Is there life in the universe, and if so has it visited Earth?

[The Dagda]

UFOs clearly exist; most are explained in conventional terms. As for flying saucers, that is a subjective interpretation. It should be noted also that we are talking about anecdotal evidence.

Parapsychology is replete with anecdotal claims, do you think personally that anecdote is valid and if not why not?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Parapsychology is replete with anecdotal claims, do you think personally that anecdote is valid and if not why not?

Keep in mind that this is a science forum. For science in particular, anecdotal evidence is the lowest form of evidence and counts for almost nothing. From a personal point of view, some anecdotes can be very compelling, but only to the extent that they suggest that something may be worth a look. Nothing concrete can be derived exclusively from anecdotes. On the other hand, anecdotes may lead to interesting discoveries. After all, science begins with observations.

For example, for the Western world, the evidence for the great apes was once nothing more than anecdotes.

 

[baywax]

=Ivan Seeking:
For example, for the Western world, the evidence for the great apes was once nothing more than anecdotes.

Could we test each species to see if they're of terrestrial or extraterrestrial origin?

What markers would indicate a difference?

Would there be any way to tell if a species is from another planet/galaxy or a terrestrial one?

These questions harken back to the discussion about cross-pollinating planets and panspermia.

How would we know a 65 million year old species of plant... like a flowering one... is a product of Earth or a product of mars... on earth?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Could we test each species to see if they're of terrestrial or extraterrestrial origin?

What markers would indicate a difference?

Would there be any way to tell if a species is from another planet/galaxy or a terrestrial one?

These questions harken back to the discussion about cross-pollinating planets and panspermia.

How would we know a 65 million year old species of plant... like a flowering one... is a product of Earth or a product of mars... on earth?

I am not aware of any evidence indicating that any species lacks a terrestrial genetic history, but the question of the origins of life is an open question. AFAIK, there is no evidence that favors the proposition that that life [allegedly heterotrophs] began here, as opposed to arriving here on some form of cosmic debris.

 

[baywax]

I am not aware of any evidence indicating that any species lacks a terrestrial genetic history, but the question of the origins of life is an open question. AFAIK, there is no evidence that favors the proposition that that life [allegedly heterotrophs] began here, as opposed to arriving here on some form of cosmic debris.

So if and when we point the finger and say... "alien"... we may just mean "we've been here longer" as has always been the case with "intruders" and "natives".

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So if and when we point the finger and say... "alien"... we may just mean "we've been here longer" as has always been the case with "intruders" and "natives".

AFAIK, that may be true. Some years ago there was even some thought that alien viruses or bacteria may still be raining down on Earth on regular basis, but I don't know if anything came of it. Obviously it has never been shown to be true.

 

[baywax]

AFAIK, that may be true. Some years ago there was even some thought that alien viruses or bacteria may still be raining down on Earth on regular basis, but I don't know if anything came of it. Obviously it has never been shown to be true.

Is AFAIK my new nic name?

I'm not sure how we could distinguish extraterrestrial from terrestrial. If they're single celled and roughly similar in morphology, including the RNA or DNA, it would be difficult. We have bacteria and viruses that can go dormant for centuries just like a space bourn one would do.

The clue may be in their membrane and the stresses it shows. edit... for instance.. burn marks from entry!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Is AFAIK my new nic name?

AFAIK.

I just have to be careful since I'm not an expert. I always state what I believe to be true [if I have no idea I would say so], but I do make mistakes, and my information may be out of date.

I don't remember exactly how this applies, but there is one test that I read about that would show a microbe evolved under a sun emitting light having the opposite polarization of the light from our sun. I think it had something to do with the spiral in the double helix of DNA. But again I have to be careful here as I read about this many years ago [about 30 years ago].

 

[The Dagda]

I am not aware of any evidence indicating that any species lacks a terrestrial genetic history, but the question of the origins of life is an open question. AFAIK, there is no evidence that favors the proposition that that life [allegedly heterotrophs] began here, as opposed to arriving here on some form of cosmic debris.

Panspermia.

 

[The Dagda]

Is AFAIK my new nic name?

I'm not sure how we could distinguish extraterrestrial from terrestrial. If they're single celled and roughly similar in morphology, including the RNA or DNA, it would be difficult. We have bacteria and viruses that can go dormant for centuries just like a space bourn one would do.

The clue may be in their membrane and the stresses it shows. edit... for instance.. burn marks from entry!

Discovering left handed amino acids or right handed RNA/DNA on a comet or asteroid would do it.

 

[phyzmatix]

This is totally off-topic (forgive me), but I couldn't help thinking about this when I read Ivan's post on the methane found on Mars.

This is old knowledge, but to me it serves as a reminder that life can and does exist in the strangest, most extreme environments imaginable (even here on our watery, green planet):

These bacteria survive temperatures ranging from 147°F (64°C) to 225°F (107°C).

