Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[clif]

I have a question;

Is the item seen in the photo of #4, second level down, fourth row from left, the top of the reactor vessel?

I know the caps have been removed, so this would be the top of the reactor vessel itself?

An aerial view of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station taken by the Air Photo Service, March 24, 2011.

If that is correct, would the location the steam under the roof lattice is rising from on March 14 after the explosion of #3 be the location of the reactor vessel ?

An aerial view taken from a helicopter shows damage sustained to the No. 3 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power complex, March 16, 2011.

I know the brighter steam cloud to the right in the pic is from the SFP in #3

I know they are different buildings, but same basic design, so the location of the reactor vessel would be the same.

The satellite view from March 14 shows two separate distinct steam clouds rising from #3;

The No.3 nuclear reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is seen burning after a blast, March 14, 2011.

All images from here;

http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTR2KAAL#a=26"

 

[cphoenix]

hmm mmm but won't hot water rise up to surface? convection stirring. I don't know how well the rods would prevent convection, especially that they have re-racked it for higher capacity...

Good question... now add an earthquake that might knock a flat sheet of material into the pool, on top of the cooling racks. That might cut down on convection quite a lot.

Suppose a single 1x2 m sheet of material, keeping the water stagnant in about 4 vertical meters of pool, near the bottom. That's 8 m^3 of water at about 22 C over boiling. That's about 700 MJ or about 0.17 ton of TNT.

If you want to try this at home, get a small drinking glass. Put in a few cm of water and a few cm of cooking oil. Heat it in the microwave. Nothing happens until BURP and you're cleaning oil off the roof of the microwave and there's not much liquid left in the glass. (Warning - this might blow the door open, scald you, and/or damage the microwave.)

The energy stored scales as the 4th power of the dimension. A few cm vs. a few meters implies a million times the energy of the microwave demonstration.

Chris

 

[Rive]

Indeed , they have much better helicopter footage , like :



or

Both footage are with recorders, and the first one has all the fingerprints of some postprocess techs (try VirtualDub and Deshake filter on the second footage if you want to see something similar).

What we have from the drones are the low bandwidth radio transmits (provided for the remote operator). IMHO.

 

[|Fred]

does anyone has a link to the video footage ,source of this picture?
http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/...04-15T130609Z_15_GM1E74F1KHK01_RTRRPP_0_JAPAN

 

[Rive]

What we have from the drones are the low bandwidth radio transmits (provided for the remote operator). IMHO.

 

[MadderDoc]

does anyone has a link to the video footage ,source of this picture?
http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/...04-15T130609Z_15_GM1E74F1KHK01_RTRRPP_0_JAPAN

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/index-e.html

Edit, sorry no, it is not there. Tepco's caption says 'A picture taken from the concrete pumping vehicle, the spent fuel pool, Unit3'.

 

[MadderDoc]

Ah, so there is the carrying bridge of the unit 3 FHM. As a tooth-picker stuck in a hollow tooth.

 

[jmelson]

Yep. I'm very surprised though that there was no word from explosion experts about the video. No estimates of energy, in traditional TNT equivalent.
I'm still looking for chimney height as quoted from official source. It seems clear to me that the explosion in #3 could not possibly have been a hydrogen explosion

I'm with you on this, Dmytry, I have always thought the energy in that explosion was way too much for hydrogen.

I swear I read somewhere on this forum that the vent towers were 130 or 135 m tall.

Jon

 

[jmelson]

edit: also, acetylene and other hydrocarbons leave soot.

Oh, YEAH, an acetylene fire or explosion would probably create an absolutely immense ball of soot and smoke, to judge what you get when you start up a torch before you get the Oxygen set right.

Jon

 

[Giordano]

http://www.mext.go.jp/component/english/__icsFiles/afieldfile/2011/04/17/1304193_0416.pdf

New nuclide analysis of sea water. Record high levels of I-131 and Cs-137 30 km from Daiichi.

