B Is there a forum where people can share and discuss features on Mars?

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The discussion centers around the search for potential fossils in Mars images and the desire for a forum where enthusiasts can share and analyze these features. Participants express skepticism about the likelihood of finding fossils, emphasizing that no reputable scientists support the idea that large life forms existed on Mars. The conversation highlights the fun of exploring Mars images, comparing it to cloud watching, while acknowledging that most findings are likely just rocks. There is a call for expert analysis to validate or debunk claims about intriguing features in the images. Overall, the thread reflects a mix of curiosity and skepticism regarding the search for signs of life on Mars.
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There are hundreds of thousands of images of Mars. In my spare time, I've browsed through many, and have kept track of the most interesting ones (to my eyes). So of course, I would be interested to discuss the features I found interesting with people that are more qualified to analyze them.

I know PF isn't the place, since you can only discuss published research here, but I am wondering if there is a place people can go and do things such as ask about and discuss features they find in images of Mars.
 
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Jarvis323 said:
There are hundreds of thousands of images of Mars. In my spare time, I've browsed through many, and have kept track of the most interesting ones (to my eyes). So of course, I would be interested to discuss the features I found interesting with people that are more qualified to analyze them.

I know PF isn't the place, since you can only discuss published research here, but I am wondering if there is a place people can go and do things such as ask about and discuss features they find in images of Mars.
Well, as long as you don't want to discuss the pyramid thingy or the Mickey Mouse craters, this forum here would seem to be okay. :smile:
 
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berkeman said:
Well, as long as you don't want to discuss the pyramid thingy or the Mickey Mouse craters, this forum here would seem to be okay. :smile:
Thanks Berkman. :smile:

I should have been more clear. Some of the images have features which appear to be potential fossils. My understanding is that it is not unrealistic that a fossil may be found in an image on Mars, but unless the images were exceptionally compelling, all we could do is speculate. And such speculation would not (in most cases) be worthy of publication, or discussion on PF. And if there are fossils visible in Mars images, most of them are probably not exceptionally compelling.

But for someone like me, who is just bored sitting at home alone for nearly a year during a pandemic, searching Mars images for signs of fossils is still fun. It invokes a childish sense of adventure. And even for someone like me, who is very skeptical by nature, finding some potentially interesting images is a little bit exciting.

It's like if you are searching for arrowheads, and you find some rocks that look like they might have been worked on, potential practice rocks or something, you still want to pick them up and ask someone, "hey do you think this could have been something". I could ask some people, and they would say it's a magic rock from a lost civilization that has a blue aura, and it might be a gateway to another dimension. I know where I can get those kinds of answers. Or I could ask an expert and they might say, probably not, or it looks like someone might have chipped at it. But I'm not sure where I can go and get those.

I guess even a skeptical discussion here would be off limits given the subject matter.
 
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Jarvis323 said:
Some of the images have features which appear to be potential fossils.
Interesting. If so, there will almost certainly be peer-reviewed journal articles about them, or at least some NASA publications (although NASA is becoming a deprecated source here at the PF lately based on some questionable publications).
Jarvis323 said:
I guess even a skeptical discussion here would be off limits given the subject matter.
Yeah, without some good published articles to start the discussion, speculation about the images probably would not be a good thread start.
 
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Um, just for fun, and before any other Mentors click into this thread, can you post a couple images of what you think could be "fossils" with measurement scales included? Shh, don't tell nobody... :wink:
 
berkeman said:
with measurement scales included

That's not a turtle. That's Gamera!
 
berkeman said:
Um, just for fun, and before any other Mentors click into this thread, can you post a couple images of what you think could be "fossils" with measurement scales included? Shh, don't tell nobody... :wink:

I can't give measurement scales unfortunately. The images are all from the spirit rover. I'm not saying hey look proof of something. Just, hey look a cool rock, is it possible it is a fossil?

https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/multimedia/raw/

This one is from the panorama camera, set 294. In the middle right, there is what I thought looks like it could possibly be petrified wood.

https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/all/2/p/294/2P152473052EFF8992P2422R1M1.JPG

spirit-p294-3.JPG


This one (below) is from the same set, although the coral looking thing actually resembles a ton of non-coral looking rocks with the same kind of geological structure.

https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/all/2/p/294/2P152471896EFF8992P2422R2M1.HTML

1598926985675.png


This one (below) is from the navigation camera, set 65. It just kind of looks like it could be something. But after going through a lot of images from this area, there are a lot of rocks with such interesting looking features that are more obviously just rocks.

https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/all/2/n/065/2N132143157EFF1600P1835L0M1.JPG

spirit-n65-2-outline.JPG
 
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Jarvis323 said:
Just, hey look a cool rock, is it possible it is a fossil?

https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/multimedia/raw/

no fossils there, nothing that even remotely looks like one

likewise for these 2 photos that you posted
just lots of rocks

1598929512989.png


1598929527393.png


cant even imagine why you would think they could be fossils ??Dave
 
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  • #10
davenn said:
no fossils there, nothing that even remotely looks like one

likewise for these 2 photos that you posted
just lots of rocks

View attachment 268688

View attachment 268689

cant even imagine why you would think they could be fossils ??Dave
I never said that last one looks like a fossil. I said it looks like a rock and not a gorilla.
 
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Though I know it's highly unlikely that you have found pieces of wood or animal fossils...it sure does look like that's what it is.

This could be like cloud watching for astronomers ("look, that rock looks like a gorilla!")
 
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  • #12
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  • #13
Motore said:
I don't see anything that looks like fossils, even if I squint my eyes really hard. That no scientist has found any fossils on Mars yet, although they are searching probably hundreds more photos, more closely with the appropriate software, just confirms that.
To me this just seems another case of patternicity or pareidolia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia#"Patternicity"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
Ok, but how do you explain this? LOL, just a joke.

marsAttacks.JPG


And this LOL,

1598948388429.png


And this little creature,

1598948669363.png


Yeah, Mars images, with all of the volcanic rocks and shadows are definitely ripe for patternicity and pareodolia. I think you can even make out the gorilla way in the background.
 
