LabratSR
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Discovery Channel Special on Japan's Nuclear Crisis TONIGHT - 10:00pm eastern April 28, 2011 http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/special.html?paid=1.14144.26383.0.0
AtomicWombat said:The radiation measurment rose after the start of N2 injection. N2 injection will do 2 things 1) stir up the contents of wherever it's being injected; and 2) create void space.
Void space in the water will reduce shielding from the radiation sources. Stirring could spread the radiation around.
All this is speculation. I don't even know whether the N2 is injected into the RPV or dry-well.
MiceAndMen said:Toshiba web page describing what happens during a core shroud replacement.
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/nuclearenergy/english/maintenance/replace/shroud03.htm
Initially the RPV is filled with water. In later stages, the RPV is empty. It sounds like a milling machine works underwater and takes off metal at some point to reduce the radiation. The shavings are then removed to the equipment pool. That may explain the thermal images we saw that implied the reactor well was hot.
http://www.irpa.net/irpa10/cdrom/00584.pdf
Further describes the chemical and mechanical decontamination at Unit 2 when its core shroud was replaced years ago.
What I don't understand is if it's possible to decontaminate the inside of a reactor this way, why is it necessary to put decommissioned reactors into SAFSTOR mode for decades? Why not just decontaminate them, cut them up into pieces, and dispose of them?
They have one line intact, and their 8 EDGs are available.TVA said it had never experienced anything like the passage of several storm systems through its 80,000 square mile service area. Each one caused more damage to transmission lines until over 100 transmission elements were knocked out and some 677,000 homes left without power.
The three boiling water reactors at TVA's Browns Ferry nuclear power plant in Alabama shut down automatically with cooling systems powered by "a combination of offsite transmission and on-site diesel generators." However, the shutdown was notified as an 'unusual event' to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission "when the normal and alternate power supplies for essential equipment were unavailable for more than 15 minutes." TVA stressed that "safety systems performed well."
jlduh said:A message to Jorge Stolfi: as you spent a good time in the modelization of the buildings and reviewed some of the drawings available, if you have a chance to modelize also the turbine buildings maybe you could do a rough estimate of the volume that can be contained in the basements of the turbine buildings (so below the level of the platform ground)? .
Reno Deano said:Decontamination of the RPV interior surface just removed radioactive surface corrosion/wear particles adhered to it. The RPV is still irradiated/radioactive and shielding is still needed for workers on the support platform.
Astronuc said:This how it's supposed to work -
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Browns_Ferry_hit_by_major_storms_2804112.html
They have one line intact, and their 8 EDGs are available.
LabratSR said:Discovery Channel Special on Japan's Nuclear Crisis TONIGHT - 10:00pm eastern April 28, 2011 http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/special.html?paid=1.14144.26383.0.0
I guess two men was Japanese.ceebs said:Well if they take questions, we need the contact addresses of those two to send them questions to ask
MadderDoc said:http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2011/04/18/japan-nuclear-agency-reactor-building-4s-basement-filled-meters-water/
"It was the first time that the agency released the extent of flooding in any of the reactor buildings. The flooding situation in the Nos. 1-3 reactor buildings is not known, Nishiyama said.<..> Nishiyama also said the basement of the turbine building of the No. 4 reactor also has about a meter of water."
I_P said:A few new photos - debris clean-up operation, T-hawk, robots, salvage in exclusion zone:
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp13/daiichi-photos13.htm"
The company checked the reactor facilities, suspecting water might be leaking from the pool, but cannot confirm water leakage into the bottom structures of the reactor building.
biffvernon said:I think the first picture gives a good view of where the staircase leading to the 'hole' on #4 was.
MadderDoc said:Indeed, Tepco's having the theory, that water may have overflowed from the reactor cavity into the SFP after an explosion damaged the gate certainly implies that Tepco must know the cavity to be water-filled at the time of explosion. The theory seems to be fed by a suspicion that water fed to the SFP now overflows back into the reactor. One cannot have it both ways, I think, unless the same explosion which so very fortunately damaged the gate such that a disastrous fire could be averted, unfortunately also made the reactor leak. Good news/bad news.
