Is the Velocity of Electron Spin Calculable Using Classical Models?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the feasibility of calculating the velocity of electron spin using classical models, particularly the idea of treating the electron as a rigid body. Participants explore the implications of such models and their compatibility with established physics, including quantum field theory (QFT).

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the validity of modeling the electron as a rigid body, suggesting it is controversial or even impossible based on historical findings.
  • Others argue that treating the electron as a spinning top leads to contradictions with experimental results.
  • A participant references a book on the electron, but others challenge its credibility and suggest that it contains speculative content.
  • There is a discussion about the gyromagnetic ratio of the electron, with some noting that classical models fail to explain its value and that the Dirac equation provides a more accurate description.
  • Some participants assert that the electron is a point particle in QFT, emphasizing that classical models cannot adequately represent its properties.
  • One participant finds the modern derivation of the Dirac equation intuitive, while acknowledging the limitations of classical models.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement on the validity of classical models for the electron, with some asserting that such models are impossible and others defending their exploration. There is no consensus on the appropriateness of the rigid body model or the referenced literature.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the unresolved nature of the electron's properties when modeled classically, the dependence on definitions of spin and rigidity, and the speculative nature of some literature referenced in the discussion.

Dilema
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TL;DR
What is the tangent velocity, of a spinning electron?
Addressing to electron as being rigid body that precesse is probably controversial. Are there any attempts to stick to that model and to calculate its quantize tangent velocity?
 
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Dilema said:
Addressing to electron as being rigid body that precesse is probably controversial.

It's not just "controversial", it's wrong. There is no workable model of an electron as a spinning rigid body with a definite size.
 
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Treating the electron as a spinning top leads immediately to violent disagreements with experiment
 
Please refer to the book "What is the Electron?" Publisher: C. Roy Keys Inc. Editors: Volodimir Simulik.
 
If it says that electron spin around its axis then it's wrong and you shouldn't read it.
 
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It is not that simple. It is suggesting (as far as I could understated) there is a complex dynamics within a spinning elementary particle. Specifically I succeed to fish out that the charge in the electron, moves in the speed of light. However I might generalized things and it is better you will refer to this book.
 
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Dilema said:
It is not that simple.

It is. Electron is not spinning around any axis. It is a point particle in QFT.
 
It doesn't sound like you are asking a question so much as promoting a book. Which is it?
 
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Actually it has been started as a question and then I refereed to the literature. I hoped that you will refer me to a paper instead.
 
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  • #10
I see you didn't answer my question. Are you asking us or telling us?
 
  • #11
Dilema said:
Summary: What is the tangent velocity, of a spinning electron?

Addressing to electron as being rigid body that precesse is probably controversial. Are there any attempts to stick to that model and to calculate its quantize tangent velocity?
It's not controversial but impossible, as is known since about 1909, when Born, Herglotz, and others showed that classical rigid bodies don't give reasonable models of "particles" or "extended bodies" at all.
 
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  • #12
weirdoguy said:
It is. Electron is not spinning around any axis. It is a point particle in QFT.
One has to caution that if you say "it's a point particle in QFT" that this is slang of physicists to say, it's described by a fundamental quantum field, in this case a quantized Dirac field (describing electrons and positrons as massive fermions with spin 1/2).
 
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  • #13
Dilema said:
Actually it has been started as a question and then I refereed to the literature. I hoped that you will refer me to a paper instead.

The book you referenced already contains papers. Presumably that's why you referenced it.

However, as far as I can tell (which is not much since I don't have the book and only brief excerpts are visible online), all of the papers in the book are highly speculative, and I can't even tell if any of them were published in journals or have any connection to other literature. So I would not place a great deal of confidence in anything in the book. Particularly not since it appears to contradict everything else in the literature about the electron.
 
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  • #14
A big obstacle in making a spinning object model of the electron is the gyromagnetic ratio, which is approximately 2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromagnetic_ratio

The gyromagnetic ratio is the ratio of the magnetic moment to the angular momentum of the object, times a constant.

If the electric charge of an object is distributed like its mass, then the gyromagnetic ratio is defined to be 1.

For the electron, it is hard to find an intuitive reason why the charge would reside farther from the center than the mass.

The Dirac equation predicts the gyromagnetic ratio 2, and QED corrections predict it right to 12 decimal places.

No one has found an intuitive physical model for the Dirac equation. At this stage, we must consider the Dirac electron as a quantum of a field. We cannot explain its spin and magnetic moment with any classical model of a spinning body.
 
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  • #15
Well, I find the modern derivation of the Dirac equation very inutitive: It's the most natural representation of a massive particle of spin 1/2 allowing for spatial reflextions to be a symmetry additionally to providing an irreducible representation of the proper orthochronous Poincare group with spin 1/2.

Of course it's true: There's no classical fully consistent model of point particles whatsoever. The best description we have is indeed relativistic QFT, and nothing else!
 
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