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  • #14
Jarvis323 said:
Some of the images have features which appear to be potential fossils. My understanding is that it is not unrealistic that a fossil may be found in an image on Mars...
Where do you get that understanding? My understanding is that there aren't any reputable scientists who believe that. More to the point, these missions spend hundreds of millions of dollars and one of the primary purposes is to search for signs of life. If there were even the tiniest chance one of these rocks could be a fossil laying out in the open, there's no reason NASA wouldn't task a day to roll a few meters over for a closer look, and to drill a hole in one. And further, if Mars had ever supported large animal life, to the extent that there would be fossils just laying out in the open, the soil itself would be rich with plant/animal material.
 
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  • #15
russ_watters said:
Where do you get that understanding? My understanding is that there aren't any reputable scientists who believe that. More to the point, these missions spend hundreds of millions of dollars and one of the primary purposes is to search for signs of life. If there were even the tiniest chance one of these rocks could be a fossil laying out in the open, there's no reason NASA wouldn't task a day to roll a few meters over for a closer look, and to drill a hole in one. And further, if Mars had ever supported large animal life, to the extent that there would be fossils just laying out in the open, the soil itself would be rich with plant/animal material.
My understanding is that the mainstream belief is that it is unlikely that large life existed on Mars (not impossible).

I mean, you can look through the images from the microscopic imager and see what they drilled into. It would technically have been outside of the mission statement to investigate potential fossils. I don't know how strictly they follow the stated mission. You would think that if they saw something, they would get a closer look. But keep in mind, there is a delay, and they have specific scientific goals. I don't how willing they would be to sidetrack the plan and backtrack to investigate a possible fossil (especially when it's considered an unlikely find)? I mean, according to you, for a person on the team to even suggest it, they would be crossing into non-credible scientist territory. And it's not like it would be easy to spot a potential fossil. It took me a long time, looking through thousands of images, to find a few that look intriguing to me. And I'm not saying they would be intriguing to an expert.

Maybe there is a reason why this image can be ruled out by an expert from being some kind of petrified wood. That's all I'm looking for, an expert analysis. Even if what you say is true, and it is pre-posterous that petrified wood on Mars could exist, or that such a thing would surely have been found already, I still want to see a scientific explanation or analysis if I can.

spirit234.JPG


russ_watters said:
And further, if Mars had ever supported large animal life, to the extent that there would be fossils just laying out in the open, the soil itself would be rich with plant/animal material.

I mean, there are places on Earth where fossils are laying out it the open, but the soil isn't obviously rich with plant/animal material. And Mars has changed quite a bit over the years.
 
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  • #16
Jarvis323 said:
I've browsed through many, and have kept track of the most interesting ones (to my eyes).
That can be good fun and so can cloud gazing on Earth. But before getting carried away, there is pretty strong evidence that conditions on Mars were only suitable for the appearance of life for the first billion years. During a similar time on Earth, the best we could do was very simple prokaryotic life. It took billions of years from that before eukaryotic life appeared here. Larger life forms have only been around for millions of years. So gorillas are highly unlikely.
There's nothing wrong with 'wanting' something but I have to question the motivation. (I speak as one who was totally convinced by Erich Von Daniken in my youth.)
Speaking of published photographs from space and spending time looking at them, there is free access to TB of astronomical data. It's possible to be the first to locate some asteroids and comets. That would be real evidence of a real thing. You can even give it a name.
 
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  • #17
sophiecentaur said:
That can be good fun and so can cloud gazing on Earth. But before getting carried away, there is pretty strong evidence that conditions on Mars were only suitable for the appearance of life for the first billion years. During a similar time on Earth, the best we could do was very simple prokaryotic life. It took billions of years from that before eukaryotic life appeared here. Larger life forms have only been around for millions of years. So gorillas are highly unlikely.
There's nothing wrong with 'wanting' something but I have to question the motivation. (I speak as one who was totally convinced by Erich Von Daniken in my youth.)
Speaking of published photographs from space and spending time looking at them, there is free access to TB of astronomical data. It's possible to be the first to locate some asteroids and comets. That would be real evidence of a real thing. You can even give it a name.
I hear you. Note the gorilla image is intended as a joke. It's just a neat optical illusion. I still keep an open mind about the possibilities for ancient life on Mars. There is evidence it was only suitable for the first billion years, but there is uncertainty, and I think that "suitable for life" is still an open scientific question. I think that I'll have more confidence to be dismissive in the near future, since there are some upcoming missions which I think will tell us a lot more.

That does sound fun to search for asteroids and comets. I've got a background in computer science and a little experience in computer vision. It sounds like a hobby I could get into. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
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  • #18
russ_watters said:
there's no reason NASA wouldn't task a day to roll a few meters over for a closer look, and to drill a hole in one.

It's a conspiracy I tells ya!

Thus far, people have been saying it's unlikely to be petrified wood because of the wood. It's also unlikely because it has to petrify. How exactly? Mars is quite silica-poor.
 
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Jarvis323 said:
It would technically have been outside of the mission statement to investigate potential fossils. I don't know how strictly they follow the stated mission. You would think that if they saw something, they would get a closer look. But keep in mind, there is a delay, and they have specific scientific goals. I don't how willing they would be to sidetrack the plan and backtrack to investigate a possible fossil (especially when it's considered an unlikely find)?
I don't think any of that is true either, and doesn't really make sense. The original goal of the Spirit and Opportunity rovers was pretty much exactly to investigate the general area around their landing sites, looking for interesting rocks to examine more closely. The idea of a destination to travel to only came up later, when it was recognized that they were going to last many times longer than the original 90 day mission (40x longer!). But even still, the journey was just as if not more important than the destination; stopping to look at interesting rocks was a primary mission objective.
I mean, according to you, for a person on the team to even suggest it, they would be crossing into non-credible scientist territory.
It is, yes. It's really out there. You didn't answer my question before about where you got your "understanding", but I think it is safe to say you didn't get it from a reputable scientific source, right?
And it's not like it would be easy to spot a potential fossil. It took me a long time, looking through thousands of images, to find a few that look intriguing to me.
It doesn't seem like as long if you have a full-time team dedicated to nothing but examining rover photos to look for and examine interesting rocks.
Even if what you say is true, and it is pre-posterous that petrified wood on Mars could exist, or that such a thing would surely have been found already, I still want to see a scientific explanation or analysis if I can.

