Is there life in the universe, and if so has it visited Earth?

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The discussion centers on the probability of extraterrestrial life in the universe, supported by the vast number of stars and the Drake equation, which suggests intelligent life likely exists. While participants agree on the likelihood of life elsewhere, there is skepticism regarding whether such life has visited Earth, with some arguing that the technological barriers and vast distances make encounters improbable. The conversation also touches on the implications of advanced civilizations and the potential for interstellar travel, raising questions about our ability to detect extraterrestrial visitors. Participants express varied opinions on the survival of intelligent civilizations and the factors influencing their communication capabilities. Ultimately, the consensus leans towards the existence of life beyond Earth, while doubts remain about direct contact.

Has alien life visited Earth?

  • Yes

    Votes: 81 14.5%
  • no

    Votes: 201 35.9%
  • no: but it's only a matter of time

    Votes: 64 11.4%
  • Yes: but there is a conspiracy to hide this from us

    Votes: 47 8.4%
  • maybe maybe not?

    Votes: 138 24.6%
  • I just bit my tongue and it hurts, what was the question again? Er no comment

    Votes: 29 5.2%

  • Total voters
    560
  • #661
Ivan Seeking said:
Funny, not me, but then I certainly know a lot more about this than Sagan did. And Dawkings is a man with an agenda.

Oh...my...god...not this stupid myth about Dawkins having an agenda. Ok, I just need to stop replying to your posts cause it's so full of misinformation half the time.

If I had seen what some of these guys say they saw, then I would likely jump to the same conclusion, and I think that is true of most anyone here.

I wouldn't, but that's cause I probably think a little more scientifically than you do.
 
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  • #662
LightbulbSun said:
Oh...my...god...not this stupid myth about Dawkins having an agenda. Ok, I just need to stop replying to your posts cause it's so full of misinformation half the time.




:biggrin:
 
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  • #663
N468989 said:
we evolve at a rate X. if they evolve at rate X^N (N>>0) it is possible! that they will visit us or have visited or will visit!

Its nice to speculate along the illusionary linear path of evolution but your equation must include the percent of probability for natural disasters and societal upheaval that take place during what appears to be the progress of an evolution or development of a civilization.
 
  • #664
DaveC426913 said:
?
Sagan knows more about everything than anyone??

You have to be a genius to know more about a specific subject than Sagan?
Sagan did not know more about everything than anyone. But he knew a lot about astronomy and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
Since Ivan has an agenda: that UFOs are probably of extraterrestrial origin, he implies that he knows more about SETI than his creator.
 
  • #665
baywax said:
Its nice to speculate along the illusionary linear path of evolution but your equation must include the percent of probability for natural disasters and societal upheaval that take place during what appears to be the progress of an evolution or development of a civilization.

it's just one of many possible situations, of course there are many other situations. Our origin was created upon a unique sequence of events, from which we could (the day will come) have been eliminated by an evolutionary process (disease. disasters, etc). The fact that we evolve at rate X, includes those percentages of failure for both cases.

Relatively to the " Is there life in the universe, and if so has it visited Earth" question, it depends what you believe in. I believe that, we ourselves might be aliens on this planet that we call earth. We could have been just an infinitesimal part of THE creation. It's very easy for science to tell us where things started, but only based on "live facts". We don't know when it really begun (only spectulation).
 
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  • #666
Here is the opinion of an astronomer about the subject.
http://blogs.discovery.com/space_disco/2008/11/ufo-alien-plait.html
Since he is a skeptic, some people will say he has an agenda. He probably has, but he knows about what he is talking.
 
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  • #667
CEL said:
Here is the opinion of an astronomer about the subject.
http://blogs.discovery.com/space_disco/2008/11/ufo-alien-plait.html
Since he is a skeptic, some people will say he has an agenda. He probably has, but he knows about what he is talking.

