NASA James Hansen’s Former NASA Supervisor Declares Himself a Skeptic

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James Hansen's former NASA supervisor has declared skepticism towards anthropogenic global warming (AGW), raising questions about the credibility of the scientific consensus on climate change. The discussion highlights a perceived increase in dissent among scientists, with references to a group of 650 scientists opposing AGW, which some participants label as a fringe element. The debate touches on the influence of political agendas and funding on scientific research, suggesting that biases exist on both sides of the argument. Participants argue about the validity of comparing dissenting scientists across different fields and the importance of rigorous evidence in evaluating claims. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the complexity of the AGW debate and the need for ongoing scrutiny of scientific data and methodologies.
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So are scientists dropping AGW or distancing them selves from it, is $trillion to much to gamble with?
 
Before all, science should be about science, the art of finding out how things really work, and not pursuing political goals.
 
...We have just received a request from an Italian scientist, and a Czech scientist to join the 650 dissenting scientists report...

Recall that I already posted a link showing that there are more scientists than this who refute evolution theory.

Is everyone jumping on the creationist bandwagon as well?
 
Ivan Seeking said:
Recall that I already posted a link showing that there are more scientists than this who refute evolution theory.

So, maybe we shouldn't be listening to all these scientists because a bunch of other scientists from an unrelated field refute evolution?
 
drankin said:
So, maybe we shouldn't be listening to all these scientists because a bunch of other scientists from an unrelated field refute evolution?

I would say that 650 scientists amount to nothing more than a fringe element.

I can probably find 650 scientists who think ET is visiting us as well.
 
Andre said:
Before all, science should be about science, the art of finding out how things really work, and not pursuing political goals.


Andre, who would gain from AGW, i guess now the political ball is rolling it will be hard to stop it, it has all ways seemed to me that politicians do not need facts.
 
wolram said:
Andre, who would gain from AGW...

Who stands to gain by arguing against it? Could it be big oil?
 
Ivan Seeking said:
I would say that 650 scientists amount to nothing more than a fringe element.

I can probably find 650 scientists who think ET is visiting us as well.

I guess we need to compare the scientist counts. How many are for and against. And what constitutes as a "fringe".
 
  • #10
Everyone knows all scientists who support AGW are only in it to jump on the band wagon so they can get grants and funding from new age hippies et al. Besides I heard someone say they were all idiots who have no idea what they are talking about, I think it might of been the Chairman of Exxon before he was launched into space?

In all seriousness skepticism is what science is about, so who cares about the doubters, they are only there to either destroy or make the theory stronger by failing, that is after all science?
 
  • #11
drankin said:
I guess we need to compare the scientist counts. How many are for and against. And what constitutes as a "fringe".

Are scientists who refute evolution theory fringe, or mainstream? What about ET believers?

Show me a crackpot group that doesn't claim a few scientists. Woud you like to talk about magnet therapy?
 
  • #12
Ivan Seeking said:
Who stands to gain by arguing against it? Could it be big oil?

It could be big oil. And on the otherside, big government (taxes). But that's not the point. Comes down to data interpretation so far as I can see.
 
  • #13
Ivan Seeking said:
Are scientists who refute evolution theory fringe, or mainstream?

I don't know and I don't care, it's not the topic.
 
  • #14
anybody bothered to google for Enron + kyoto?
 
  • #15
drankin said:
I don't know and I don't care, it's not the topic.

Indeed.

I would agree that you certainly can't compare numbers in one field with numbers in a completely different field, without giving any data on the relative size of the communities.
 
  • #16
drankin said:
I don't know and I don't care, it's not the topic.

It sure is; it speaks to the issue of consensus vs fringe.
 
  • #17
Ivan Seeking said:
It sure is; it speaks to the issue of consensus vs fringe.

I think Bohmian mechanics vs quantum mechanics with the Copenhagen interpretation would be a better analogy, then you can ignore all the fundamentalists.

I think the issue of expertise is a good one, I'm far more likely to take a scientist in the field seriously than I am a geologist or a physicist even.
 
  • #18
cristo said:
Indeed.

I would agree that you certainly can't compare numbers in one field with numbers in a completely different field, without giving any data on the relative size of the communities.

The "650 scientists" were cited in the link from the op. And as I said, I already linked a story about scientists who refute evolution in a thread in P&WA. IIRC, they claim over 700 scientists, so clearly they have the upper hand compared to this group. :rolleyes:

Excuse me, you said relative size. How many scientists work in related fields? I would say that AGW is a much broader subject.
 
