Is Vaccination Necessary in the Age of Digital Singularity?

[DaveC426913]

Simple question:
Do you believe everyone who can do so should get vaccinated, or no?

 

[waht]

Simple question:
Do you believe everyone who can do so should get vaccinated, or no?

Only if you have stocks in the company producing the vaccines.

 

[Evo]

Yes, you should get vaccintaed. I get vaccinated every year and do not get sick.

Like I said in another thread, even if you personally don't care if you get the flu, you could infect someone that could die from it.

My employer offers free vaccinations in our office evey year, and no one gets sick. this year, due to the media hype, that had to order thousands of extra vaccines because they maxed out on the appointments so quickly.

I'd like people that vote no to say why.

Are you afraid of getting vaccinated, and if yes, why are you afraid?

 

[lisab]

I recently had H1N1, I think. It wasn't severe at all, in my case. I missed two days of work.

But as far as I know, I've never had the seasonal flu. Everyone I know who has had it (the real thing, not a cold or food poisoning) says it's just horrible, aches and pains and fever for many days, sometimes over a week.

A few years ago a coworker was on chemo, and we were asked to get a seasonal flu vaccination (voluntarily). So I did, of course, and with no ill effects.

I get one every year now. Perhaps I'll get through my whole life and never get the flu .

 

[Moonbear]

If you work in a healthcare setting, around children, have any susceptibility of respiratory illnesses (asthma, smoker, past history of pneumonia after flu), then definitely get vaccinated. If you are otherwise healthy, it's optional, and might be best to leave the vaccine available to those who need it more. There are some issues for those who may be immuno-compromised, and should discuss it with a physician. They're more susceptible to catching flu and having serious complications, but also are susceptible to serious complications from the vaccination too. If you have an egg allergy, absolutely do not get it (the vaccines are still made in eggs).

To me, the risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccination (and there is always a risk) needs to be carefully weighed against the risk of developing the illness or serious complications from it.

That, and the vaccine isn't even available here yet, and my students already are spreading the H1N1 flu around, so I figure by the time it's available, it'll be a waste of time and money...I'll either have had the flu, or been exposed and be immune from exposure. I think they're distributing it to health and EMS workers first.

Evo, your anectdotal evidence is only that. I have NEVER gotten a seasonal flu vaccine, and also have not gotten sick with seasonal flu. Most of us already have immunity to a lot of flus just from all of our childhood exposures.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'd like people that vote no to say why.

It's over-hyped - a knee-jerk reaction. It's just the flu. Hundreds of people die every year from flu yet they are not hyped like this.

 

[Evo]

It's over-hyped - a knee-jerk reaction. It's just the flu. Hundreds of people die every year from flu yet they are not hyped like this.

I absolutely agree that this flu is over hyped, see my posts here https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=348634

At the same time, I think getting a flu shot, if you are not allergic, is a smart thing to do. When I switched companies I found it odd that almost no one gets sick in the winter, then I found out two years later that almost everyone that works there gets flu shots. Now I get them too.

 

[Santa1]

Sure, if you want to get a Microsoft funded CIA super-duper drug company microchip installed in your brain through your blood stream (yes Windows 7 is that good apparently) so our evil lizard crocodile overlords can monitor you from their evil-inside-dormant-volcano-castle™ (*death lasers sold separately), then go ahead!

On a more serious note I will be getting the vaccine when I can, news channels reports it's just hit Norway kind of big.

 

[Pinu7]

I am still a teenager so I still have an irrational shot-phobia.

I will not get it as long as I can still convince my mom that "the H1N1 vaccine will have a 100% chance of causing AIDS."

 

[rootX]

It's over-hyped - a knee-jerk reaction. It's just the flu. Hundreds of people die every year from flu yet they are not hyped like this.

but then there was Spanish Flu

 

[Evo]

To me, the risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccination (and there is always a risk) needs to be carefully weighed against the risk of developing the illness or serious complications from it..

Isn't the risk of problems from the flu actually higher than the risk of serious adverse reactions to the vaccine?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'm getting the vaccine. I figure at my age what's the chance I'll become autistic?

 

[Moonbear]

Isn't the risk of problems from the flu actually higher than the risk of serious adverse reactions to the vaccine?

No, because the flu going around is actually very mild. The incidence of severe complications is low, even if the media is hyping it as something more than that. Keep in mind that one of the vaccines being used is a nasal spray which is a LIVE vaccine, not an attenuated vaccine. In many areas, it's the only version of the vaccine available. There is a risk that the live vaccine itself can infect you with the flu, especially if you are in one of the at-risk populations.