View attachment 268702
Part of the problem with this line of investigation is that there is no investigation. It's just a photo. Since the rover didn't go over to that rock, scrape it off and analyze it to determine exactly what the composition is, there's literally nothing that can be said about it besides "it looks like petrified wood". Even if it is, it can't be proven at this point.
I mean, there are places on Earth where fossils are laying out it the open, but the soil isn't obviously rich with plant/animal material. And Mars has changed quite a bit over the years.
Yes, the soils and even the rocks themselves are generally rich with plant/animal material. That's what a fossil is. Fossils are found in sedimentary rock, which is all the detritus of an active ecosystem mashed together and solidified into a rock. Some are mostly minerals (sandstone, shale), whereas some are almost nothing but fossils (limestone). I'm not a geologist, but my understanding is you could drill into basically any sedimentary rock on Earth and find at least trace organic material.

Since this line of investigation can't by nature produce anything more than looking for shapes in clouds, as @sophiecentaur termed it, I think perhaps your time would be better spent learning about geology, which would teach you why what you are suggesting isn't reasonable. So, since that was your original question, I guess my suggestion is to find a geology forum and ask questions about the nature of rocks and fossils, including why the rocks that they did examine tell us that the rocks they didn't examine are extremely unlikely to be fossils.
 
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  • #21
russ_watter said:
... the rocks that they did examine tell us that the rocks they didn't examine are extremely unlikely to be fossils.
Can you explain this further? I've only read a limited amount (e.g. wiki articles and pop-science articles) about the area, and the geologic findings.
 
  • #22
russ_watters said:
I don't think any of that is true either, and doesn't really make sense. The original goal of the Spirit and Opportunity rovers was pretty much exactly to investigate the general area around their landing sites, looking for interesting rocks to examine more closely. The idea of a destination to travel to only came up later, when it was recognized that they were going to last many times longer than the original 90 day mission (40x longer!). But even still, the journey was just as if not more important than the destination; stopping to look at interesting rocks was a primary mission objective.

I am skeptical of this. They spend a lot of money on the mission. They spend years planning it, developing testable hypothesis securing funding, and equipping the rover with the tools to test those hypothesis. They carefully pick the landing site. And from the time of launch, along the journey through space, to the landing, and in the first days of exploring, they are crossing their fingers hoping something doesn't go wrong, and they will be able to find what they're looking for.

To think they would go on a hypothesis-less side mission, without even carrying the equipment needed to test a could be hypothesis of something like fossilized wood, on the first day. It just seems extremely unlikely and irresponsible.
 
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  • #23
"Um, shouldn't we check that out?"
"Nope. Not in the mission plan."

1598995961298.png
 
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  • #24
Vanadium 50 said:
"Um, shouldn't we check that out?"
"Nope. Not in the mission plan."

View attachment 268718
Alternative: "Hey look, it's Marvin, let's take a look." ... "Darn, turned out to be an illusion, and now the rover is broken. Oh well, there's always next time. I still have a job right?"

It's not like they are sitting on couches with video game controllers smoking joints, trying to figure out what to check out next.
 
  • #26
Jarvis323 said:
Can you explain this further? I've only read a limited amount (e.g. wiki articles and pop-science articles) about the area, and the geologic findings.
I'm not sure I know what you are asking, or maybe it is just very broad. V50 pointed out that petrification of wood takes a specific chemical process and mineral, which doesn't exist in high concentrations on Mars, which would make the process unlikely to occur (even if there was wood to be petrified). Similarly, different types of rocks may or may not create fossils. Geology is a big/real science, it isn't just looking at pictures of rocks.
Jarvis323 said:
I am skeptical of this. They spend a lot of money on the mission. They spend years planning it, developing testable hypothesis securing funding, and equipping the rover with the tools to test those hypothesis. They carefully pick the landing site. And from the time of launch, along the journey through space, to the landing, and in the first days of exploring, they are crossing their fingers hoping something doesn't go wrong, and they will be able to find what they're looking for.

To think they would go on a hypothesis-less side mission, without even carrying the equipment needed to test a could be hypothesis of something like fossilized wood, on the first day. It just seems extremely unlikely and irresponsible.
To be frank, it concerns me that you would spend a substantial amount of time looking at photos of Mars rocks for ones that look like fossils - an activity about as useful as looking at patterns in clouds - and not put even the smallest amount of time into researching the mission objectives of the rover that took the pictures. What you are describing is basically the entire point of the rover missions. What, exactly, do you think the mission goals were, if not to examine the rocks it saw nearby? Do you know what tools the rovers had and what would be needed if they happened upon a fossil? Have you researched this at all? I have more info/links to share, but I really want you to put some real thought/effort into this and it doesn't seem like you are. Why don't you find and post the *actual* mission objectives of the rovers and explain exactly why you don't think driving the rover 10m to get a closer look fits those goals.

This type of mission isn't very much different from what the astronauts did on the moon. You might want to look up the HBO series "From The Earth to the Moon" and watch Episode 10, "Galileo was Right". It's about how the astronauts were trained to be geologists and how a key mission objective was literally just walking around on the moon looking for interesting rocks to examine. You can't do geology from orbit; it's done on the ground.
 
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  • #27
The position that "they will not go and investigate an interesting rock" in untenable because when presented with one, that's exactly what they did.
 
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  • #28
russ_watters said:
I'm not sure I know what you are asking, or maybe it is just very broad. V50 pointed out that petrification of wood takes a specific chemical process and mineral, which doesn't exist in high concentrations on Mars, which would make the process unlikely to occur (even if there was wood to be petrified). Similarly, different types of rocks may or may not create fossils. Geology is a big/real science, it isn't just looking at pictures of rocks.

