News Is Sarkozy addressing the ongoing violence in French suburbs effectively?

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Sarkozy, the French Interior Minister, highlighted that violence in the suburbs is a daily occurrence, with reports of 20 to 40 cars being torched each night. This situation has sparked debate over whether the unrest is due to gang activity or a broader societal revolt. Some participants in the discussion argue that the violence reflects deeper issues of unemployment and social discontent, while others downplay its significance by comparing it to past riots in the U.S. The conversation also touches on the credibility of statistics regarding car burnings and the media's portrayal of the unrest. Overall, the thread emphasizes the alarming nature of the ongoing violence in French suburbs and its implications for social stability.
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Just read this article, especially the last paragraph(http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/31/news/france.php")

Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life.

Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched, Sarkozy said in an interview last week with the newspaper Le Monde.

Sarkozy is the Interior Minister of France


Are the French too weak to stand up to these gangsters?
 
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Something tells me its not gangsters but closer to a popular revolt.
 
Hey, there is testosterone everywhere, nothing unusual, just an incident France is very peaceful, keep walking, people
 
Are you being sarcastic Andre?

'coz 20-40 burnt cars/night is not peaceful at all.
 
Just send a riot squad from LA, this is nothing :P
 
sid_galt said:
Are you being sarcastic Andre?
'coz 20-40 burnt cars/night is not peaceful at all.
Hey ... they used to burn sheep.

I guess PETA went after them for that.
 
The Smoking Man said:
Hey ... they used to burn sheep.
I guess PETA went after them for that.

Now i want to laugh as if you were kidding...

yet i DO remember something in Europe where like, people were dieing and there was destruction and PETA comes in and demands the animals be left out of it and cared for. But then again as I continue to ponder this hilarious situation... i think its actually africa and there was something with putting bombs on camels (which makes me think maybe its the middle east instead).

In any case, hilarious.
 
Pengwuino said:
Now i want to laugh as if you were kidding...
yet i DO remember something in Europe where like, people were dieing and there was destruction and PETA comes in and demands the animals be left out of it and cared for. But then again as I continue to ponder this hilarious situation... i think its actually africa and there was something with putting bombs on camels (which makes me think maybe its the middle east instead).
In any case, hilarious.
No, I think that was the old Johnny Carson Joke...

"Folks, I don't want to worry you but Iran has just gone nuclear ... Don't worry too much because they still have to drop it off the back of an ox cart."
 
Are you being sarcastic Andre?

'coz 20-40 burnt cars/night is not peaceful at all.

France is generally peaceful.. I mean would you not say the States is peaceful internally? What with the aftermath of katrina, LA Riots etc etc
 
  • #10
Anttech said:
What with the aftermath of katrina, LA Riots etc etc

Are you seriously thinking a few days of trouble in 2 cities years (and actually we're talking about over a decade) apart shows internal problems?? And of course most of the sensationalized reports coming out of NO ended up having no proof...
 
  • #11
Anttech said:
France is generally peaceful.. I mean would you not say the States is peaceful internally? What with the aftermath of katrina, LA Riots etc etc

The Minister said that this violence is a daily fact of life in the suburbs. LA riots as Pengwuino pointed out lasted only for a few days and happened more than 13 years ago.
 
  • #12
America has 8.5 times as many murders per head than France. Not sure I'd call that especially peaceful.
 
  • #13
El Hombre,

First of all absolute numbers matter. If France has say 1 murder per 1000 people while America has 8 murders per thousand people, while not healthy it would not be alarming either. If France has 10 murders per 1000 people while America has 80 murders per 1000 people, it would be very alarming.

Secondly, murder is a sign of high crime while car burning is more of a sign of anarchism and chaos. For instance if 20 people die in riots, it will be much worse than if 20 people are murdered during the same period of time because while one is due to high crime, the other is due to a collapse of law in the society.
 