Now, in the other thread, you mentioned the risk of spreading flu to someone who is more susceptible, and that is why health care workers are being asked to get vaccinated, as is anyone who works or lives with someone susceptible. But, the best thing anyone can do to avoid infecting anyone else is just to stay home if they think they have flu, and not return until they are cleared by a doctor. And, it is helpful if employers are reasonable about their sick time policies and allow any employees who need to stay home longer to do so. As I'm telling my students, if they get sick, the first thing they need to do is get better. If they feel better but aren't cleared to return to classes yet, and want to get caught up from home, I'm helping them get make-up work by email. If necessary, I'll give them incompletes so they have extra time to catch up if they are out for an extended time and can't catch up before the end of the semester (though, I think they are getting more studying done while stuck home in bed than when they are well and running around socializing).

If it was the swine flu I caught this summer, the biggest reason it's going to spread easily is that it doesn't make you all that sick. That means people are more likely to keep going to work while they have it, and just think they have a cold rather than flu. And, more people will catch it this year because it's different enough from other flus that most people don't already have immunity.

 

[GeorginaS]

I knew there is a potential for a reaction to the seasonal flu vaccination, but it's a killed virus. It's my understanding (and of course there's a very good chance I'm entirely wrong) that contracting the disease from the inoculation doesn't happen. I got the seasonal flu shot last year because I was traveling out of country during flu season and our Travel Health Clinic recommended it. I got the seasonal flu shot this year because one of my co-workers is receiving chemo treatments and we're asking everyone in the office to do their best to take extra precautions because he has a compromised immune system. (We even managed to get our building to install hand sanitiser dispensers at the front and back doors of the building.)

And, we'll all get H1N1 vaccination too. It just got approved in Canada this past week, and they're asking healthy people to hold off until high-risk people get their shots first.

All flu shots are free to everyone this year. Generally they're free to high risk people, and we other folks pay for ours. There was a loophole to that, though, where all you had to do was say you were around high-risk people and you'd get your shot for free. I paid for mine. I don't mind contributing.

But should you get it? My GP always argued, no, that perfectly healthy people should not. He was high-risk being a GP and all, and he didn't get flu shots, because he wanted his body to develop its own immunities to the bugs. He didn't ever catch the flu in the eighteen years I've known him. I haven't ever had a flu shot prior to last year either and not had problems. A couple of friends of mine, who didn't get flu shots last year, and got the flu and said they wished someone would have put them out of their misery. I guess the muscle/joint/bone pain is pretty incredible. So, I don't know. There's a load of anecdotal evidence in both directions. And, with the seasonal flu shot, they're only guessing at which few pose the greatest risk any given year but don't always guess right, and a totally different strain takes off like mad.

H1N1, though, they do know is circulating and, while it's no worse than any other in terms of the effects of it, it has already crossed back from humans to pigs once again. So getting some relatively safe exposure to help build immunity before it mutates and crosses species yet again (if it hasn't already) is likely a good plan. And the more people who have immunity to a particular disease, the better off we all are, because then, even the people who aren't inoculated benefit from herd immunity.

I can't say I'm yet a believer in the seasonal flu vaccination, because there are too many variables in terms of what may or may not hit. (Plus, I get wicked swelling in my arm from that shot that makes me whine a great deal.) But I think a H1N1 shot is a good plan because it is one specific disease we know is behaving weirdly and we need to give the most vulnerable in our populations the most help and best chance we can.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm getting the vaccine. I figure at my age what's the chance I'll become autistic?

Actually, I have a friend with autistic children who is really struggling with whether to get them the vaccine or not. They have very altered immune systems, and have severe reactions to vaccinations. But, they are also in one of the populations of high risk for complications from the swine flu. We were just talking about this the other day. She said that she's not surprised people believe vaccines cause autism if they didn't notice the autism before the childhood vaccines were given. Her children were already clearly demonstrating signs of autism prior to any childhood vaccines, but had severe and bizarre reactions to the vaccines that set them back..so bad she thought one of them had a stroke. She has been looking into it, because her kids have unusual immune cells always present whenever they have blood draws for anything, and it seems this is very common in autistics. So, she always very carefully weighs the risk of severe illness against the almost certain severe reactions to vaccination before allowing any vaccinations now.

 

[Moonbear]

And, we'll all get H1N1 vaccination too. It just got approved in Canada this past week, and they're asking healthy people to hold off until high-risk people get their shots first.

Note that the primary seasonal flu this year is also an H1N1 virus. It gets very confusing. The CDC is calling the seasonal one "Seasonal H1N1" and the swine flu "2009 H1N1." I don't think that makes it much less confusing, since both are going around in 2009.