Here's a link to Yomiuri's English translation of the original article:
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110428006723.htm
rowmag said:What is not discussed is how this squares with their earlier measurements of the water contamination, which indicated insufficient fuel rod damage to explain hydrogen generation. Could those measurements now be explained by dilution, since the water volume is now effectively much bigger (including the reactor vessel, and possibly the equipment storage pool on the other side if that gate was also damaged) than was being considered before (just the SFP)? Or can you get hydrogen generated before the zircaloy heats up enough to crack?
~kujala~ said:So TEPCO says SFP 4 is not leaking:
If we take the best option and guess that RPV is not leaking either the question remains where has this +500 cm/100 mSv/h of water in the basement come from?
I can think of two possibilities:
1. It's the result of all the sprayed water into the SFP that has missed the target or overflown.
2. Some of it might be tsunami waters coming from outside in.
MadderDoc said:Indeed, Tepco's having the theory, that water may have overflowed from the reactor cavity into the SFP after an explosion damaged the gate certainly implies that Tepco must know the cavity to be water-filled at the time of explosion. The theory seems to be fed by a suspicion that water fed to the SFP now overflows back into the reactor. One cannot have it both ways, I think, unless the same explosion which so very fortunately damaged the gate such that a disastrous fire could be averted, unfortunately also made the reactor leak. Good news/bad news.
Here's a link to Yomiuri's English translation of the original article:
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110428006723.htm
Jorge Stolfi said:It also shows that what appeared to be some Dark Goo streaming down the wall from the terrace is actually a bunch of cables. Some random comments about this old photo, based on the blueprints:
http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/fukushima/povray/blueprint/foto/edited/out/reactor4-S-1-A-e.png
A - Wall sections pushed out by the explosion. Same pattern on the other side of the entrance gallery. (Why only the sections on the far end of the gallery?)
F - Outline of the SFP projected on the south face. The SFP cavity begins about 6.4 meters north of the south façade, and its internal dimensions are ~ 13.2 m E-W, ~10 m N-S. These numbers are my estimates assuming the drawings I have are correctly scaled. One of the drawings gives the total depth of the SFP as 13.020 meters.
elektrownik said:SFP #4 underwater video ! http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110428_1.zip
We can see that upper parts of fuel sets are melted
Jorge Stolfi said:B - Markings left by the external staircase. It seems that the staircase was still there after the earthquake but before the explosion. Where did it go? is it buried under the rubble, or was it removed by workers early on?
elektrownik said:SFP #4 underwater video ! http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110428_1.zip
We can see that upper parts of fuel sets are melted
clancy688 said:Um, sure...? It does look damaged. And half of the racks seem to be empty, which contradicts the "the SFP was overfilled" informations we have.
But I don't think that either of us knows how racks in a SFP look like... I'd like to hear Astronucs or NUCENGs opinion on this. What did TEPCO say?
Image for all who are to lazy to download the vid:
I'll look at the video later. The rack in the center and the one to the left look like they have damaged fuel, but it's so murky. I would guess that the shinier bails (the handles) that are intact may be fresh fuel.clancy688 said:Um, sure...? It does look damaged. And half of the racks seem to be empty, which contradicts the "the SFP was overfilled" informations we have.
But I don't think that either of us knows how racks in a SFP look like... I'd like to hear Astronucs or NUCENGs opinion on this. What did TEPCO say?
Image for all who are to lazy to download the vid:
Ref: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/fukushima_accident_inf129.htmlUnit 2, 3 & 4 ponds are about 12 x 10 metres, with 1240, 1220 and 1590 assemblies capacity respectively (unit 1 is about 12 x 7 m, 900 assemblies). Unit 4 pond contains a total 1331 used assemblies (783 plus full fuel load of 548), giving it a heat load of about 3 MW thermal, according to France's IRSN, which in that case could lead to 115 cubic metres of water boiling off per day, or about one tenth of its volume. Unit 3's pool contains 514 fuel assemblies, unit 1 has 292 and unit 2 has 587, giving it a heat load of 1 MW. There is no MOX fuel in any of the ponds.
clancy688 said:Um, sure...? It does look damaged. And half of the racks seem to be empty, which contradicts the "the SFP was overfilled" informations we have.
jlduh said:<..>
2) seen from the top, and also for scaling purposes, the exact outside dimensions of the R/B 1 to 4 (1 is a little bit smaller maybe)?