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  • #21
Andre, how much revenue does your country receive from North Sea oil?
 
  • #22
Just because more people voted to put Bush in office doesn't make him or them right any more than a bunch of "supposed" scientists "voting" on the issue of global warming.

It's not a vote. The only real vote is the evidence and what it reveals.

The rest is opinion derived from imperfect perspectives and motives and foundational faith - interpretational accuracy in matters that effect livelihood and grant funding and even touch matters of religion, I'd say is dubiously quantifiable.
 
  • #23
As to the original post, that headline is from the Republican Minority reporting through their page on the Senate EPW Web site.

That put's it a hair less reactionary than citing Rush Limbaugh.
 
  • #24
Remember, the current view on AGW is supposedly supported by a "consensus" of scientists. That's why the relative size of a dissenting group could be important.
 
  • #25
seycyrus said:
Remember, the current view on AGW is supposedly supported by a "consensus" of scientists. That's why the relative size of a dissenting group could be important.

We have to take into account 3 things

  • Bias on both sides
  • Qualifications of those who deny/accept it
  • Funding by who?

which all boils down to ulterior motive, in science we can resort to authority but I think it's better to resort to more rigorously examined authority. In the case of AGW we have that I think. It doesn't mean they are right, it just means they have better cards in their hand atm.
 
  • #26
seycyrus said:
Remember, the current view on AGW is supposedly supported by a "consensus" of scientists. That's why the relative size of a dissenting group could be important.


Yes, and do we know which scientists took part in the census and if they were politically impartial, to my mind this debate needs freshening up.
 
  • #27
The Dagda said:
... In the case of AGW we have that I think.

I don't think we do.

After sifting through evidence including a fair amount of information gathered from this forum, I am less convinced than I once was.

As to the "consensus"... I am certain about that. There *never* was a consensus. Maybe a consensus of people who already believed...

I still remember the uproar at the APS social policy meeting several years back when the statement reporting the "consensus" was read out loud.
 
  • #28
seycyrus said:
I don't think we do.

After sifting through evidence including a fair amount of information gathered from this forum, I am less convinced than I once was.

As to the "consensus"... I am certain about that. There *never* was a consensus. Maybe a consensus of people who already believed...

I still remember the uproar at the APS social policy meeting several years back when the statement reporting the "consensus" was read out loud.

Evidence from where and whom and were they specialists in the field can I ask? Even the IPCC was anti global warming until the early 90's, what made them change their minds do you think? Funding? political agendas?

Anyone who basis his opinion on a forums evidence is sadly neglecting to look into it themselves, if all you are getting is the contrary opinion then you aren't getting anything balanced.

It would be nice to think that those who shout the loudest and most ardently for or against are right by default of persistence, but then we have Gore and Bush. And we don't want to go there. :eek:
 
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  • #29
Ivan Seeking said:
Are scientists who refute evolution theory fringe, or mainstream? What about ET believers?

Show me a crackpot group that doesn't claim a few scientists. Woud you like to talk about magnet therapy?
You are dragging this thread off topic with irrelevant posts.

The scientists in the OP are using valid science and are talking about the problems with methods and data. Flaws in the modules used have been proven. Flaws in the methodolgy have been proven - flaws with how the data was used, included, or omitted has been proven.

Please remain on topic.
 
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  • #30
The Dagda said:
Evidence from where and whom and were they specialists in the field can I ask? Even the IPCC was anti global warming until the early 90's, what made them change their minds do you think? Funding? political agendas?

well The IPCC was
established in 1988 by two United Nations Organizations, the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environment Programme to assess “the scientific, technical and socioeconomic information relevant for the understanding of the risk of human-induced climate change.”...

The First Assessment Report (FAR), completed in 1990, played an important role in establishing the Intergovernmental Negotiating Committee for the UNFCCC which provides the overall policy framework for addressing the climate change issue. In its scientific findings the FAR concluded:

“Anthropogenic climate change will persist for many centuries.”

The bold part may suggest that the conclusions were already clear before the research was done
 
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  • #31
The Dagda said:
Evidence from where and whom and were they specialists in the field can I ask? Even the IPCC was anti global warming until the early 90's, what made them change their minds do you think? Funding? political agendas?

First off, I'm not going to list my sources.

They were anti-GW until the early 90's!? Did the data from the last 10,000 years change all of a sudden then? Yes, I think that funding linked to political agendas could very well have something to do with their change in stance.