Bacteria are happy to exploit the crooks and crevasses of rocks. However, some bacteria don't just live inside these cracks, they live inside the actual rocks. They exist as the only organisms on the planet that are completely independent of any oxygen produced by photosynthesis.

http://www.calacademy.org/exhibits/xtremelife/life_on_earth.php

Microbes are known to grow at -12 °C, and they survive at -20 °C. Some studies even hint that a bacterium called Colwellia psychrerythraea strain 34H can withstand -196 °C, the temperature of liquid nitrogen.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14208?feedId=online-news_rss20

Extremophiles

Intro to the Archaea

http://www.microbeworld.org/microbes/archaea/

 

[The Dagda]

This is totally off-topic (forgive me), but I couldn't help thinking about this when I read Ivan's post on the methane found on Mars.

This is old knowledge, but to me it serves as a reminder that life can and does exist in the strangest, most extreme environments imaginable (even here on our watery, green planet):





http://www.calacademy.org/exhibits/xtremelife/life_on_earth.php



http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14208?feedId=online-news_rss20

Extremophiles

Intro to the Archaea

http://www.microbeworld.org/microbes/archaea/

Actually isn't that rather totally on topic?

 

[phyzmatix]

Actually isn't that rather totally on topic?

I wasn't so sure if I could, through implication, link extremophiles on Earth with life in (and visitors from) other parts of the universe and get away with it

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yep, perfectly acceptable. This thread addresses the question of ET life in the broadest terms; including evidence on Earth that life could exist elsewhere in extreme environments.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Panspermia.

Yes, I'm aware of the name, but is there any evidence for this?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Discovering left handed amino acids or right handed RNA/DNA on a comet or asteroid would do it.

Am I remembering this about the DNA correctly; that the sense of the spiral is a function of the polarization of light from our sun?

Thinking about it, it could have been amino acids and not DNA that I read about.

 

[The Dagda]

Am I remembering this about the DNA correctly; that the sense of the spiral is a function of the polarization of light from our sun?

Thinking about it, it could have been amino acids and not DNA that I read about.

It seems odd that amino acids are left and DNA right handed exclusively. Not that it's a problem for science, it's more it's a gap in knowledge at this time.

 

[tormund]

Humans are a relatively young species. If we could evolve as evolutionists say we have in so short of time as we have, how much longer would extra-terrestrials have had to evolve, or how much longer to happen upon the right environment to be able to produce life? If they had this much extra time to evolve, who is to say they never got bored and venture into the realms of the less intelligent?

If intelligent life ever visited us, we wouldn't know, since it is not likely that it would be interested in us at all.

Why do we, as intelligent human beings bother with the bugs and the animals so far lower in intelligence?

 

[The Dagda]

Why do we, as intelligent human beings bother with the bugs and the animals so far lower in intelligence?

Probably because to the outside observer we don't seem to be any more good at adapting than the average bug, which at least doesn't rape its environment intentionally. An alien may look on us as primitive in comparison to them, because let's face it humanity are idiots. Perhaps if they were here they'd consider us an interesting experiment, but far from worth the effort to get to know on any higher level.

I like The Mothman Prophecies in this respect, or 2001: A Space Oddyssey, the "aliens" are trying to give us a step up or trying to communicate but we are just too stupid atm. As it says in The Mothman Prophecies it's the equivalent of us talking to an ant.

 

[baywax]

Am I remembering this about the DNA correctly; that the sense of the spiral is a function of the polarization of light from our sun?

Thinking about it, it could have been amino acids and not DNA that I read about.

Slightly different method of determining if an organism is from another planet.

The Meselson and Stahl Experiment... molecular biology.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=2c0...=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA25,M1

Also:

From the perspective of how life got started on earth, it seems dauntingly unlikely that information-carrying molecules and reaction-catalyzing molecules would emerge at the same time and place. That impasse seemed to have been bridged with the discovery in 1982 that certain kinds of RNA have catalytic properties. It followed that a single RNA molecule could both carry information and catalyze reactions.

The concept of the RNA world, a phrase coined by Walter Gilbert of Harvard, held that in the beginning there were no proteins and no DNA, just RNA molecules that built more RNA molecules from chemical subunits known as nucleotides.

snip

Both Dr. Cech and Dr. Orgel, a leading authority on the origin of life, suggest that there was a pre-RNA world, in which the staring role was played by some other self-replicating, catalytic molecule.

Snip

The earliest known fossils exist in rocks that are 3.85 billion years old, leaving a mere 150 million years for life to have started.

And Dr. Crick (of Watson and Crick... co-discoverers of DNA) is touting the idea of panspermia here in the same article...

Dr. Crick then proposed that life might have started elsewhere in the universe, maybe on a planet whose chemical environment was more conducive to the genesis of life than was Earth's. The three kingdoms might represent the survivors of an assortment of microbes sent to colonize distant planets.

Dr. Crick's speculation that life originated elsewhere would provide an escape hatch for scientists trying to explain the origin of life on Earth should the available window of time be squeezed implausibly short. So far the idea has few takers, but nor is it being dismissed out of hand.