  • #14
sid_galt said:
El Hombre,
First of all absolute numbers matter. If France has say 1 murder per 1000 people while America has 8 murders per thousand people, while not healthy it would not be alarming either. If France has 10 murders per 1000 people while America has 80 murders per 1000 people, it would be very alarming.
Secondly, murder is a sign of high crime while car burning is more of a sign of anarchism and chaos. For instance if 20 people die in riots, it will be much worse than if 20 people are murdered during the same period of time because while one is due to high crime, the other is due to a collapse of law in the society.
I'd still rather have my car burnt than be shot, thanks. Talking about absolute numbers, how many cars were burned per 1000 cars in France? If it was the odd one, by your own logic, not too much to be concerned about. If it was 80 per 1000 cars burned, then I agree we should be worried. :smile:
 
  • #15
20-40 cars burnt/day is an alarming situation. Such things happen in riots. The fact that this is an everyday affair in France means France has reached an alarming stage.
 
  • #16
Are you seriously thinking a few days of trouble in 2 cities years (and actually we're talking about over a decade) apart shows internal problems?? And of course most of the sensationalized reports coming out of NO ended up having no proof...

Are you seriously thinking that France has Riot problems that have been happening for Years and Years? The reason I stated those two situations is becuase that is what is happening in France right now.. Geez and you think I am a sensationalist!
 
  • #17
MaxS said:
Something tells me its not gangsters but closer to a popular revolt.
Hey, no denying that France has a problem. And in Germany Neo Nazis regularly come in the news with arson and worse. But what does this prove? Anybody who has a comparative study of riots and/or violence in general between different countries?

But look at this:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0198352.html

France and Spain are the world's biggest tourist destinations, dwarfing the US if compared in size or population. That's probably because it is SOOO bad and SOOO dangerous to go there.

I think this whole France thing is just jealousy.
 
  • #18
Jealous of France? You got to be kidding me!

I have not suggested that it is bad and dangerous to live in France. What I am suggesting is that French suburbs are facing a severe problem with riot type violence.

Ever heard of 40 cars being burnt every night in America, Britain, Germany?
 
  • #19
sid_galt said:
Jealous of France? You got to be kidding me!
I have not suggested that it is bad and dangerous to live in France. What I am suggesting is that French suburbs are facing a severe problem with riot type violence.
Ever heard of 40 cars being burnt every night in America, Britain, Germany?
Can you read French? Perhaps you should try to read at the source if this is of so much concern to you. Where do you read 40 cars per night in this day per day report?

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/module_chrono/0,11-0@2-3226,32-705641@51-704172,0.html

Again, there IS a problem. Keep it in perspective.
 
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  • #20
sid_galt said:
First of all absolute numbers matter. If France has say 1 murder per 1000 people while America has 8 murders per thousand people, while not healthy it would not be alarming either.
Quite alarming actually. The current rate in the U.S is more like 8 per 100000.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/offense_tabulations/table_01-01a.html

But the principle you cite is correct. For instance, your chances of being crushed in a stampede of cattle probably increase outside of cities, but that is not a valid reason to avoid the countryside.
 
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  • #21
Mercator said:
Can you read French? Perhaps you should try to read at the source if this is of so much concern to you. Where do you read 40 cars per night in this day per day report?
That's what I'm wondering. I can't find that figure from anything except fringe sites. Which doesn't exactly lend it credibility, you'd think mainstream american media would be all over this.

Seems like some joker making stuff up out of a little violence in Paris.
 
  • #22
I don't know. The French Interior Minister said this himself. Hardly a fringe source.
 
  • #23
Funny, Americans don't usually concern themselves with things like this unless there is an American in one of the cars...

Or they have an axe to grind.

Couldn't be because they are cheese eating surrender monkeys could it ... otherwise, why would ANY American care?

Have another freedom fry.
 
  • #24
Latest BBC report I could find:
French President Jacques Chirac warned of a "dangerous situation" and called for calm after six nights of riots in suburbs in the north-east of Paris.
At least 15 cars were torched overnight in Aulnay-sous-Bois. Police fired rubber bullets and arrested 34 people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4399510.stm

And the same article slips in just a little bit of 'analysis' at the end:
Unemployment and social problems are rife in many of France's poorer suburban areas.