It's a pretty convincing argument. Just to be clear, he's not a skeptic about alien life whatsoever. He's a skeptic about it having visited Earth:
Phil Plait said:
Manmade satellites pass overhead several times an hour, and some brighten tremendously as a solar panel or mirrored surface catches the Sun. Meteors blaze across the sky, ice crystal refract sunlight and moonlight, atmospheric effects make a distant object appear distorted and weirdly-shaped. All of these have been mistaken for alien spacecraft .

So I know that most people misinterpret what they see. But there's something else too. If alien spaceships are really out there abducting us and playing chicken with our airplanes, then you'd expect that people who spend more time looking at the sky would see more of them. And who spends lots of time looking up?

Amateur astronomers. They are dedicated observers, out every night peering at the sky. If The Truth Is Out There, then amateur astronomers would be reporting far and away the vast majority of UFOs.

But they don't. Why not? Because they understand the sky! They know when a twinkling light is Venus, or a satellite, or a military flare, or a hot air balloon, and so they don't report it.

That, to me, is the killer argument that aliens aren't visiting us. If they were, the amateur astronomers would spot them.
 
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  • #668
Pythagorean said:
It's a pretty convincing argument. Just to be clear, he's not a skeptic about alien life whatsoever. He's a skeptic about it having visited Earth:
Very few educated people doubt that there is life elsewhere in the Universe. What some people, including Phil and I, don't believe is that ETs are visiting us.
 
  • #669
CEL said:
Very few educated people doubt that there is life elsewhere in the Universe. What some people, including Phil and I, don't believe is that ETs are visiting us.

One way a civilization may have been able to reach this planet from theirs... light years away... is through some sort of utilization of the principal of superposition. Being there and here at the same time. Impossible to imagine at this moment for us puny humans. Is there anyway this could happen?
 
  • #670
baywax said:
One way a civilization may have been able to reach this planet from theirs... light years away... is through some sort of utilization of the principal of superposition. Being there and here at the same time. Impossible to imagine at this moment for us puny humans. Is there anyway this could happen?

What do you mean by the principle of superposition?
 
  • #671
CEL said:
What do you mean by the principle of superposition?

I think he meant something besides superposition :P
 
  • #672
Pythagorean said:
I think he meant something besides superposition :P

The term "superposition" is used in this quote (from Paul Davies) to describe how a quantum particle can be in many places at once...

A quantum particle can be in a superposition of states - for example it may be in many places at once - whereas the "classical" world of observation reveals a single reality. This conundrum is famously captured by the paradox of Schrödinger’s cat, in which a quantum superposition is amplified in order to put an animal into an apparently live-dead hybrid state.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/23668

One might think that an advanced civilization could somehow create the same conditions with a ship or ship with lifeforms in it.
 
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  • #673
baywax said:
The term "superposition" is used in this quote (from Paul Davies) to describe how a quantum particle can be in many places at once...
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/23668

One might think that an advanced civilization could somehow create the same conditions with a ship or ship with lifeforms in it.

In my QM classes, I never interpreted that as the particle actually being in two places at once. At least, not the way you imagine it. It always seemed more to do with our lack of ability to know which state it was in until we measured it.

I was under the impression that in the higher QM classes, you actually treat the electron as "gas" so that it's just a less dense distribution covering a larger area.
 
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  • #674
Pythagorean said:
In my QM classes, I never interpreted that as the particle actually being in two places at once. At least, not the way you imagine it. It always seemed more to do with our lack of ability to know which state it was in until we measured it.

I was under the impression that in the higher QM classes, you actually treat the electron as "gas" so that it's just a less dense distribution covering a larger area.

I see... like what I've read in PF about treating a photon as an infinitely stretched out beam(thats actually spherical):rolleyes:.
 