The Dagda said:
Anyone who basis his opinion on a forums evidence is sadly neglecting to look into it themselves, if all you are getting is the contrary opinion then you aren't getting anything balanced.


I think I made it clear that this forum was not the sole source of my information.

The moderators on this site do a good job on insisting that arguments stated are supported and referenced. Especially when it come to GW, imho.

The Dagda said:
It would be nice to think that those who shout the loudest and most ardently for or against are right by default of persistence, but then we have Gore and Bush...

No, then we would have the current global warming argument situation.
 
  • #32
Ivan Seeking said:
Recall that I already posted a link showing that there are more scientists than this who refute evolution theory.

I can't find it. Could you repost it here?
 
  • #33
seycyrus said:
Remember, the current view on AGW is supposedly supported by a "consensus" of scientists. That's why the relative size of a dissenting group could be important.

Unfortunately there is no criteria for voting. And who's counting the votes anyway? Norm Coleman?

The whole idea of votes is itself silly.

It's where is the preponderance of the science? And while I think not all of the evidence is compelling there is certainly reason for consideration of the fossil record and further study given the blossoming population and demands for energy and its consequences.
 
  • #34
I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between. I don't agree with the gloom and doom alarmists, and I don't agree that humans aren't responsible for pollution. For me, the question of what human agriculture, building, deforestation, and fuel burning are doing remains to be accurately answered, but should continue to be studied, realistically.
 
  • #35
Evo said:
I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between. I don't agree with the gloom and doom alarmists, and I don't agree that humans aren't responsible for pollution. For me, the question of what human agriculture, building, deforestation, and fuel burning are doing remains to be accurately answered, but should continue to be studied, realistically.

Except of course that the issue is highly politicized as evidenced by the initial citation of this thread from the Republican Minority view dramatizing someone's opinion who once - more than 15 years ago - laid claim to be Hansen's supervisor even though he had no authority to actually review Hansen's performance.
 
  • #36
LowlyPion said:
Unfortunately there is no criteria for voting. And who's counting the votes anyway? Norm Coleman?

The whole idea of votes is itself silly.

It's where is the preponderance of the science? And while I think not all of the evidence is compelling there is certainly reason for consideration of the fossil record and further study given the blossoming population and demands for energy and its consequences.

I believe that is where the debate is, the preponderance is not there. The conclusions are not "conclusive". Otherwise there would be little debate on the subject.
 
  • #37
Before the thread was pulled off topic, it was about more scientists coming out on the skeptic side of the AGW debate.
 
  • #38
LowlyPion said:
Except of course that the issue is highly politicized as evidenced by the initial citation of this thread from the Republican Minority view dramatizing someone's opinion who once - more than 15 years ago - laid claim to be Hansen's supervisor even though he had no authority to actually review Hansen's performance.

He didn't review his performance but, more importantly, he , "...had to justify his funding, allocate his resources, and evaluate his results..." Theon was the Chief of the Climate Processes Research Program at NASA Headquarters and former Chief of the Atmospheric Dynamics & Radiation Branch. A man at that level should have something to say about one of his underlings' embarrassing activities.
 
  • #39
Evo said:
Before the thread was pulled off topic, it was about more scientists coming out on the skeptic side of the AGW debate.

And even that is hard to find out, may be some one could dig some upto date figures out, i sure can not find any, who is to know if any list is comprehensive there may be many more for all we know, even so, how in all this mess could we know if a scientist has political motives for expressing an opinion one way or the other.
 
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  • #40
wolram said:
And even that is hard to find out, may be some one could dig some upto date figures out, i sure can not find any, who is to know if any list is comprehensive there may be many more for all we know, even so, how in all this mess could we know if a scientist has political motives for expressing an opinion one way or the other.

Much rests on the reputation of those named on both sides, IMO.
 
  • #41
Ivan Seeking said:
I would say that 650 scientists amount to nothing more than a fringe element.

I can probably find 650 scientists who think ET is visiting us as well.

650? The IPCC Physical Science Basis paper has more coauthors than that.
Front Matter said:
The chapters forming the bulk of this report describe scientists’
assessment of the state-of-knowledge in their respective fields. They
were written by 152 coordinating lead authors and lead authors from
over 30 countries and reviewed by over 600 experts. A large number of
government reviewers also contributed review comments.

http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-wg1.htm
 
  • #42
Maybe a look at consensus in science. What I have read and understand is those words only belong together when speaking of fringe groups and not science. The theory of science is to be a sceptic trying to prove or disprove a theory. The more sceptics, the more research the better the theory unless it fails due to the inherent weaknesses such as those that plague the AGW theory.
I will not attack either man as the actions and words of those on both sides are available for all to judge and history will judge by future actions.
 
