Isochoric Process with Unknown Ideal Gas

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem from Engineering Thermodynamics involving an ideal gas undergoing an isochoric process. Participants explore how to determine the final gage pressure of the gas given initial conditions, while grappling with the unknown specific gas constant R due to the unspecified nature of the gas.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Preston outlines the problem and expresses uncertainty about which specific gas constant R to use, given that the gas type is not specified.
  • Preston attempts to derive the final gage pressure using the ideal gas law, but questions the necessity of solving for specific volume v.
  • Participants discuss the relationship between initial and final states of the gas, noting that certain variables remain constant throughout the process.
  • Chet poses a question about the constancy of n, R, and V, which is affirmed by another participant.
  • A participant clarifies that the relationship P1/T1 = P2/T2 can be used to solve the problem, independent of R and v.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the relationships involved in the problem, but there is still uncertainty regarding the specific gas constant R and its implications for the solution.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence on the specific gas constant R, which is not provided, and the implications this has on the ability to solve the problem directly. There are also unresolved aspects regarding the assumptions made about the gas properties.

Preston
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I was assigned a problem in my Engineering Thermodynamics class as follows:
Problem:
An ideal gas in a rigid closed container undergoes isochoric heating from T1 = 27 C to T2 = 77 C. Initial gage pressure is 300 kPa, pressure of surroundings is 1 atm.
Find the final gage pressure.

The way to go about solving the problem seems straight forward, as I will show my train of thought below. The only thing I am stuck up on is what R value to use for this particular ideal gas, since the gas itself is not specified, nor it's volume, nor it's specific volume, nor it's mass.

Relevant Equations:
Pv = RT

Attempted Solution:

Here's how I attempted it:

Knowns: T1 = 27 C, T2 = 77 C, Pgage1 = 300 kPa, Psurround = 1 atm
Trying to find: Pgage2

For an ideal gas, Pv = RT, where v = specific volume (m3/kg) and R = specific gas constant (J/kgK). If I know what R value to use, I can solve for v:

v = (RT1)/P1 where P1 = Pgage1+Psurround (in Pa)

Then, because volume V is constant, and the unknown arbitrary mass m is constant, so is v
by the relationship

v = V/m

Then I would find P2:

P2 = (RT2)/v

It follows,

Pgage2 = P2 - Psurround (in Pa)

That's all folks. Maybe I am missing something rather obvious here, or taking the wrong approach. Again, the only thing I am stuck on is what the specific gas constant R should be. I can not solve for it with it's definition since R = R/M = nR where R is the universal gas constant (8.314 J/molK), M is molar mass of the gas, and n is moles of the gas. I have consulted Tables in the back of my text, and R is given for monatomic or diatomic ideal gas as is to be expected, but again, I'm not given those specifics in the problem. Any help is appreciated! :)

- Preston
 
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Preston said:
Find the final gage pressure.
Preston said:
If I know what R value to use, I can solve for v:
Why?
 
Why solve for v, or why am I justified in saying that?

v = (RT1)/P1 and everything on right hand side is known (if I know what R to use). Why am solving for v in the first place--

I can use the fact that v is constant through the process (remember, the system is a constant volume closed container) to solve for P2 (absolute, not gage)

P2 = (RT2)/v again, everything on the right is known at this point. Knowing the final absolute pressure allows me to solve for final gage pressure

Pgage2 = P2 - Psurround

The last two equations were in my original post, but I hope this clarifies my thought process for you.
 
Preston said:
v = (RT1)/P1
Preston said:
P2 = (RT2)/v
Preston said:
(remember, the system is a constant volume closed container)
Think.
 
True or false: The values of n, R, and V are the same in the initial and final states of the gas.

Chet
 
Chet, that is true. Bystander, I see what you are getting at now!

In both cases, (Pv)/RT = 1

so (P1v)/(RT1) = P2v/RT2 and R and v will cancel out of each side showing that the following relationship is independent of them:

P1/T1 = P2/T2 and now I can solve. Thats what I get for still being up at 3 am when I woke up 6:30 am. Ha.

Thanks so much!
 

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