Oops... http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...5A35757C0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

 

[BoomBoom]

Dr. Crick's speculation that life originated elsewhere would provide an escape hatch for scientists trying to explain the origin of life on Earth should the available window of time be squeezed implausibly short.

Heh! Escape hatch?

I hope that biology never goes the way of cosmology, in which new parameters are "invented" to allow the preferred model to still fit the data (dark matter, dark energy etc.).
Maybe they will come up with some "dark DNA" that came from the heavens to seed life on earth?

 

[CEL]

Humans are a relatively young species. If we could evolve as evolutionists say we have in so short of time as we have, how much longer would extra-terrestrials have had to evolve, or how much longer to happen upon the right environment to be able to produce life? If they had this much extra time to evolve, who is to say they never got bored and venture into the realms of the less intelligent?

Why do we, as intelligent human beings bother with the bugs and the animals so far lower in intelligence?

Evolution and civilization are different things. Humans will continue the development of technology until levels unimaginable to us (provided that we don't extinguish ourselves in the process). There is no guaranty that we will evolve. Environmental pressure would be necessary for that. Sharks and turtles did not evolve in the past 300 million years, for lack of pressure.
Since humans are well adapted to the environment and have no predators (the same as with sharks and turtles), there is no need for further evolution.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Heh! Escape hatch?

I hope that biology never goes the way of cosmology, in which new parameters are "invented" to allow the preferred model to still fit the data (dark matter, dark energy etc.).
Maybe they will come up with some "dark DNA" that came from the heavens to seed life on earth?

Crick had pursued a career in physics but that ended due to WWII. He was a biologist. And he was certainly not a cosmologist.

Are you changing majors now?

 

[BoomBoom]

Crick had pursued a career in physics but that ended due to WWII. He was a biologist. And he was certainly not a cosmologist.

Are you changing majors now?

Ummm, I'm not quite sure what you mean?

I was not suggesting that Crick was a cosmologist...that was just an ill-advised attempt at humor to compare how the science of cosmology is conducted in contrast to biology.

...my bad, it was not funny.


I just find the whole concept of explaining the origins of life by suggesting it flew in from outer space, rather than starting on the only planet we know of that hosts it, just a little absurd.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I just find the whole concept of explaining the origins of life by suggesting it flew in from outer space, rather than starting on the only planet we know of that hosts it, just a little absurd.

Why? Crick was suggesting this as another avenue for life IF there are fundamental problems in explaining it. IF life didn't start here then it must have come from somewhere else.

In a much more quantitative sense, cosmologists infer the existence of dark matter and dark energy through the observations of other bodies. This is in large part how physics works: We make an observation and then suggest an explanation that can be tested. Also, how do you think most subatomic particles were found? Their existence was predicted and then verified.

 

[DaveC426913]

I just find the whole concept of explaining the origins of life by suggesting it flew in from outer space, rather than starting on the only planet we know of that hosts it, just a little absurd.

It is, but as was mentioned, this is getting pretty hard to swallow too:

The earliest known fossils exist in rocks that are 3.85 billion years old, leaving a mere 150 million years for life to have started.

 

[The Dagda]

I love the use of a mere 150 million years, lol. And how the hell do they know when conditions were adequate to begin abiogenesis.

By examining the time interval between such devastating environmental events, the time interval when life might first have come into existence can be found for different early environments. The study by Maher and Stephenson shows that if the deep marine hydrothermal setting provides a suitable site for the origin of life, abiogenesis could have happened as early as 4000 to 4200 Myr ago, whereas if it occurred at the surface of the Earth abiogenesis could only have occurred between 3700 and 4000 Myr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life

 

[CEL]

I love the use of a mere 150 million years, lol. And how the hell do they know when conditions were adequate to begin abiogenesis.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life

First of all, there should be liquid water. Secondly, there should exist the chemicals necessary for the synthesis of organic components. Finally an environment where those chemicals could be concentrated enough to interact with each other.
Energy for the reactions is also necessary,but this was available from the very beginning.

 

[JorgeLobo]

Dagda is right - it is not possible to know the conditions that led to initiation of life - tho it was probably a process rather than an event (short of bibilical/extrterrestial intervention). There is certainly no generally accepted scientific theory that explains the phenomenon that we presume is no longer happening.
As we don't know the critical elements - we can't project the probability of life existing by the same process elsewhere - Carl Sagan's "bulllions and bullions" pomposity not withstanding.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dagda is right - it is not possible to know the conditions that led to initiation of life

Yes, but it is possible to look at what conditions might prevent it.
1] How the heck stable was the Earth a mere 150my after formation? It was mostly magma.
2] How the heck did life get so advanced as to leave fossils in a mere 150my?
3] How the heck did life get such an impressive foothold in a mere 150my? Widespread enough for us to find these fossils. (As a comparison, there are only about 5 complete T.Rex skeletons in the world. This is an indication of how rare preserved fossils really are.)

Nobody's arguing it's impossible, it is just getting implausible. So, an alternate possibility is put forth: perhaps it had all the time it needed - somewhere else.

And really, what's so ridiculous about that? It started somewhere, why must it have been here?