I just don't have a lot of confidence in the seasonal vaccines, partly because they are guessing every year, and partly because they need to give it every year. It seems that if you've gotten a bout of flu, you have immunity for a long time, yet the vaccine doesn't seem to provide that long term immunity that people need to keep getting it annually. With the swine flu vaccine, at least they know it's protecting against the actual virus going around, not just a guess at what one might go around.

One of my parents' friends is on immunosuppressants following a lung transplant. She's in one of those very high risk categories, so gets the flu vaccine every year, and then every year spends a week being sick from the reaction to the vaccine. I have to really think long and hard about how a vaccine would work in someone with a suppressed immune system, though, because I would think the immunosuppression would prevent the vaccine from doing anything.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Actually, I have a friend with autistic children who is really struggling with whether to get them the vaccine or not.

Is she afraid they'll become even more autistic? The vaccine-autism link is so well known to be a deliberate fraud that the only people still pushing it are those whose 15 minutes are up and they can't let go.

 

[NeoDevin]

But should you get it? My GP always argued, no, that perfectly healthy people should not. He was high-risk being a GP and all, and he didn't get flu shots, because he wanted his body to develop its own immunities to the bugs. He didn't ever catch the flu in the eighteen years I've known him.

I would recommend getting a new GP. One who uses evidence and science based medicine, and doesn't put his patients at risk.

 

[OmCheeto]

If you work in a healthcare setting, around children, have any susceptibility of respiratory illnesses (asthma, smoker, past history of pneumonia after flu), then definitely get vaccinated. If you are otherwise healthy, it's optional, and might be best to leave the vaccine available to those who need it more. ...

I agree, but you forgot one group:

http://www.capitalpress.com/orewash/TH-h1n1-102309-infobox"
Updated: Saturday, October 24, 2009 11:03 AM
H1N1 in pigs was inevitable, producers say
Industry reiterates that meat even from diseased swine is safe
By TIM HEARDEN
Capital Press

Now that the H1N1 virus has been detected in at least one pig shown at the Minnesota State Fair, the U.S. pork industry is taking the development in stride -- and hoping everyone else will, too.

Poor pigs...

From the http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/pubhealth/flu/flu_09/bulletins/flu_bul_01_20091023.pdf" from the other thread:

Among the 28 confirmed cases that have died, 25 (89%) had underlying chronic medical conditions reported,...

Among cases that are currently or have previously been hospitalized, a number of underlying medical conditions have been reported, including but not limited to diabetes, cardiovascular conditions, renal conditions and pulmonary conditions.

humans that is.

 

[GeorginaS]

I just don't have a lot of confidence in the seasonal vaccines, partly because they are guessing every year, and partly because they need to give it every year. It seems that if you've gotten a bout of flu, you have immunity for a long time, yet the vaccine doesn't seem to provide that long term immunity that people need to keep getting it annually. With the swine flu vaccine, at least they know it's protecting against the actual virus going around, not just a guess at what one might go around.

That's what I was trying to say, Moonbie. The seasonal vaccine is a studied guess that I haven't ever had much confidence in, but H1N1 is different.

Here, as best I know, we're getting the regular flu vaccine and H1N1 all by itself. The regular vaccine has already long been out (although there's a huge push this year to get as many people vaccinated as possible with loads, and loads of flu shot clinics opening up everywhere) and we've already got the shot. People I know are now all waiting the requisite time period before going for H1N1, which was only approved this week at any rate.

I would recommend getting a new GP. One who uses evidence and science based medicine, and doesn't put his patients at risk.

He didn't. And he's one of the most brilliant diagnosticians I've ever met; the breadth of his knowledge on all things medical -- including less-than-conventional stuff -- along with his diligence to remain as absolutely current as he can in terms of information and new developments has made him the very best doctor I've had in my life. He has, for the 17 years I've known him, been nothing but stellar.

 

[Monique]

I have to really think long and hard about how a vaccine would work in someone with a suppressed immune system, though, because I would think the immunosuppression would prevent the vaccine from doing anything.

That's true, it's the same with elderly people who don't have a well-working immune system: they don't build up long-term immunity with one shot. The Netherlands is going to give these immunocompromised groups a second 'booster' shot of the vaccine, because otherwise you might as well not vaccinate them at all.

 

[magpies]

If the virus mutates enough the vac will have been worthless I believe anyone know if this is correct or not?

 

[BobG]

Yes, you should get vaccintaed. I get vaccinated every year and do not get sick.

Like I said in another thread, even if you personally don't care if you get the flu, you could infect someone that could die from it.