To be frank, it concerns me that you would spend a substantial amount of time looking at photos of Mars rocks for ones that look like fossils - an activity about as useful as looking at patterns in clouds - and not put even the smallest amount of time into researching the mission objectives of the rover that took the pictures. What you are describing is basically the entire point of the rover missions. What, exactly, do you think the mission goals were, if not to examine the rocks it saw nearby? Do you know what tools the rovers had and what would be needed if they happened upon a fossil? Have you researched this at all?

This type of mission isn't very much different from what the astronauts did on the moon. You might want to look up the HBO series "From The Earth to the Moon" and watch Episode 10, "Galileo was Right". It's about how the astronauts were trained to be geologists and how a key mission objective was literally just walking around on the moon looking for interesting rocks to examine. You can't do geology from orbit; it's done on the ground.
I think he was joking. Mars rocks actually have an unusually high concentration of silica.
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=4799

I did look at the mission objectives.
 
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  • #29
Vanadium 50 said:
The position that "they will not go and investigate an interesting rock" in untenable because when presented with one, that's exactly what they did.
That just has a wiki page because it was particularly interesting. I have a list of the mission objectives up, which I'm not going to post because I want @Jarvis323 to look for it himself; of the 7 objectives, "go and investigate an interesting rock" is basically a vague paraphrase of 5 of them. It's most of why the rovers were sent, even if not every rock got a name.
 
  • #30
Jarvis323 said:
Mars rocks actually have an unusually high concentration of silica.

No, they have a low concentrations of silica. The link discusses rocks that are unusual, precisely because they are rich in silica. Compared to other Mars rocks.
 
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  • #31
Reading the last few posts I can't decide what the argument is about. The mission cost a lot of money and would need extremely compelling evidence to deviate from the plan. We don't know what the plan actually was, of course but it would be surprising if it didn't have provision for assessing pretty well every 'likely looking' image and considering (back on Earth) looking deeper. But it would be very foolish to spend rover time chasing hares all over the place at the expense of getting the information they went to find. It's lucky that equipment seems to have been made to a high enough standard to keep going a lot longer than the stated lifespan. (Poor old Beagle never got a chance to show what it could have done.)

Funding is a major problem with space expeditions and hinting at the possibility of finding evidence of past or present life must be a very good selling point. Just reading some of the enthusiastic stuff we can read on PF (a relatively level headed group) shows the desire to find we are not alone (and all that stuff).

But we can be pretty sure that anything found on Mars will be nothing like as exciting as some of us expect. It will merely answer the very basic question about whether Earth is truly unique. No green men and, no gorillas. No crawling bugs - just some shapes in rocks that could be similar to fossilised single celled lifeforms found on Earth.
 
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  • #32
Jarvis323 said:
Alternative: "Hey look, it's Marvin, let's take a look." ... "Darn, turned out to be an illusion, and now the rover is broken. Oh well, there's always next time. I still have a job right?"

It's not like they are sitting on couches with video game controllers smoking joints, trying to figure out what to check out next.
So do you want to learn about geology and what the Mars rovers did and why or do you prefer to fantasize about ways to keep your potential fossils? Because your stance here seems to be that if you don't learn why it couldn't be a fossil, then it remains plausible that it could be a fossil. That attitude is hostile toward learning and we won't be humoring it here.
 
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  • #33
sophiecentaur said:
We don't know what the plan actually was, of course...
What? We're talking about a NASA mission here, not a ballistic missile submarine. The mission plan is public knowledge for anyone who chooses to google it!
 
  • #34
russ_watters said:
So do you want to learn about geology and what the Mars rovers did and why or do you prefer to fantasize about ways to keep your potential fossils? Because your stance here seems to be that if you don't learn why it couldn't be a fossil, then it remains plausible that it could be a fossil. That attitude is hostile toward learning and we won't be humoring it here.
I don't get where you are coming from with this kind of aggression. I stated from the beginning that I was looking for scientific explanations. I've instead gotten aggressively interrogated about why I would want to do such a stupid thing in the first place.
 
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  • #35
russ_watters said:
What? We're talking about a NASA mission here, not a ballistic missile submarine. The mission plan is public knowledge for anyone who chooses to google it!
How is speculation about what they would choose to get a closer look at relevant anyways? We can see what they looked at. If I see something that they didn't get a closer look at, it could be be because they didn't notice it, or it wasn't compelling enough, or whatever. If they noticed it, and analyzed the image, and made a conclusion about what they think it is or might be, then great. That's what I'm curious about. And obviously everything needed to find this is available. So why is what I'm looking for impossible to get?
 
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  • #36
Jarvis323 said:
I don't get where you are coming from with this kind of aggression and projection. I stated from the beginning that I was looking for scientific explanations. I've instead gotten aggressively interrogated about why I would want to do such a stupid thing in the first place.
You're coming up with excuses for why they wouldn't investigate an interesting rock and apparently not listening to being told repeatedly that "investigate an interesting rock" is most of the purpose of the mission. It's frustrating - you seem to be putting your effort into avoiding learning.
 
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  • #37
russ_watters said:
You're coming up with excuses for why they wouldn't investigate an interesting rock and apparently not listening to being told repeatedly that "investigate an interesting rock" is most of the purpose of the mission. It's frustrating - you seem to be putting your effort into avoiding learning.
I'm not interested in arguing, and despite what it seems like, I am interested in learning. I'll concede this one to you, I guess they would go investigate. And maybe I read the mission statements too literally.
 