 

[jmelson]

I noticed that right away. Not only lack of the blast, but also dirt flying sideways quick in #1
And all around #3 looking much slower.
To me it looks like a best example of difference between hydrogen+air explosion vs venting of huge volume of hydrogen and steam. I did CG fluid work, its actually sort of my area of expertise. Reactor stuff, they report pressure not to be zero, i dunno, maybe the lid can be lifted off and then come back down, or maybe gauges failed.

Yup, with #1 the shock wave is clearly visible (much better on network video than mpg conversions), and would make more sense with a hydrogen explosion vs. a steam explosion at #3.

And, #1 was more clearly a horizontal blast vs. a vertical one at #3.

Jon

 

[jmelson]

And pict32 is a very interesting photo of FHM 4. The FHM has been "de-masted". Perhaps pretty strong evidence something violent happened within the confines of the SFP?

Yes, either something happened in the pool, or the FHM was moved suddenly and the mast broke off. I think that is pretty certain. It is conceivable if the FHM gantry doesn't have power-off brakes that the earthquake could have gotten it moving enough to cause the mast to hit a wall of the pool or other obstruction. But, something busted that mast off pretty sharply, and it probably is not all that fragile a component.

Jon

 

[bytepirate]

A staggering amount of energy might be stored in pressurized water in spent fuel pools...

(Unless I've made a stupid arithmetic mistake. Someone please check my numbers and arithmetic - is this even plausible?)

Water at the bottom of a pool (40 ft?) is under about 2.2 atm of pressure, so would boil at about 125 C.

The heat capacity of water is 4 J / g C. So 25 C is 100 J/g. I'm assuming this is proportional to depth, so divide by 2 to compute the energy stored in a pool...

Google says that a spent fuel pool has about 1E4 tons of water. That's 1E4 Mg (1E10 g). So if the pool were poorly stirred and heated just right (so it was just below boiling at all depths), then it might have 5E11 J.

That's about 1/10 of a kiloton.

If a pool were in that condition, and then were shaken, the water might flash into steam very quickly. At 2260 J/g, 5E11 J could vaporize about 200 Mg (tons) of water. At ~600 g/m^3 density for steam at 1 bar, that would be about 300,000 cubic meters, or a 70-meter cube.

I'm sure the whole pool was not in this condition. But you could take away a couple of orders of magnitude and still have a very nasty explosion.

but where is the triggering quake?
http://neic.usgs.gov/cgi-bin/epic/e...AT=0.0&CLON=0.0&CRAD=0.0&SUBMIT=Submit+Search

unit 3 explosion: 14th at 02:01 am (UTC)
unit 4 explosion: 14th at 21:00 pm (UTC)

 

[jmelson]

Well, in special effects, the #1 would of required a dynamite stick, movies wouldn't even do that, too dangerous. #3, a very small charge inside condom with fuel.

One stick of dynamite would barely break windows in those large buildings. And, #3 was a lot more energy than that.

Jon

 

[MadderDoc]

Oh, YEAH, an acetylene fire or explosion would probably create an absolutely immense ball of soot and smoke, to judge what you get when you start up a torch before you get the Oxygen set right.

Jon

Curiously, there appears to be black smoke and soot evolving at the seaside of unit 4 on one of the most recent Tepco handouts. Right in the middle of the photo. But of course it doesn't necessarily have to be acetylen burning.
[URL]http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110415_1f_3_7.jpg[/URL]

 

[HowlerMonkey]

If any acetlyene went up, it is safe to assume that the oxidizer sitting in the bottle next to it went up as well...most likely first because of the much higher working pressure of the tank making it subject to exploding from overpressure due to heat.

The oxygen cylinder is 2200psi and the acetlyene cylinder is 250psi.

A hot interior of a van has been known to cause an oxygen cylinder to overpressure and rupture.

It is more likely that heat caused an oxygen bottle to rupture which in turn released sharpnel that would ventilate the acetelyene bottle.

Due to the fact that there is a much larger percentage of oxidizer (also...pure oxygen rather than air) than stoich, there would be very little, if any soot because the combustion would be complete.

Another phenomenon is that most anything will burn with extreme vigor when in a very high concentration of oxygen environment...verging on an explosion.

 

[jmelson]

If any acetlyene went up, it is safe to assume that the oxidizer sitting in the bottle next to it went up as well...most likely first because of the much higher working pressure of the tank making it subject to exploding from overpressure due to heat.