  • #675
I would find it far more likely that they wouldn't actually come and do research on a totally unknown planet that appears to contain life. Instead they would send AI Bots on ships to observe us.. possibly even treat us like we treat animals, not recognizing us as any more intelligent than an ant colony. they probably communicate in a totally different way, and think that us using these vibrations from our voiceboxes to form languages is cool, like we think bee's are cool for vibrating to make mating call sounds.
We're probably labeled as "Potential Intelligence" or something to that effect and they probably wouldn't make contact with us until we get a better grasp on ourselves morally and technologically.
We don't even have a grasp on concioussness, to them does that mean that we act just as any other animal?
We havn't harnessed the power of the forces of the universe, the fact that we can be creative and curious makes us no more advanced in their eyes, until we learn to stop pointless aggression towards each other, thinking about this, we really are no more than animals, just highest up the food chain for this measly little planet. Worth Observing? Sure, got to keep an eye out for if we actually do acsend to a higher intelligence of the world, but there's probably just as likely a chance of use blowing ourselves up before we ever get close, so why actually come here. It's not safe.
I think this is the logic our minds would probably use in the shoes of a civilization far more advanced than ours, /shrug

Arn't we teleporting things at some university?
on the atomic level i know, but still.. beam me up scotty isn't neccessarily out of the reach of plausable in a far more advanced version of us right?
So who's to say they don't teleport themselves back and forth through different galaxies?
I think Mr. Kaku has it right saying we're going to be far more advanced than we are in 2057, then these questions would probably be common knowledge, look at how far we've come in such a short time, what's next?, this is why I love science.
 
  • #676
Pythagorean said:
In my QM classes, I never interpreted that as the particle actually being in two places at once. At least, not the way you imagine it. It always seemed more to do with our lack of ability to know which state it was in until we measured it.
That has always been my understanding. The particle has a finite probability of being in a region of space. We only don't know where it really is until we measure it. That is the sense that the measurement changes the thing that is being measured. The probability becomes a certitude.
Even if we accept the notion that the particle is simultaneously at two different places, this does not mean that the same can happen in the macroscopic world. The laws of physics are different in the nano and the macro worlds.
 
  • #677
CEL said:
Even if we accept the notion that the particle is simultaneously at two different places, this does not mean that the same can happen in the macroscopic world. The laws of physics are different in the nano and the macro worlds.

As far as we know. Life is stranger than fiction.
 
  • #678
Point of order: when did this discussion get sidetracked from alien visitations of Earth to quantum superposition?

I mean, I know it's on its 43rd page of posts, but still, it seems to be a pretty popular thread even on its intended topic.

[EDIT: Ah. A quick look reveals that it's just a few posts ago, in the https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1983082&postcount=670". I thought it was a while back. Carry on...]
 
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  • #679
DaveC426913 said:
Point of order: when did this discussion get sidetracked from alien visitations of Earth to quantum superposition?

I mean, I know it's on its 43rd page of posts, but still, it seems to be a pretty popular thread even on its intended topic.

[EDIT: Ah. A quick look reveals that it's just a few posts ago, in the https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1983082&postcount=670". I thought it was a while back. Carry on...]

Yeah, sorry DaveC426913... it was my own fault for trying to come up with a method by which "aliens" could have traversed the distances between solar systems and/or galaxies. Its still a problem (for us) to imagine the technology that could achieve such a feat. And its one reason why I believe the crafts that have been sighted and photographed are terrestrial in origin.
 
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  • #680
This is a FANTASTIC site that goes deep into the hard physics surrounding many science (fiction) conceits, aggregated over the years from usenet. Here is the section on slower-than-light interstellar travel: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3aj.html

Here's a random exerpt from a subsection on suspended animation passengers:

"Poul Anderson noted that there is probably a limit to how long a human will remain viable in cryogenic suspension (in other words they have a self-life). Naturally occurring radioactive atoms in the body will cause damage. In a non-suspended person such damage is repaired, but in a suspended person it just accumulates. He's talking about this damage happening over suspensions lasting several hundred years, during interstellar trips. This may require one to periodically thaw out crew members and keep them awake for long enough to heal the damage before re-freezing them."