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  • #38
Jarvis323 said:
How is speculation about what they would choose to get a closer look at relevant anyways? We can see what they looked at. If I see something that they didn't get a closer look at, it could be be because they didn't notice it, or it wasn't compelling enough, or whatever. If they noticed it, and analyzed the image, and made a conclusion about what they think it is or might be, then great. That's what I'm curious about. And obviously everything needed to find this is available. So why is what I'm looking for impossible to get?
Big picture understanding should be easier to find and learn and more useful than specifics about a single rock of the thousands a rover took pictures of. I'm not sure if that granular level of detail is available online, but there is probably an archive somewhere, where a scientist wrote a short analysis about every significant rock in every photo the rovers took. It'd be a million pages of analysis, and there's probably a few sentences about that specific rock. But finding it would be a daunting challenge.

Heck, did you look at the first link I posted? In it is a photo that looks very much like your "petrified wood" to me...

...someone in a geology forum could probably confirm.
 
  • #39
Jarvis323 said:
And maybe I read the mission statements to literally.
Well, what mission statements have you read? Maybe we can fix that.
 
  • #41
Jarvis323 said:
I read the wikipedia page on the spirit rover and Gusev crater, and I skimmed this paper.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2002JE002026

There is a section about specific hypotheses:

4. Testable Hypotheses for MER
[35] Spirit's suite of sensors and imaging systems are anticipated to provide insight into the depositional and soil formation processes that have occurred in Gusev Crater [Squyres et al., 2003]. Integrated observations that will be key for assessing the nature of past and present geological processes and environments include geochemistry, mineralogy and microtextural information obtained from rocks and soils. While lacustrine processes may have supplied significant material to Gusev, volcanic, fluvial [Kuzmin et al., 2000], aeolian [Greeley et al., 2003], and glacial processes [Grin and Cabrol, 1997] are likely to have contributed material too. The basic rock and soil characteristics that may be addressed with the Athena instrument payload in testing the various depositional hypotheses are reviewed in the following section.

4.1. Main Hypotheses
[36] Data from the Viking, MGS, and MO missions have allowed several main hypotheses (Table 2) to emerge that attempt to explain the spectral and albedo characteristics of surface material and the geomorphology observed in Gusev. Each main hypothesis carries a set of subhypotheses that require in situ measurements for either accepting or rejecting the subhypotheses. The variations of each subhypotheses are not mutually exclusive and in some cases overlap each other.

Table 2. Main and Subhypotheses on the Origin of the Sediments and Material in Gusev Landing Ellipsea
Main Hypotheses for Sediments OriginSubhypothesesOrigin
1. Lacustrine1.1. perennial lake 1.2. episodic lake1.1.1/1.2.1. precipitation 1.1.2/1.2.2. groundwater 1.1.3/1.2.3. hydrothermal water 1.1.4/1.2.4. glacial meltwater 1.1.5/1.2.5. combination of two or more of the above sources due to changing conditions through time
2. Fluvial2.1. runoff 2.2. outflow from intravalley lake2.1.1/2.2.1. precipitation 2.1.2/2.2.2. groundwater 2.1.3/2.2.3. hydrothermal water 2.1.4/2.2.4. glacial meltwater 2.1.5/2.2.5. combination of two or more of the above sources due to changing conditions through time
3. Glacial3.1. glacier3.1.1. local snow and ice packs 3.1.2. regional glaciation
3.2. ice‐covered stream3.2.1. free water underneath the ice until the water supply ceased 3.2.2. progressive complete freezing down of the water
4. Volcanic4.1. plastic flowb4.1.1. hyperfluid lava 4.1.2. viscuous lava 4.1.3. pyroclasts and ashes are filling Gusev basin
5. “Exotic” fluid5.1. CO2 flowc5.1.1. liquid CO2reservoir
5.2. clathrate flowc5.2.1. clathrate reservoir
6. Aeolian6.1. regional to local windsd6.1.1. wind regimes
6.2. global air falle6.2.1. global atmosphere circulation.
7. Subsurface hydrothermal7.1. hydrothermal minerals7.1.1. impact‐generated 7.1.2. crustal magma sources
  • a The subhypotheses shown reflect discussions about processes that have been presented in the literature over the years, either for the formation of the Ma'adim Vallis/Gusev crater system or for channels in general on Mars.
  • b Hyperfluid lava carved Ma'adim Vallis and deposited material in Gusev. Viscuous lava generated a landform that mimics a delta at the outlet of Ma'adim. Pyroclasts and ashes are filling Gusev basin.
  • c Obliquity changes provided temperature conditions for CO2 or clathrates release at the latitude of Ma'adim and Gusev. The surface pressure is still problematic.
  • d Wind regimes following climate changes have driven the deposition and exhumation of material in Gusev.
  • e Sediments in Gusev are made of material extracted over the planet and deposited in the basin by global atmosphere circulation.

4.2. Soil Formation and Sedimentary Processes
[37] The main hypotheses can be associated with specific soil and/or sediment types that may be detected by the Athena instrument payload which include: (1) global soil; (2) soils formed in a nonaqueous environment; (3) soils formed in an aqueous environment; (4) volcanic materials; (5) lacustrine sediments; (6) fluvial sediments; (7) aeolian sediments; and (8) glacial sediments. Soil and sediment profiles may be observed in the form of ejecta blocks from impact events, outcrops, and aeolian exposures (e.g., yardangs, see Figure 10). Excavation by spinning a rover wheel while the rover remains stationary is also anticipated to access soil and sediment 5–10 cm below the surface.

jgre1679-fig-0010.png

Figure 10
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Caption
[38] This discussion cannot touch on all possible signatures of all sediment and soil formation processes that could be detected by the Athena instruments. Moreover, we do not presume to have identified every possible type of soil or sediment that could conceivably occur within Gusev. This is meant as a guide, and attempts to demonstrate what the Athena instruments may detect and what hypotheses could be identified if presented with certain evidence of a geologic or pedogenic process. Table 3 summarizes what results from the Athena instruments would suggest a particular geologic or pedogenic process listed above and is supported by the following discussion.