The oxygen cylinder is 2200psi and the acetlyene cylinder is 250psi.

A hot interior of a van has been known to cause an oxygen cylinder to overpressure and rupture.

It is more likely that heat caused an oxygen bottle to rupture which in turn released sharpnel that would ventilate the acetelyene bottle.

Due to the fact that there is a much larger percentage of oxidizer (also...pure oxygen rather than air) than stoich, there would be very little, if any soot because the combustion would be complete.

Another phenomenon is that most anything will burn with extreme vigor when in a very high concentration of oxygen environment...verging on an explosion.

OK, then a stoichiometric or oxygen-rich acetylene fire will release an absolutely IMMENSE white flash, I mean almost nuclear detonation-class flash that would be seen for miles.

But, an acetylene cylinder that is punctured will not generally release acetylene very quickly, it takes a while to fizz out of the acetone/filler mix. The tanks are filled with a clay-like filler, and then saturated with acetone, then the acetylene is dissolved in that sort of like CO2 in soda.

Jon

 

[shogun338]

Curiously, there appears to be black smoke and soot evolving at the seaside of unit 4 on one of the most recent Tepco handouts. Right in the middle of the photo. But of course it doesn't necessarily have to be acetylen burning.
[URL]http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110415_1f_3_7.jpg

[/URL]
I think its just a shadow of the pipe on the right . T - Hawk video of Unit 4 , 4-15-11

 

[etudiant]

Best footage yet, from the T Hawk drone:

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/04/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-latest-photos-by.html

An expert analysis of these shots should tell a lot about the specific damage at each reactor .

 

[shogun338]

New T-Hawk video from 4-15-11 . Some closer shots of Unit 1 and Unit 3 . Video quality looks a little better .

 

[shogun338]

T- Hawk video from 4-15-11 shows a closeup of the gray mass in Unit 4 around 2.48 and it appears to be rubber roof sheathing or something similar .

 

[shogun338]

RADIATION levels around Japan’s stricken nuclear plant soared after another earthquake jolted the *country yesterday.

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...her-earthquake-115875-23066249/#ixzz1JkYl16i3

 

[MadderDoc]

New T-Hawk video from 4-15-11 . Some closer shots of Unit 1 and Unit 3 . Video quality looks a little better .

Yes, and thank you so much for making those HQ videos available.

About unit 3, perhaps Tepco should now come out with a some straight words about what exactly has happened to it. By now they must have a pretty clear picture.

 

[Joe Neubarth]

RADIATION levels around Japan’s stricken nuclear plant soared after another earthquake jolted the *country yesterday.

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...her-earthquake-115875-23066249/#ixzz1JkYl16i3

Well Shogun, just like we do not have the actual explanation as to why the Earth's molten core causes our magnetic field that helps shield the Earth from solar/cosmic radiation, do we absolutely know what is happening in those reactors when the Earth shakes and the radiation levels soar.

Are we seeing limited Earth shaken fission; or, do the gamma rays wait for a good shake before being born?

 

[shogun338]

All videos of Unit 3 have shown steam or smoke at times escaping from reactor location . This shows that outer containment of RPV has been breached at least . I think this had a lot to do with the huge explosion we all seen at Unit 3 . Unit 3 is also the one loaded with the MOX fuel . This may have something to do with what is seen at Unit 3. NO one wants MOX fuel . ---The U.S. Department of Energy wants to redesign its partially built mixed oxide fuel plant to make nuclear fuel for a wider variety of reactors.
The facility under construction at Savannah River Site is designed to make fuel rods for pressurized water reactors in use at many commercial power plants. http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/metro/2011-04-15/officials-review-plan-changes-mox-facility

 

[shogun338]

Well Shogun, just like we do not have the actual explanation as to why the Earth's molten core causes our magnetic field that helps shield the Earth from solar/cosmic radiation, do we absolutely know what is happening in those reactors when the Earth shakes and the radiation levels soar.

Are we seeing limited Earth shaken fission; or, do the gamma rays wait for a good shake before being born?