Police have reported sporadic incidents involving mobile groups of youths in the Val-d'Oise, Seine-et-Marne, Hauts-de-Seine and Yvelines regions of Paris.
So I'd go with the theory that this is more than just an isolated incident. People whose lives this neocon agenda of ruthless, untamed capitalism ruins are just not going to take it lying down, it seems. It will be interesting to see where in the world the whole thing spirals completely out of control. France has a good history of popular revolutions, so anything is possible...
 
  • #25
Alexandra,
Unemployment is no excuse for rioting in streets.
90% of the times, its there own fault anyway that they are not employed.
 
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  • #26
sid_galt said:
Alexandra,
Unemployment is no excuse for rioting in streets.
90% of the times, its there own fault anyway that they are not employed.
I'm not excusing, sid_galt, I'm analysing. The point I was trying to make is that when people have no hope of leading a productive and reasonably secure life, anything could happen - not everyone will react by just lying in a gutter and dying quietly. Some people will turn against 'the system', or whatever they think is causing the misery in their lives. To say this is not to urge people to do these things - it is merely an observation.
 
  • #27
sid_galt said:
I don't know. The French Interior Minister said this himself. Hardly a fringe source.
Yeah but I can't find anyone else but 'fringe sources' to tell me this. I can't confirm that he actually said that, and that distresses me, you'd think it would be all over the news, FOX would love to get it's hands on the French government admitting incompetence, I mean, c'mon.
 
  • #28
Art said:
Here's a mainline source for Smurf reporting on the current riots; http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13457760,00.html
It doesn't mention the source of the current unrest but it seems to have started in high immigrant areas following the deaths of two youngsters.
Oh there's plenty of mainstream sources about the riots. It's that quote from the minister and the 40 cars per night statistic I can't find anywhere.
 
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  • #29
Smurf said:
Oh there's plenty of mainstream sources about the riots. It's that quote from the minister and the 40 cars per night statistic I can't find anywhere.

According the http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5392545,00.html", car torchings are a daily fact of life in French suburbs with thousands burned each month.
Even though this does not provide evidence that the quote of the minister was genuine, it pretty much proves that the car burning statistic is in the 20-40 range.
 
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  • #30
Riots erupted in an outburst of anger in Clichy-sous-Bois over the accidental electrocution Oct. 27 of two teenagers who fled a soccer game and hid in a power substation when they saw police enter the area. Youths in the neighborhood suspect that police chased Traore Bouna, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, to their deaths.

http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?Category=24&ID=250955&r=1

I am a bit surprised by this happening in France. It reminds me of Watts in Los Angeles in 1965, Or the burn baby burn riots in Detroit. These incidents have always involved people who live in poverty. And typically ,in this country, have been triggered by an incident involving police.

The latest news I read said that it has spread to twenty towns. There must be some very discontent young people in France.
 
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  • #31
edward said:
http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?Category=24&ID=250955&r=1
I am a bit surprised by this happening in France. It reminds me of Watts in Los Angeles in 1965, Or the burn baby burn riots in Detroit. These incidents have always involved people who live in poverty. And typically ,in this country, have been triggered by an incident involving police.
The latest news I read said that it has spread to twenty towns. There must be some very discontent young people in France.
Yes, It's getting worse. Of course France has it's slums like most other countries and problems can be expected there. The dangerous and regrettable fact here is that it is not just some hooligans, but immigrants, which makes it much more dangerous, prone to polarization and escalation. I hope this can be stopped because if it escalates in France, for sure other European countries will follow.
 
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  • #32
Mercator said:
The dangerous and regrettable fact here is that it is not just some hooligans, but immigrants, which makes it much more dangerous, prone to polarization and escalation. I hope this can be stopped because if it escalates in France, for sure other European countries will follow.


This is in fact the main point: France has a rather large population of North-African immigrants - mainly due to the French adventure in Algeria, and the huge number of people they got from there after their letting go of Algeria in a very ugly conflict. The problem is that in the 60-ies and 70-ies, french authorities found no better idea than to lump all these immigrants into big big new-build suburbs (so that their nice city-centers would not get "polluted" by these populations), without any thought about making them integrate French society. So they had big new immigrant quarters at the outsides of the big cities (especially Paris, but also Lyon, Lille, ...), and had them live off social security grants. Some of these immigrants adapted well, and got "off the ground", but many who stayed in these quarters just transformed them into ghettos. We're now having the second and even third generation of people there, having French nationality, but living cut off from the normal French society.