Table 3. Possible Results From Athena Instruments of Hypothetical Soils and Sediments in Gusev Cratera
HypothesisPanoramic CameraMicroscopic ImagerAlpha Particle X Ray SpectrometerMini‐Thermal Emission SpectrometerMössbauer Spectrometer
Global soilSimilar multispectral characteristics as MPF soil.No uniquely identifiable characteristics.Similar elemental chemistry as MPF and VL 1, 2 soil.No uniquely identifiable characteristics.No uniquely identifiable characteristics.
Soils from physical weathering of local rockNo uniquely identifiable characteristics.Angular soil grain morphology.Soil elemental chemistry similar to local rock chemistry.Soil spectra similar to local rock spectra. No secondary mineralogy.Soil Fe mineralogy similar to local rock Fe mineralogy. No secondary Fe‐oxyhydroxides.
Volcanic ashSedimentary deposit that conforms to topography.Glass shards cupsate, blocky, platy <250 μm.Any range of Si content. Chemistry may be different than local rock.Poorly crystalline to crystalline material (e.g., plagioclase, pyroxene, hornblende).Ilmenite, titanomagnetite, titanomaghemite, magnetite, Fe‐pyroxene.
Maar base surge depositMassive, planar sedimentary deposits. Soft sediment deformations, vesicles, bedding sags.Glass shards, blocky. Fine‐grained material <1 mm.Any range of Si content.Poorly crystalline to crystalline material (e.g., plagioclase, pyroxene, hornblende).Ilmenite, titanomagnetite, titanomaghemite, magnetite, Fe‐pyroxene.
Soil from aqueous weathering (e.g., melting snow)Soil structure. Columns, wedge, blocky, platy. Vesicular porosity near soil surface.Vesicular porosity near soil surface.Loss or accumulation of Ca, Mg, K, Na relative to local surface rock.Phyllosilicates, carbonates, sulfates, secondary Fe‐oxyhydroxides.Secondary Fe‐oxyhydroxides.
Fluvial depositConglomerate facies;sheet, tabular cross stratified, lateral, channel fill, rounded/subrounded clasts up to 30 cm.No visible grains.No uniquely identifiable characteristics.Primary minerals with cementing mineralogy; Fe‐oxyhydroxide, carbonate, or phyllosilicates.Detect mineralogy of Fe‐cementing mineral if present. Possible siderite (FeCO3) Fe2+‐smectite if outer oxidized layer on sedimentary rock is removed by the RAT.
Sandstone facies; tabular and trough cross bed and ripple bed.
Shale facies; planar bed.
Lacustrine depositAlternating planar layers of light‐colored layers with darker layers. Layer thickness few cm to 10s cm.Sand and gravel grains at lake's margin; clay/silt grains toward lake's center.High levels of Ca, Mg, K, Na, S, Cl, N in basin.Mineralogy variation from lake margin to lake center (e.g., carbonate → sulfate); phyllosilicates.Possible siderite (FeCO3) Fe2+‐smectite if outer oxidized layer on sedimentary rock is removed by the RAT.
Lake's margin: sandstone facies; possibly similar to fluvial facies.Rounded sand grains.
Lake's middle: shale facies; planar layers of silt/clay.No visible grains.
Aeolian depositNo particles larger than can be moved by creeping.Grain size <4 mm.Sediment chemistry differing from local rock chemistry.Comparisons of sediment and local rock spectra suggest differing mineralogies.Comparisons of sediment and local rock Mössbauer spectra suggest differing Fe mineralogies.
Sandstone facies: planar, laminar cross bedding or ripple bedding. No trough cross bedding.
Presence of global soil (see above).
>20 m thick deposits with little stratification (loess).Grain size not easily discernable (loess).
Glacial deposit (glacial till/moraine)Poorly sorted material; cm to large boulders, striated rocks, gravel, boulders. Flattened rocks and gravel.Striated rocks and gravels.No uniquely identifiable characteristics.Primary minerals.Primary Fe minerals.
Glacial lakeVarves, rain‐out debris in planar layered sediments.No visible grains.High levels of Ca, Mg, K, Na, S, Cl, NPhyllosicates.Possible siderite (FeCO3) Fe2+‐smectite if outer oxidized layer on sedimentary rock is removed by the RAT.
  • a Bold text of instrument analytical results suggest a positive identification of an individual hypothesis.

4.2.1. Global Soil
[39] The Viking and Mars Pathfinder (MPF) sites show widely similar bulk soil elemental compositions, suggesting a soil that has been globally distributed by aeolian activity [Rieder et al., 1997]. The presence of global soil in Gusev will be indicated by alpha particle X‐ray spectrometer (APXS) bulk chemical analyses reporting elemental concentrations similar to the Viking and MPF sites. Further support for global soil in Gusev may be established if Pancam multispectral imaging shows spectra similar to what was obtained by MPF [Bell et al., 2000].

4.2.2. Soil Formation in a Nonaqueous Environment
[40] The APXS data of soils derived from local rocks will be expected to have total elemental composition similar to the local rock. Furthermore, Mini‐TES and Mössbauer spectrometer (MB) spectra would show that the rocks and soils have similar spectral properties. Soils that show no evidence of secondary mineralogy (e.g., clay minerals, iron‐oxyhydroxides, carbonates, and sulfates) would suggest that the soils were not affected by postdepositional aqueous activity. The Microscopic Imager (MI) data may show soil particles with angular morphology suggesting that they were derived locally.

4.2.3. Volcanic Ash/Maar Base Surge Deposits
[41] Apollinaris Patera is 250 km north [Robinson et al., 1993] and may have deposited volcanic ash and pyroclasts in Gusev [Kuzmin et al., 2000]. The detection of blocky, platy, and/or cupsate glass shards by MI will support the idea that volcanic ash is component of the soil [Orton, 1996]. Mini‐TES spectra of an ash deposit may show a basaltic or andesitic signature if the ash has significant lithic component. Ash deposits with a significant vitric component would tend to show a poorly crystalline Mini‐TES spectra. If the volcanic ash is not altered by water, the MB may detect Fe phases such as ilmenite, titanomagnetite, titanomaghemite, and magnetite and Fe containing pyroxene [Fischer and Schmincke, 1984; Gunnlaugsson et al., 2002].

