying to accomplish by doing things like this? They lose any remaining sympathy for their countries. Stunts like that just encourage other countries to fight harder against terrorism.

 

[Adam]

Having read some relevant parts (not all) of the Koran, I would agree that those people are not Muslims. Or, I would agree that they are Muslims in the same way Hitler was a Christian. They heed some parts, ignore the rest, and twist everything to justify their actions. I can well understand Muslims saying those people are not Muslims, as I can understand Christians saying Hitler was no Christian.

However, "Arab" was mentioned. It seems at least one was a sub-Saharan African, not Arab. I'm not sure where all the others came from. To say "Arabs should take responsibility" is equivalent to saying "Caucasians should all take responsibility for Hitler, because he was a whitey".

Personally, I think it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that any ethnic division of humanity should be in any way responsible for the actions of a small group of complete nutters. I say hang those who performed the act, and those who hired and/or directed them, by chains in the middle of the street so the relatives of the victims can do as they please.

 

[Adam]

As for acknowledgment, I've heard Muslim, Arabic, and other leaders again and again saying terrorism is nasty and should be fought. I think even http://www.algathafi.org/Index_e.htm is saying that these days. Eurasia is a friend this week.

 

[studentx]

Personally, I think it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that any ethnic division of humanity should be in any way responsible for the actions of a small group of complete nutters.

I told you already that's not what i said. I said they should take responsibility of their problem, not this terror attack. If hundreds of terrorist attacks were made by christians from the US, these organizations would be utterly crushed and the churches would probably hire hitmen to get rid of this scum. No major muslim group has ever repudiated the doctrines of armed jihad and suicidebombings. Innocense is a matter of opinion, a terrorist is a freedom fighter. Muslims have no right to question them or their actions and most of them probably never will, theyre humble when the mujahideen blow up children and behead civilians and implore the world not to get the wrong image of Islam.

 

[Dagenais]

I say hang those who performed the act

Death sentence? That's not the Canadian way.

 

[Adam]

I'm no Canadian. :P

Actually I'm against state-run death penalties. States should never have the right to execute citizens. However, citizens should have the right to execute other citizens who are proven to have killed their spouses, relative, et cetera.

 

[BobG]

I told you already that's not what i said. I said they should take responsibility of their problem, not this terror attack. If hundreds of terrorist attacks were made by christians from the US, these organizations would be utterly crushed and the churches would probably hire hitmen to get rid of this scum. No major muslim group has ever repudiated the doctrines of armed jihad and suicidebombings. Innocense is a matter of opinion, a terrorist is a freedom fighter. Muslims have no right to question them or their actions and most of them probably never will, theyre humble when the mujahideen blow up children and behead civilians and implore the world not to get the wrong image of Islam.

Why would you think this? This doesn't seem to be a problem for the IRA, a group that receives much of its funding from US Christians.

 

[studentx]

And what is the western view on the IRA? Are they martyrs, freedom fighters? Werent they engaged in heavy combat with the brits?

 

[JohnDubYa]

Or, I would agree that they are Muslims in the same way Hitler was a Christian.

Huh? In no way can Hitler be described as a fundamentalist Christian. He had no use for Christianity. "Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure."

 

[Dagenais]

However, citizens should have the right to execute other citizens who are proven to have killed their spouses, relative, et cetera.

And how would this work? The victum's family gets to decide whether the death sentence well be put to use, or will they simply execute the murderer themselves after trial?

 

[Adam]

Huh? In no way can Hitler be described as a fundamentalist Christian. He had no use for Christianity. "Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure."

Hitler quotes:

"It must be thoroughly understood that the lost land will never be won back by solemn appeals to the God, nor by hopes in any League of Nations, but only by the force of arms."

"We are all proud that through God's powerful aid, we have become once more true Germans."

"Always before God and the world, the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills."

"What we have to fight for is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the creator."

"The world will not help, the people must help themselves. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it, we may wage the battle of our life The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty - of Him who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward."

"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?"

 

[Adam]

And how would this work? The victum's family gets to decide whether the death sentence well be put to use, or will they simply execute the murderer themselves after trial?

I have covered this in a thread about capital punishment. Search for it or start a new one. I'd be happy to cover it again, if you wish.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Adam, those are political speeches. In private, Hitler was nowhere near as religious. Here is an excerpt from Table Talk, which were recorded from private conversations from Hitler's evening dinners.

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in religion was introduced into the world by Christianity."

In private, Hitler acknowledged the concept of God. But he was no religious fanatic. According to Alan Bullock (Hitler and Stalin), Hitler thought that scientific progress would ultimately show that Christian doctrine was absurd. And during the War, Hitler proved no friend of the Church. (He didn't take his stance to the point of considering the church an enemy of the state like Stalin, however.)

 

[Adam]

JohnDubya... are you saying politicians lie?

 

[Smurf]

Stalin was orthodox christian bolshevist, of course he took the church as an enemy.

Hitler went to school to become a roman catholic.

Gallileo has yet to be partonded by the church, but Hitler was never excommunicated in the first place.

 

[russ_watters]

Gallileo has yet to be partonded by the church, but Hitler was never excommunicated in the first place.

Actually, Galileo was pardoned in 1992: Link

One of the first steps of John Paul's papacy, which began in 1978, was to begin procedures leading to the rehabilitation in 1992 of Galileo, the Italian astronomer persecuted by the Church for teaching that the Earth revolved around the sun.

The Inquisition condemned Galileo in 1633 because his teachings clashed with the Bible, which read: "God fixed the Earth upon its foundation, not to be moved forever." Galileo was rehabilitated after 359 years.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Hitler went to school to become a roman catholic.

Most of the Mob attended a Catholic church when young, but that doesn't make them religious.

Stalin murdered clergy because he considered the Church a cornerstone of Russian peasantry.

 

[Evo]

I've deleted the one liners and backed the thread up to the last full post, but this thread is going off topic.

If we can't discuss the topic and be nice, I'll have to lock it.