Because of fear of being stamped racist - and in fact because they didn't care - for many many years the authorities didn't intervene there, these quarters have been zones of non-law, where gangs of youngsters make the law ; and the police rarely shows up there. The French state just pumps social security money into them, to try to keep them calm.

Sarkozy (minister of interior) now wants to get "law and order" back into these quarters, and sometimes tries to do it the hard way ; the gangs of youngsters there don't want to see that, and want to defend their territories.
The car burning activities have been tolerated for years in these suburbs ; the native French don't care much (they don't live there), and it is a way for the gangs of youngsters to show their "power" and their rivalry.

So it is not so much a "popular revolt", it is some law-less situation in immigrant ghettos that has been going on for years and where Sarkozy now wants to get law and order back.
 
  • #33
vanesch said:
This is in fact the main point: France has a rather large population of North-African immigrants - mainly due to the French adventure in Algeria, and the huge number of people they got from there after their letting go of Algeria in a very ugly conflict. The problem is that in the 60-ies and 70-ies, french authorities found no better idea than to lump all these immigrants into big big new-build suburbs (so that their nice city-centers would not get "polluted" by these populations), without any thought about making them integrate French society. So they had big new immigrant quarters at the outsides of the big cities (especially Paris, but also Lyon, Lille, ...), and had them live off social security grants. Some of these immigrants adapted well, and got "off the ground", but many who stayed in these quarters just transformed them into ghettos. We're now having the second and even third generation of people there, having French nationality, but living cut off from the normal French society.
Because of fear of being stamped racist - and in fact because they didn't care - for many many years the authorities didn't intervene there, these quarters have been zones of non-law, where gangs of youngsters make the law ; and the police rarely shows up there. The French state just pumps social security money into them, to try to keep them calm.
Sarkozy (minister of interior) now wants to get "law and order" back into these quarters, and sometimes tries to do it the hard way ; the gangs of youngsters there don't want to see that, and want to defend their territories.
The car burning activities have been tolerated for years in these suburbs ; the native French don't care much (they don't live there), and it is a way for the gangs of youngsters to show their "power" and their rivalry.
So it is not so much a "popular revolt", it is some law-less situation in immigrant ghettos that has been going on for years and where Sarkozy now wants to get law and order back.
Sounds like Oakland, CA a decade ago.
[edit] JK :-p
 
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  • #34
loseyourname said:
Are you sure that capitalism is the problem?
The thread got way off topic on a rant on capitalism that had no connection to the topic. If you want the deleted posts moved to a thread on capitalism, let me know.

Please see Vanesh's post on the causes of the current problems.
 
  • #35
Skyhunter said:
Sounds like Oakland, CA a decade ago.
[edit] JK :-p

Yes, except most of the slums and housing projects in the USA are in the inner cities rather than the suburbs.
 
  • #36
nevermind... obviously everyone's more content to argue about economics than to address the issue.
 
  • #37
Smurf said:
nevermind... obviously everyone's more content to argue about economics than to address the issue.
It seems it is the impoverishment of the immigrants living in these enclaves that is the issue.
 
  • #38
Art said:
It seems it is the impoverishment of the immigrants living in these enclaves that is the issue.
That and the way that society has ostracized them, they aren't even considered second class citizens, they're dirt. The French have a word for them.

It seems the French no longer have a choice in ignoring them. I hope it's not too late.
 
  • #39
edward said:
Yes, except most of the slums and housing projects in the USA are in the inner cities rather than the suburbs.
Not necessarily - I could take you to many cities and show you slums in what used to suburbs. When I lived in Houston, I used to go into parts of town that looked like Beirut during the civil war. I was probably the only 'white' person around for miles, except those passing by on the interstate (freeway) or main roads.
 