[42] While craters in Gusev are presumed to be of impact origin, it is conceivable that some craters could be maars or tuff rings (Figure 11). Maar or tuff ring volcanoes can produce base surge deposits that resemble fluvial deposits (e.g., planar to wavy layering) as shown in Figure 12. However, unlike fluvial deposits, base surge deposits may contain soft sediment deformations (i.e., folded layering between undeformed layer), vesicles (gas bubbles) and bedding sags that may be observable with Pancam [Cas and Wright, 1987; Fischer and Schmincke, 1984].

jgre1679-fig-0011.png

Figure 11
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jgre1679-fig-0012.png

Figure 12
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Caption4.2.4. Soil Formation in Aqueous Environment
[43] The observation of platy, blocky, prismatic, and/or columnar, soil structures in an exposed soil profile by the Pancam would suggest that the soil may have been affected by water. Extensive leeching of base cations from the soil profile would have occurred regardless of whether Mars had a reducing or an oxidizing environment. Soil levels of Ca, Mg, K, and Na as detected by the APXS may be lower relative to local rocks. Mini‐TES may detect clay minerals (e.g., kaolinite, vermiculite, chlorite, and smectite), gibbsite, Fe‐oxyhydroxides [e.g., ferrihydrite (5Fe2O3·9H2O), goethite (FeOOH), or hematite (Fe2O3)], and calcite (CaCO3). MB could detect the presence of any Fe‐oxyhydroxides.

[44] Arid soils experiencing low or episodic water activity can develop structure as discussed above. Vesicular porosity is prevalent near the soil surface in arid soils [Dunkerley and Brown, 1997] and may be observable by the Pancam and MI. Arid aqueous activity would be indicated by the APXS detecting elevated levels of Ca, Mg, K, Na, S, Cl, and/or N in the soil relative to local rock. Mini‐TES may detect calcite (CaCO3), gypsum (CaSO4· 2H2O), annhydrite (CaSO4), and possibly nitratite (NaNO3) [Eriksen, 1981; Clark et al., 1982; Amit and Yaalon, 1996; Li et al., 1996; Böhlke et al., 1997]. Smectite is usually the prevalent clay mineral formed in arid environments [Allen and Hajek, 1992] and could be detected by Mini‐TES.

[45] The above discussion of aqueous weathering assumed Earth oxidizing conditions. Reducing conditions could well have prevailed during aqueous mineral weathering on early Mars [Catling, 1999]. Siderite (FeCO3) may have formed in greater abundance than calcite [Catling, 1999]. Under reducing conditions magnetite (Fe3O4), siderite, and pyrite (FeS2) would have the potential to precipitate rather than goethite, ferrihydrite, or hematite. The prevalence of the apparent oxidizing conditions on Mars today may obscure any evidence of reducing mineralogy. The abrasion of a sedimentary rock or indurated soil blocks with the RAT to analyze material not directly exposed to the past and/or present Martian oxidizing conditions should allow MB and Mini‐TES to test the existence of reducing mineralogy.

4.2.5. Lacustrine Sediments
[46] Pancam could detect soil profiles of a lake deposit showing alternating layers of light colored salts and darker colored clay/silt layers [Li et al., 1996]. However, complex mixtures of evaporites and clay mineralogies can occur in lacustrine soils and may not be discernable by Pancam. Soil structure in lacustrine soils may also be observable by the Pancam. Evaporite and clay minerals may also be detected by Mini‐TES. The APXS may show elevated levels of Ca, Mg, K, Na, S, Cl and possible N relative to local rock. Pancam and MI could detect a lake's margin because of the presence of beach sands and gravels relative to clays and silts that occur toward the center of the lake. Some of the precipitation sequence of (carbonates → sulfate) → halite could be detected as Mini‐TES and APXS sample from the outer reaches of the lake and moves toward the center of the lake [Eugster and Kelts, 1983; Shaw and Thomas, 1997]. Within a 600 m traverse, the spectrometers and cameras onboard the rover are likely to observe chemical transition. Soils with abundant evaporite minerals could be indurated, and clay mineral deposits may become shale‐like. Any shale‐like material with planer layering or indurated evaporites may occur as ejecta blocks large enough to be examined with the Athena instruments.

4.2.6. Fluvial Sediments
[47] Evidence of past fluvial activity in Gusev crater may occur as ejecta blocks or outcrops of conglomerate, sandstone, or shale at the surface. Any material exhibiting layered morphology (e.g., cross bedding, ripple bedding and trough cross bedding) [Collinson, 1996] observed by Pancam are candidates for fluvial deposition. Rounded soil grains observed by MI would suggest fluvial activity. Mini‐TES would detect the primary mineralogy of the sand or conglomerate particles and may detect their cementing agents (e.g., silica, carbonate, clay, iron oxyhydroxides) [Klein and Hurlbut, 1993]. The color of the sandstone may reflect the cementing agent with silica and carbonate agents producing a light color and the iron oxyhydroxides producing a red to reddish brown color. If an iron‐oxyhydroxide or siderite is the primary cementing agent, then MB may indicate the iron mineralogy of the cementing agent. PanCam images of a rock or outcrop material showing planar layering with no MI identifiable sand‐sized grains would suggest shale‐like material. Mini‐TES would produce spectra with primary mineralogies and clay mineralogies. Shale‐like material containing a significant vitric component derived from volcanic ash would tend to produce poorly crystalline Mini‐TES spectra.

4.2.7. Aeolian Sediments
[48] Detection of the global soil would suggest aeolian deposition of soil. MI will detect aeolian sedimentary deposits that show planar cross bedding and rippled bedding if the aeolian grains are large (>30 μm. However, trough cross bedding that occurs in fluvial environments typically does not occur in aeolian environments. Furthermore, layering of materials coarser than 4mm would suggest only fluvial and not aeolian activity [Greeley et al., 1992].