Lots of considerations like the above example that I never would've considered. Warning, if you're optimistic about space travel, the site will probably depress you. Its take on each subject is more or less irrefutable though.
 
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  • #681
baywax said:
Yeah, sorry DaveC426913... it was my own fault for trying to come up with a method by which "aliens" could have traversed the distances between solar systems and/or galaxies. Its still a problem (for us) to imagine the technology that could achieve such a feat. And its one reason why I believe the crafts that have been sighted and photographed are terrestrial in origin.

So then you assume that we are essentially [nearly] as technologically advanced as any species can be?
 
  • #682
Ivan Seeking said:
So then you assume that we are essentially [nearly] as technologically advanced as any species can be?

I think its prudent to neither assume that we are as advanced as all other species nor to assume other species are more advanced. What would be prudent is to wait and find out.

In the mean time, we might want to discover the origin of the UFOs because they or their origin could pose a threat to democratic and humanitarian progress. In fact, you Americans could spend another trillion bucks on that kind of preemptive research to ensure democracy survives.
 
  • #683
Discovery of Methane Reveals Mars Is Not a Dead Planet WASHINGTON -- A team of NASA and university scientists has achieved the first definitive detection of methane in the atmosphere of Mars. This discovery indicates the planet is either biologically or geologically active.

The team found methane in the Martian atmosphere by carefully observing the planet throughout several Mars years with NASA's Infrared Telescope Facility and the W.M. Keck telescope, both at Mauna Kea, Hawaii. The team used spectrometers on the telescopes to spread the light into its component colors, as a prism separates white light into a rainbow. The team detected three spectral features called absorption lines that together are a definitive signature of methane.

"Methane is quickly destroyed in the Martian atmosphere in a variety of ways, so our discovery of substantial plumes of methane in the northern hemisphere of Mars in 2003 indicates some ongoing process is releasing the gas," said Michael Mumma of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. "At northern mid-summer, methane is released at a rate comparable to that of the massive hydrocarbon seep at Coal Oil Point in Santa Barbara, Calif." Mumma is lead author of a paper describing this research that will appear in Science Express on Thursday.

Methane, four atoms of hydrogen bound to a carbon atom, is the main component of natural gas on Earth. Astrobiologists are interested in these data because organisms release much of Earth's methane as they digest nutrients. However, other purely geological processes, like oxidation of iron, also release methane.

"Right now, we do not have enough information to tell whether biology or geology -- or both -- is producing the methane on Mars," Mumma said. "But it does tell us the planet is still alive, at least in a geologic sense. It is as if Mars is challenging us, saying, 'hey, find out what this means.' "

If microscopic Martian life is producing the methane, it likely resides far below the surface where it is warm enough for liquid water to exist. Liquid water is necessary for all known forms of life, as are energy sources and a supply of carbon.

"On Earth, microorganisms thrive about 1.2 to 1.9 miles beneath the Witwatersrand basin of South Africa, where natural radioactivity splits water molecules into molecular hydrogen and oxygen," Mumma said. "The organisms use the hydrogen for energy. It might be possible for similar organisms to survive for billions of years below the permafrost layer on Mars, where water is liquid, radiation supplies energy, and carbon dioxide provides carbon. Gases, like methane, accumulated in such underground zones might be released into the atmosphere if pores or fissures open during the warm seasons, connecting the deep zones to the atmosphere at crater walls or canyons."

It is possible a geologic process produced the Martian methane, either now or eons ago. On Earth, the conversion of iron oxide into the serpentine group of minerals creates methane, and on Mars this process could proceed using water, carbon dioxide and the planet's internal heat. Although there is no evidence of active volcanism on Mars today, ancient methane trapped in ice cages called clathrates might be released now.