My employer offers free vaccinations in our office evey year, and no one gets sick. this year, due to the media hype, that had to order thousands of extra vaccines because they maxed out on the appointments so quickly.

I'd like people that vote no to say why.

Are you afraid of getting vaccinated, and if yes, why are you afraid?

I avoid flu vaccinations like the plague and March 2008 was the first time I missed a day of work/school because of illness since March 1970 (neither were the flu).

Why am I afraid of flu shots? Because they're different each year. I assume they've been tested and are mostly safe, but no one puts out products with a 100% flawless rate (Avandria, Paxil, Vioxx, Fen Phen, among others). While the chance of any vaccine being harmful is very small, the more different drugs you ingest, the larger the chance of getting a harmful one.

I think it's a good idea to limit all drug use (including vaccines) only to those drugs that you have an actual need for. I rarely get sick and recover quickly when I do (colds, etc). I don't consider myself to carry much risk of dying from the flu.

Even more importantly, shots hurt.

 

[russ_watters]

Simple question:
Do you believe everyone who can do so should get vaccinated, or no?

I do, but I don't care enough to take the time out of my day to do it.

 

[Topher925]

If the virus mutates enough the vac will have been worthless I believe anyone know if this is correct or not?

Yes, this is exactly what happens and is why there are new flu vaccines every year. Your flu shot from 2 years ago is going to do nothing against the modern strains that exist now. And probably within a year, the main flu virus going around now will then mutate into something else which you will need another new vaccine for.


I personally never get flu shots anymore. The only time I've ever been severely ill from a flu virus was actually when I got a flu shot. Since I stopped getting them, I've stopped getting sick. I of course don't recommend this for everyone though. Some people do need to get vaccinated, its just not for me.

 

[rootX]

I am not going to get it but I hope most people would get it

 

[Evo]

I've only had the flu twice, once when I was 20 and then 4 years ago. I had never bothered with the vaccine before. But after that last bout, I'd rather risk side effects (which I have never had) than go through another episode like that. Georgina is right, the bone/joint/muscle pain is excrutiating. I think most people think they had the flu, when it was only a bad cold, or it was a very mild flu. Once you have a bad case, you will be camping out waiting for the vaccine.

I am pro-vaccine, but that's based on my actually having had a serious case of flu. I guess if you haven't been that sick, it's not an issue.

 

[Evo]

For those that are afraid of the vaccine. Maybe this will help.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_he_me/us_med_swine_flu_side_effects

 

[JasonRox]

As I'm telling my students, if they get sick, the first thing they need to do is get better. If they feel better but aren't cleared to return to classes yet, and want to get caught up from home, I'm helping them get make-up work by email. If necessary, I'll give them incompletes so they have extra time to catch up if they are out for an extended time and can't catch up before the end of the semester (though, I think they are getting more studying done while stuck home in bed than when they are well and running around socializing).

I had one student walk in my seminar to tell me he's not feeling well and can't make it today. He said it all quiet.

I spoke loud and clear to him so the rest of the class can hear... "If you are sick or feel sick, do NOT come to school. Do NOT come to school. I don't care if you have a quiz, assignment due, do NOT come to school." The rest of the class heard. This is true regardless of which flu season whether it was 10 years ago, or in the midst of H1N1 as of now. You DON'T go out when you're sick. It's NOT that difficult.

It's my 4th year as a Teaching Assistant, and I must say that kids are really getting dumber every year. I used to expect students to know what a derivative is coming out of high school. Now, my expectations are... I have my fingers crossed in hopes they are comfortable adding fractions.

 

[Monique]

There are always these people who are very proud that they never missed a single day of work and come in no matter how sick they are and then say "oh, I'm feeling so sick, but I'm still here to do my job"

 

[GeorginaS]

The debate for whether or not I should have been vaccinated decided, all I can say now is, owwwww! I'm whining.

 

[Count Iblis]

It's over-hyped - a knee-jerk reaction. It's just the flu. Hundreds of people die every year from flu yet they are not hyped like this.

It may be the case that the Swine flu is overall as deadly as ordinary flu and quite a but milder that ordinary flu in most cases. But then the statistics also show that 30% of the people that died from it were young and healthy. That's definitely not what happens in case of ordinary flu.

 

[Evo]

I got my flu vaccination yesterday. No reaction. I haven't had the H1N1 vaccination though, but I will if it becomes available. I had the swine flu back in 1976, so perhaps I have some small amount of immunity, even though it's mutated.

 

[Alfi]

If anyone here has paid for the shot, how much was it?