[49] Loess deposits on Earth tend to be 20–30 m thick but have been known to be as thick as 60 m and usually are derived from fluvial and glacial sediments [Pye, 1987; Dunkerley and Brown, 1997]. Loess particle sizes range from 10 to 50 μm and are usually deposited in weakly stratified accumulations. Any Pancam and MI observations of deposits that appear to have little or no stratification with particle sizes barely or not visible by the MI may indicate loess.

4.2.8. Glacial Sediments
[50] Soil profiles or outcrops containing glacial till or material deposited at the terminus (moraine material) of a glacier will be poorly sorted and contain all grain sizes ranging from clay‐sized grains to meter‐sized boulders. The layering observed with glacially deposited material could look similar to fluvial material. However, closer examination of rock fragments (>2 mm) in glacial till could show indications of striations resulting from the abrasion of the rock, which is characteristic of the grinding action of glaciers on rock against another rock or bedrock surface. Some striated pebbles or rock may be elongated or flattened and would lie in the direction of glacial movement. “Rain‐out” debris from rafted ice that is deposited in the lake's sediment may indicate a glacial lake [Bennett and Glasser, 1996]. Varves are usually indicative of glacial activity and, if so, consist of alternating layers of clay and silt/sand in the lake's sediment. Varving also occurs in temperate climates with seasonal fluctuation in precipitation. All of the above indicators of glacial activity may be observed with Pancam or MI.

[51] It is important to note that the key indicators for each of the described hypotheses could all be identified in situ within the range of the rover traverse as they are strongly based on the mineralogy of sedimentary exposures and grains and their morphology. In situ observations from the rover will be then complemented by larger‐scale orbital data surveys (MGS and MO) during the mission in order to fully understand the significance of the observation and the results of the measurements.
 
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  • #42
Vanadium 50 said:
No, they have a low concentrations of silica. The link discusses rocks that are unusual, precisely because they are rich in silica. Compared to other Mars rocks.
Ahh, I didn't notice that.

Anyways, if you have more to share about how we can tell if the conditions necessary for petrification had existed, that would be interesting. I didn't know about this issue before.

I think that the specific image I shared P294 may be from the Columbia Hills in Gusev crater, which is one of those places where more silica was found.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0019103509001638

Towards the middle of the six-year mission (a mission that was supposed to last only 90 days), large amounts of pure silicawere found in the soil. The silica could have come from the interaction of soil with acid vapors produced by volcanic activity in the presence of water or from water in a hot spring environment.[15]

After Spirit stopped working scientists studied old data from the Miniature Thermal Emission Spectrometer (Mini-TES) and confirmed the presence of large amounts of carbonate-rich rocks, which means that regions of the planet may have once harbored water. The carbonates were discovered in an outcrop of rocks called "Comanche."[16][17]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Hills_(Mars)
 
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  • #45
All I can see is common rocks (they are expected to have different shapes!). What I surmise is that the OP has a vivid pattern recognition (see post #12).
 
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  • #46
russ_watters said:
What? We're talking about a NASA mission here, not a ballistic missile submarine. The mission plan is public knowledge for anyone who chooses to google it!
Oh yes. No conspiracy theory intended. I was simply stating a fact that most people ('we') haven't read the mission statement and that most comments here are very much based on personal opinions.
 
  • #47
Jarvis323 said:
This one is odd. I don't know, I guess the wind blew this thing over maybe. Must be something fairly lightweight?
Could it just be a parallax effect? There are not many clues about distances in those pictures but the viewpoints look different. You have to look for the most reasonable solution in these cases.
The viewpoint for the first image is very different.
 
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  • #48
sophiecentaur said:
Could it just be a parallax effect? There are not many clues about distances in those pictures but the viewpoints look different. You have to look for the most reasonable solution in these cases.
Yeah, I think it might be the parallax effect. But I don't know how to work that out. It's quite displaced looking. I guess it could be because it's further back than it looks.
 
  • #49
Jarvis323 said:
This one is odd. I don't know, I guess the wind blew this thing over maybe. Must be something fairly lightweight?
I can't tell if you're joking or not; the atmosphere on Mars is very thin (about 1/60th that of earth); the wind can't blow over/move a rock.
Yeah, I think it might be the parallax effect. But I don't know how to work that out. It's quite displaced looking. I guess it could be because it's further back than it looks.
In the wide view it is fairly clear that the nearby rocks are on a small hill and the further rock is on the ground well behind them.

Where is the archive you are accessing and what documentation is provided? I would be fairly shocked if they didn't provide all the necessary geometric information to draw a map of where all the objects are in the photos. All you need is the location of the rover when it took the photos and the direction the camera was pointed (for 2 photos).
 
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  • #50
sophiecentaur said:
Oh yes. No conspiracy theory intended. I was simply stating a fact that most people ('we') haven't read the mission statement and that most comments here are very much based on personal opinions.
"we" really should if "we" want to speculate if any given investigation is within the scope of the mission! Here's a concise statement for one of the rover missions (looks like a dead/archived page):
  1. Search for and characterize a variety of rocks and soils that hold clues to past water activity. In particular, samples sought will include those that have minerals deposited by water-related processes such as precipitation, evaporation, sedimentary cementation, or hydrothermal activity.
  2. Determine the distribution and composition of minerals, rocks, and soils surrounding the landing sites.
  3. Determine what geologic processes have shaped the local terrain and influenced the chemistry. Such processes could include water or wind erosion, sedimentation, hydrothermal mechanisms, volcanism, and cratering.
  4. Perform "ground truth" -- calibration and validation -- of surface observations made by Mars orbiter instruments. This will help determine the accuracy and effectiveness of various instruments that survey Martian geology from orbit.
  5. Search for iron-containing minerals, identify and quantify relative amounts of specific mineral types that contain water or were formed in water, such as iron-bearing carbonates.
  6. Characterize the mineralogy and textures of rocks and soils and determine the processes that created them.
  7. Search for geological clues to the environmental conditions that existed when liquid water was present. Assess whether those environments were conducive to life.
https://www.webcitation.org/61AZSknZA?url=http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/science/objectives.html

Most of these can be summarized as "go and investigate an interesting rock".
 
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