  • #40
Evo said:
That and the way that society has ostracized them, they aren't even considered second class citizens, they're dirt. The French have a word for them.
It seems the French no longer have a choice in ignoring them. I hope it's not too late.
I wouldn't imagine the French Interior Minister, Sarkozy, calling them "rabble" and "scum" whose "crime ridden streets need to be cleaned with a power hose" is helping to calm the situation.

Although to give some credit to Sarkozy I believe he wanted to adopt a carrot and stick approach to handling these immigrant areas with affirmative action programs to help them integrate, hand in hand with a strong law and order policy but his cabinet colleagues over-ruled this and decided to use only the stick.
 
  • #41
Art said:
I wouldn't imagine the French Interior Minister, Sarkozy, calling them "rabble" and "scum" whose "crime ridden streets need to be cleaned with a power hose" is helping to calm the situation.
Although to give some credit to Sarkozy I believe he wanted to adopt a carrot and stick approach to handling these immigrant areas with affirmative action programs to help them integrate, hand in hand with a strong law and order policy but his cabinet colleagues over-ruled this and decided to use only the stick.

Yes, those were a few unhappy wordings :eek:
I think that *in principle* Sarkozy's approach is the right one: he claims that a majority of people in these suburbs who have social difficulties only WANT law and order restored, it being the first of conditions for them to work their way up, and that it is a rather small minority of youngsters in gangs who cause all that trouble, and make life miserable (more miserable) for the majority of people there, and he wants to get after them.
The problem is that getting after young immigrants quickly gets you the stamp of a racist - one of the reasons many of his predecessors didn't want to get involved and let go. Also, as you pointed out, the carrot is missing. Most of these youngsters there have no hope of being hired somewhere for a job, DO get social security money, and have a perspective of life to just sit at home, watch TV, and do nothing and remain a second-class citizen OR be a hero in the local gang and make a lot of money in "parallel economy" (drug traffic). As the last action has not really been punished for many years, that sounds like an attractive option for some. But one should do something about the first option too.
 
  • #42
Evo said:
The thread got way off topic on a rant on capitalism that had no connection to the topic. If you want the deleted posts moved to a thread on capitalism, let me know.
Please see Vanesh's post on the causes of the current problems.
Yes, Evo, I would like to see my response to loseyourname somewhere at least. I don't think it fair that it just be deleted - that makes it look like I cannot respond to loseyourname's arguments, which gives the false impression that loseyourname's arguments are stronger than arguments against his position. This is bias.

EDIT: You guys don't seem to realize what is at stake here. Listen, I'm an expert in this field. I am not an expert in science, although I am studying maths. But I am an expert in this field (social science). Whether you believe this or not, I have been studying this topic for over twenty years. I analysed what is happening in France using what is called a "modernist perspective" in the specialist field of the Social Sciences. If you refuse to give credance to the science in "Social Science", that is pretty arrogant (IMHO). You should not delete my arguments; they attempt to provide an analysis of what is happening politically. I am trying give a social scientist's analysis. I am not surprised that social science is so denigrated, though...

EDIT 2: Actually, if my response to loseyourname gets put in another thread, it will lose its strength of analysis as it will be decontextualised. I guess this is positive proof that there is no longer any free speech on PF. Ok, guys, "G'day" then... Have fun in this new world you're helping create. I hope you enjoy the dumbo fruits of theories like "Intelligent Design" as well. I don't care - you very erroneously think that the current US adminstration's ideology will determine the future of the planet. Maybe it will - but if this is the case, then we (humanity) won't last very long (*cough* extinction - not only of 'lower animal and fauna species', but humans as well). Either way, farewell. S*** happens, as they say 'down under'. Au revoir... and best of luck:smile:

alex
 
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  • #43
alexandra said:
Yes, Evo, I would like to see my response to loseyourname somewhere at least. I don't think it fair that it just be deleted - that makes it look like I cannot respond to loseyourname's arguments, which gives the false impression that loseyourname's arguments are stronger than arguments against his position. This is bias.
Actually Loseyourname's post was supposed to be deleted also since it was in response to your intial post on capitalism.

Off topic posts will be deleted, no matter the content. They can be made into a separate thread if they have substance, which is why I asked if anyone would like a thread made from the posts. Alexandra, you know no one here is singling you out.