"We observed and mapped multiple plumes of methane on Mars, one of which released about 19,000 metric tons of methane," said co-author Geronimo Villanueva of the Catholic University of America in Washington. "The plumes were emitted during the warmer seasons, spring and summer, perhaps because ice blocking cracks and fissures vaporized, allowing methane to seep into the Martian air."

According to the team, the plumes were seen over areas that show evidence of ancient ground ice or flowing water. Plumes appeared over the Martian northern hemisphere regions such as east of Arabia Terra, the Nili Fossae region, and the south-east quadrant of Syrtis Major, an ancient volcano about 745 miles across.

One method to test whether life produced this methane is by measuring isotope ratios. Isotopes of an element have slightly different chemical properties, and life prefers to use the lighter isotopes. A chemical called deuterium is a heavier version of hydrogen. Methane and water released on Mars should show distinctive ratios for isotopes of hydrogen and carbon if life was responsible for methane production. It will take future missions, like NASA's Mars Science Laboratory, to discover the origin of the Martian methane.

The research was funded by the Planetary Astronomy Program at NASA Headquarters in Washington and the Astrobiology Institute at NASA's Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif. The University of Hawaii manages NASA's Infrared Telescope Facility.

For images related to this finding, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/mars
http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2009/jan/HQ_09-006_Mars_Methane.html
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mars/news/marsmethane_media.html
 
  • #684
baywax said:
I think its prudent to neither assume that we are as advanced as all other species nor to assume other species are more advanced. What would be prudent is to wait and find out.

If we're going to assume anything then I think it is prudent to assume that, taking into consideration the mind-boggling vastness of the universe, there are less advanced as well as more advanced species out there.

baywax said:
In the mean time, we might want to discover the origin of the UFOs because they or their origin could pose a threat to democratic and humanitarian progress. In fact, you Americans could spend another trillion bucks on that kind of preemptive research to ensure democracy survives.

"Independence Day" is only a movie. If any civilisation has the technology to cross the vast distances involved in space travel, then I can almost assure you that there will be very little (if anything at all) that us mere humans could do to protect ourselves in case such a civilisation decided on an aggressive policy.

Imagine the Spanish Armada set against a modern-day aircraft carrier group...
 
  • #686
Would it be plausible that methane is merely seeping out of the rocks, frozen or whatnot from times of long ago? I am no expert in anything lol, but its been there for millions of years, I'm thinking that if there were any trapped methane it would've leaked out long ago.
 
  • #687
phyzmatix said:
Imagine the Spanish Armada set against a modern-day aircraft carrier group...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/"

Nothin' like a couple of F-14 Tomcats in a dogfight with a couple of Zeros. (very short)
 
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  • #688
DaveC426913 said:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/"

Nothin' like a couple of F-14 Tomcats in a dogfight with a couple of Zeros. (very short)

:smile:

Got to get hold of it! :biggrin:
 
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  • #689
DaveC426913 said:
Godwin! :wink:There is evidence for flying saucers, it's just not compelling evidence. But that's a judgment call made by each individual.

Even those most critical of the idea must first still examine the evidence before deciding that it can be dismissed.
And I think by comparing it to religions and other establishments, you are simply trying to stir the pot. It's one thing to believe in unfounded ideas - we all do to some extent or another - it's another thing how strongly one will stick to those ideas. I'm guessing your idea of religions and naziism involves preconceptions of zealotism, and I imagine you think the same way about UFO-believers, but there is no dirth of moderate UFO-believers out there, so your comparison is more inflammatory than it is substantive.

That's not true, there is overwhelming evidence for flying saucers and or UFOs but no evidence that they are alien in origin.
 
  • #690
The Dagda said:
That's not true, there is overwhelming evidence for flying saucers and or UFOs but no evidence that they are alien in origin.

UFOs clearly exist; most are explained in conventional terms. As for flying saucers, that is a subjective interpretation. It should be noted also that we are talking about anecdotal evidence.
 

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