 

[rootX]

Personally, I am hearing a lot that lots of people are taking sick leaves these days. I was also sent home when they found that my coworker got swine flu as a precaution. I went to doctor to get I am good certificate (He refused to do a flu check on me because I need to have some symptoms) but I didn't ask for the shot- shots hurt! :shy:

 

[Norman]

I got my regular season flu vaccination today. And 20 minutes ago, I was notified that a child at the daycare both my kids attend tested positive for H1N1... my daughter is only 5 months old and my son is 2, so it is a little scary to consider them getting it...

So, in all likelihood, the arrival of the H1N1 vaccine will not be in time to matter for my family... (we don't have access to it yet here).

 

[Sorry!]

I got my regular season flu vaccination today. And 20 minutes ago, I was notified that a child at the daycare both my kids attend tested positive for H1N1... my daughter is only 5 months old and my son is 2, so it is a little scary to consider them getting it...

So, in all likelihood, the arrival of the H1N1 vaccine will not be in time to matter for my family... (we don't have access to it yet here).

Why's it taking so long to get the vacinations to some areas?

Kind of worrisome. It's a good thing they can deploy upwards of 200 000 soldiers to any part of the world pretty much over night with all the necessary equipment etc. though.

 

[Count Iblis]

You can also make your bunker ready, just in case...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7379741.stm

Alex Steffen, a journalist and editor based in Seattle, is one of those "daring to prepare" for a coming "tiny apocalypse".

"The systems we rely on are brittle and facing strain," he says. "Here in Seattle we are vulnerable to earthquakes and I also live near a big volcano. Climate change is causing more extreme weather events. There could be a global bird flu outbreak or some other pandemic."

For these reasons, Steffen and his girlfriend have stocked six weeks' worth of food in their basement and have invested in a water-purifying kit. "We are taking precautions," he says, referring to himself as an "urban liberal survivalist".

 

[NeoDevin]

I got my swine flu vaccine today!

 

[Alfi]

If anyone here has paid for the shot, how much was it?

Why is it so hard to get a single answer to my question?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

How much ?

 

[Count Iblis]

Why is it so hard to get a single answer to my question?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

How much ?

I have to pay €25 for the ordinary flu vaccine.

 

[skeptic2]

There are so many unknowns it's difficult to answer a question like this. What if the virus mutates and becomes much more deadly. Will the existing vaccine still offer protection.

I understand vaccines typically take about 6 weeks to reach full potency. What will the H1N1 situation be in 6 weeks?

My 12 yo daughter contracted the flu about 2 weeks ago. The doctor said since it was too early for the regular flu season she assumed all flu right now was the swine flu. My daughter was better in one day.

It would seem that in order to stop the flu from spreading, each infected person would on the average be able to infect less than one other person. If the probability of infecting someone you come in contact with is 0.4 and you come in contact with 5 other people, you potentially could infect 2 other people. However, if over 50% of the population were immune either by vaccination or by previous exposure, it's likely the flu wouldn't be able to spread.

 

[GeorginaS]

H1N1 shot is the one I had last night. It's entirely free, here, with loads of clinics available. The wait-times are still up to 5 hours at some clinics. I lucked out with no wait-time last night.

Lots of muscle aches today and a very sore arm. I think I'll live.

 

[NeoDevin]

I work (study) in a cancer facility, so mine are free, and I hardly have to wait in line at all.

 

[Sorry!]

Flu shots are free here too... Just a pretty long wait time like 7 hours for some people and at the moment they are only giving the vaccination to those who are at greatest risk. Next week they will move ahead allowing more people. I don't think there is anywhere in Ontario that doesn't have access to the vaccination and there is enough vaccination for every person in the province to be vaccinated. They are also opening up extra clinics and keeping them open later and the hospitals/clinics are also doing their part in dealing with flu patients.

I find it incredible that areas in the USA apparently have no access to the vaccination...

 

[lisab]

Why is it so hard to get a single answer to my question?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

How much ?

I've never had to pay for a flu vaccine, my work gives them free.

 

[NeoDevin]

I find it incredible that areas in the USA apparently have no access to the vaccination...

It's that "world leading" health care system they have.

 

[Evo]

It's a shame that so many people have to go out of their way to get the vaccine and pay for it. I only started getting the vaccine because it's free and they come to our office an give them to us and I also got a bag full of great gifts.

 

[DaveC426913]

I also got a bag full of great gifts.

Hm. I think I could be bribed into getting a shot if they plied me with chocolate and toys...

 

[rootX]

@Ontario:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5j__YCUUWjWBvmmVjg0VP5K0o4kgA

I don't know how much these vaccines cost but meeting with the demand looks like a tough job.