I'm creating a thread called Capitalism, let me know if you want it renamed.
 
  • #44
Ted Stanger has an interesting perspective on the riots. Basically the young non-Europeans are marginalized and disenfranchised.

Understanding the Paris Riots
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4991726

All Things Considered, November 6, 2005 · Ted Stanger, a former Newsweek correspondent and writer on French affairs, discusses the grievances behind the French riots and the political ramifications of the violence.


Amid Ongoing Riots, Chirac Vows to Restore Order
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4991723

All Things Considered, November 6, 2005 · French president Jacques Chirac breaks his silence on the rioting that has shaken his nation for more than a week. Chirac vows to restore order but also pledges to support equal opportunity for all.

In poor suburbs across France, young people, mainly of North African descent, have been torching vehicles, schools and police stations.

Real audio required
 
  • #45
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/

Rioters fired shots at police in an 11th night of riots in France on Sunday, injuring 10 policemen, two of them seriously, police said.

This looks like it's getting out of hand... i think some skulls need to start being bashed in... a little police brutality perhaps...
 
  • #46
Pengwuino said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/



This looks like it's getting out of hand... i think some skulls need to start being bashed in... a little police brutality perhaps...
You advocate more violence?

My guess from your tuff guy persona is that you never had anyone give you a good ass-whoopin, or else you have had few too many put on you.
 
  • #47
Pengwuino said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/



This looks like it's getting out of hand... i think some skulls need to start being bashed in... a little police brutality perhaps...
Did you read about the 50 year old woman on crutches, trying to get off a bus, they doused her with gasoline and set her on fire.
 
  • #48
Evo said:
Did you read about the 50 year old woman on crutches, trying to get off a bus, they doused her with gasoline and set her on fire.
That's disgusting!
And cars were burned in Berlin too now.
What do the right wingers on this board think: is this terrorism? Or a justified revolte against an evil socialist government? And if it's terrorism , which country should be invaded?
 
  • #49
Evo said:
Did you read about the 50 year old woman on crutches, trying to get off a bus, they doused her with gasoline and set her on fire.
Yes, that was horrific. It was around about that point I stopped giving one about their living conditions - at least they weren't being set on fire.

This whole thing is starting to appear more than discontent. The fact that it's happening in so many places around the country, all at once, seems a little too organised.

The so-called 'motive' - the two boys electrocuted - is not even close to a likely reason for the violence to increase. Now hundreds of cars, trucks, buses, etc are being set alight each night, and the rioters are taking the battle straight to the riot police.

The rioting is getting nearer and nearer to the capital too. The question is, if the police can't contain the violence in these suburbs, what happens if it reaches central Paris, which could feasibly be very soon?

The other worry, for me, is that the same environment could easily spring up in the UK. It has a lower proportion of Arab immigrants and the New Labour government hasn't been quite right-wing enough to cause quite so much discontentment in the Muslim youth, but it is definitely there. We also have the same gang warfare that caused the zero tolerance approach in the French suburbs earlier this year which, I think, is the real reason for the exponential increase in rioting there.

This is pretty bad because it is the exact hand needed by the European right-wing parties. The BNP, a white supremecist party, are increasing in popularity in some cities in Britain, their main goal being the deportation of non-white immigrants and the ceasation of further immigration. The next generation of immigrant families would not doubt be next, and so on. Something like this in the UK would be all their Christmasses coming at once.

In fact, there is some credibility to the notion that they are provoking gang warfare in the UK. In Birmingham, a rumour was put around the black community that a black girl was gang raped by an Arabic gang. A few days ago, thirty graves, all for Arabs, were destroyed and/or toppled and a note was left claiming to be the work of Black Nation. Given that nothing else has really kicked off too much, it does look like both could be the work of some white supremacist group.

This may end up being quite important, beyond death toll and car insurance.
 
  • #50
10 days? Little beyond "blowing off steam." Someone got a line on French nukes --- running a "social" distraction to cover an "operation." Or, hopefully, something a little less sinister --- springing a "key" detainee no one's realized is "key?"
 

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