I think there just worried it has caused a new leak .-- But the government said Saturday that levels of radioactive materials in the seawater have risen again in recent days. The level of radioactive iodine 131 jumped to 6,500 times the legal limit, according to samples taken Friday, up from 1,100 times the limit in samples taken the day before. Levels of cesium 134 and cesium 137 rose nearly fourfold. The increased levels are still far below those recorded earlier this month before the initial leak was plugged.

The government said the new rise in radioactivity could have been caused by the installation on Friday of steel panels intended to contain radioactive materials. The construction may have temporarily stirred up stagnant waste in the area, Hidehiko Nishiyama, the deputy director general of Japan’s nuclear regulator, the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, told reporters. However, the increase in iodine 131, which has an eight-day half life, could signal the possibility of a new leak, he said. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/world/asia/17nuke.html?src=mv

 

[I_P]

Kyodo is reporting that two robotic units with temp, radiation, and 02 sensors (and cameras?) will enter unit 3 today to see if it is safe for workers to enter and begin stabilization measures. If successful they will try the same in units 1 and 2.

 

[HowlerMonkey]

OK, then a stoichiometric or oxygen-rich acetylene fire will release an absolutely IMMENSE white flash, I mean almost nuclear detonation-class flash that would be seen for miles.

But, an acetylene cylinder that is punctured will not generally release acetylene very quickly, it takes a while to fizz out of the acetone/filler mix. The tanks are filled with a clay-like filler, and then saturated with acetone, then the acetylene is dissolved in that sort of like CO2 in soda.

Jon

I'm still not sure any of that happened.

I just tried to explain a theory put forth earlier in the thread though an acetlyene cylinder can be persuaded to release all of it's fuel by an explosion of a much thicker higher pressurized oxygen cylinder exploding beside it...since they are usually chained together.

After being involved with lexus and seeing the factory, I believe that the average skilled laborer in japan is unbelievably responsible and many mistakes put foward are mostly impossible except for the possibility that they could have been "caught out" by the tsunami event and unable to secure everything properly.

If any mistakes are being made, it is with management and not the guys doing the actual work.

 

[|Fred]

Thank you for the link to the video , I should have looked at tepco's..
too bad the most interesting bit it not there..
still we learn a few interesting points:

-blast on unit 4 does not seems to originate side ways on a low level of the SFP as we can see the concrete wall of the pool on the est wall are pristine while wall are blasted. (that's an other confirmation of what we assume)

- there is an other canal opening linking operating floor to bellow on the south east more or less rectangular 1/2 the with of the assumed cast canal.

- there is an other green fuel small handling crane above the utility pool (this confirm the hypothetical assessment I made 17 days ago (click link bellow to see the picture)

caption contest :(
Crane Crane, reactor open lid ?What's the crane on the right (north) doing there ?

This may also contribute to infirm the Ballistic FHM

 

[cphoenix]

I had written: "If a pool were in that condition, and then were shaken, the water might flash into steam very quickly. At 2260 J/g, 5E11 J could vaporize about 200 Mg (tons) of water. At ~600 g/m^3 density for steam at 1 bar, that would be about 300,000 cubic meters, or a 70-meter cube.

but where is the triggering quake?
http://neic.usgs.gov/cgi-bin/epic/e...AT=0.0&CLON=0.0&CRAD=0.0&SUBMIT=Submit+Search

I shouldn't have said "shaken." I should have said "disturbed." It would not require an earthquake. At some point, with continuous heating, the water would get hot enough to bubble under 2 atm of pressure, and then the pool would disturb itself. (Not very hot - ~125 C.)

Significant bubble formation would cause a reduction in pressure, which would allow more water to flash to steam, creating more bubbles... the process would run away, just like those CO2-loaded lakes that occasionally invert their water layers and emit massive amounts of CO2. But with many pounds of TNT-equivalent per cubic meter of superheated water, the process could be quite violent.

In a follow-on post, I had suggested that convection could be reduced enough to create this effect by an earthquake knocking a flat piece of material into the pool so that it covered the top of a fueling rack. This would not trigger the explosion; it would create the conditions for the heating to start. Sometime later, the explosion would trigger itself.