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  • #43
signerror said:
650? The IPCC Physical Science Basis paper has more coauthors than that.


http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-wg1.htm
If you look at the actual numbers, we're talking a literal handful of scientists. The IPCC was sued under the Freedom of Information Act and forced to release the WG 1 report that it withheld from the public. They then quickly hid the report moving it here http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/7794905?n=2&imagesize=1200&jp2Res=.25

It’s an assertion repeated by politicians and climate campaigners the world over – ‘2,500 scientists of the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) agree that humans are causing a climate crisis’.

But it’s not true. And, for the first time ever, the public can now see the extent to which they have been misled. As lies go, it’s a whopper. Here’s the real situation.

There is, of course serious debate among scientists about the actual technical content of the roughly 1,000-page WG I report, especially its politically motivated Summary for Policymakers which is often the only part read by politicians and non-scientists. The technical content can be difficult for non-scientists to follow and so most people simply assume that if that large numbers of scientists agree, they must be right.

Consensus never proves the truth of a scientific claim, but is somehow widely believed to do so for the IPCC reports, so we need to ask how many scientists really did agree with the most important IPCC conclusion, namely that humans are causing significant climate change--in other words the key parts of WG I?

The numbers of scientist reviewers involved in WG I is actually less than a quarter of the whole, a little over 600 in total. The other 1,900 reviewers assessed the other working group reports. They had nothing to say about the causes of climate change or its future trajectory. Still, 600 “scientific expert reviewers” sounds pretty impressive. After all, they submitted their comments to the IPCC editors who assure us that “all substantive government and expert review comments received appropriate consideration.” And since these experts reviewers are all listed in Annex III of the report, they must have endorsed it, right?

Wrong.

For the first time ever, the UN has released on the Web the comments of reviewers who assessed the drafts of the WG I report and the IPCC editors’ responses. This release was almost certainly a result of intense pressure applied by “hockey-stick” co-debunker Steve McIntyre of Toronto and his allies. Unlike the other IPCC working groups, WG I is based in the U.S. and McIntyre had used the robust Freedom of Information legislation to request certain details when the full comments were released.

An examination of reviewers’ comments on the last draft of the WG I report before final report assembly (i.e. the ‘Second Order Revision’ or SOR) completely debunks the illusion of hundreds of experts diligently poring over all the chapters of the report and providing extensive feedback to the editing teams. Here’s the reality.

A total of 308 reviewers commented on the SOR, but only 32 reviewers commented on more than three chapters and only five reviewers commented on all 11 chapters of the report. Only about half the reviewers commented more than one chapter. It is logical that reviewers would generally limit their comments to their areas of expertise but it’s a far cry from the idea of thousands of scientists agreeing to anything.
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/968
 
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  • #45
Wow, Evo!

So, the 650 scientists that reject the IPCC's conclusions are more than those that may officially endorse it. No matter how many reviewed and commented, the information that made up the report was chosen by the IPCC. Which may or may not reflect the conclusion or professional opinions of the majority that reviewed their respective pieces of pie.

How can this be considered a consensus?
 
  • #48
And, to warm to the subject. Whatever one's personal political beliefs, most of us have science backgrounds/education and ought to know how to check facts. Look at the list of dissenting scientists. Who are they? What journals in climatology, fluid mechanics, or applied mechanics have they edited? What seminal papers have they published? To wit, one of the "prominent" US scientists mentioned is David Wojick. He has degrees in civil engineering and philosophy of science. His opinion is germane how?

Everybody gets to have their own opinion, but not their own facts. (stole that from Pat Moynihan).
 
  • #49
TVP45 said:
The magic word on there is "Inhofe". This is his blog. Asking Inhofe about climate change is akin to asking Madalyn Murray O'Hair about the Pope.
But this isn't Inhofe's opinions, is it?

And when the non-climate scientists are proven to be right and the "climate scientists" are proven wrong, do you take the wrong information over the correct information?
 
  • #50
TVP45:
Nothing personal but you might want to look closer at the supporters of AGW/ACC/CAGW. What the backgrounds are might shine some light. An Economist is head of IPCC panel. The science was not released until it matched the policy guide. This has all been about showing proof not envestigating causes. Cause was determined first. And people call it science?
 

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