I will see if i can try to estimate some rough volume of the basements we are talking about.
razzz said:Hey Jorge Stolfi, you seem to know your building elevations so...if the RPV cap at the join to the vessel leaks and vents, what level or plane would it be projecting or slicing through in relation to Unit 3? Or if you cut the Unit 3 down to the elevation level with the RPV flange (like cap removed), what would it look like on your modeling?
zapperzero said:Next to that middle rack, there is a "free-standing" bunch of seven bundles, of a different design (or maybe just in a different stage of meltdown). These are interesting as well, because they seem to be out of alignment with each other, suggesting that something has picked them up and set them back down none too carefully. The explosion, maybe?
zapperzero said:Is this Cherenkov light, or just heat?
AntonL said:This does not tie up with the published capacity = 1425 m3 http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110406-1-1.pdf"
why put fresh fuel into SPF anyway? Fresh fuel is much more reactive, and requires more boron...Astronuc said:I'll look at the video later. The rack in the center and the one to the left look like they have damaged fuel, but it's so murky. I would guess that the shinier bails (the handles) that are intact may be fresh fuel.
Unfortunately, the camera is not close enough to see the details of the upper tie plates, and the water is still relatively murky. It would be nice to have a map of the SFP racks so we know at what we're looking.
As far as I know, SFP had 1331 assemblies, so they still had room (see below - Unit 4 SFP capacity = 1590 assys). That was supposed to be a temporary situation since after the repair they would have put 548 assemblies back in the core.
Ref: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/fukushima_accident_inf129.html
In Unit 4, 204 assemblies were fresh fuel, so there is not heat from those. I'm not sure how IRSN estimated the heat load. They may have been somewhat conservative.
I understand that TEPCO was behind on getting spent fuel out of the common pool and into dry cask storage, and therefore were behind in getting fuel out of the SFPs, primarily from Unit 4.
elektrownik said:cant confirm but can't deny also... so who know, I don't believe in miracles, if they were injecting 70t per day and it was ok so why they chang it to 200t per day now ? Tsunami water shouldn't enter reactor building, it should be sealed, also I don't think that so much water missing SFP during injection, also water is radioactive so it can't be from tsunami
Astronuc said:I'll look at the video later. The rack in the center and the one to the left look like they have damaged fuel, but it's so murky. I would guess that the shinier bails (the handles) that are intact may be fresh fuel.
Those are control rods, are they not?
zapperzero said:A video dated April 22 with images from the emergency centre and from the reactor grounds:
Via http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/"
jlduh said:Now the tsunami water cannot explain a rise in the last weeks from a level of 80cm to a level of 5m of course (if measured at the same spot, which we don't know about).
Varon said:I wonder why CNN no longer reports about the nuclear plants.. guess it's no longer serious and problems almost solved. (?)
Jorge Stolfi said:[PLAIN]http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/fukushima/povray/blueprint/foto/edited/out/reactor4-S-1-A-i.png
(A larger version is http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/fukushima/povray/blueprint/foto/edited/out/reactor4-S-1-A-e.png
<..>
B - Markings left by the external staircase. It seems that the staircase was still there after the earthquake but before the explosion. Where did it go? is it buried under the rubble, or was it removed by workers early on?
H - apparently, the original location of the Mysterious Green Box, that seems to have disappeared after the earthquake, uncovering the Door With Mickey Mouse Ears.
I - A huge grenish "closet", flush against that wall. The dark bands above it, leading to the terrace, are bundles of cables or pipes. Is that the Mysterious Green Box? Too big for that?
etudiant said:Is that steam a carrier for significant radioactive contaminants or is it pretty clean?
rowmag said:Those are control rods, are they not?
NHK news tonight pointed out some debris that can be seen on top of the fuel assemblies in this video (right of, and down from, center of zapperzero's image), but didn't point out anything else as being of interest. (Not sure they have had an expert look at it yet, though.)
zapperzero said:Common sense would suggest that it is not clean, but rather laden with whatever can be dissolved from the fuel rods or "steam-cleaned" off the inner walls (mainly Cesium which is an alkali, but also other things like Technetium, even Uranium directly from the rods).
Here is another view into a SFP: http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/3964225685/possible-source-of-leaks-at-spent-fuel-pools-atMadderDoc said:For comparison purposes, here's a photo looking into the SFP of unit 3 during its refueling in 2010. It appears to have been taken in a place in the pool roughly equivalent to where the the imagery from SFP4 was taken (I believe close to the FPM)
http://gyldengrisgaard.dk/daiichigrab/unit3/f1-26.JPG