Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[maddog1964]

TRIUMPH61
Can you post origin of the Number 3 Damage picture

 

[jim hardy]

Thanks Tcup and Mad.. for the frame-by-frame and helpful feedback about explosions.

i could not come up with a scenario for criticality in fuel pool. And Arnie's prompt doesn't make sense, you got to progress through delayed to reach prompt..
Do you know whether their pool uses boron steel or that boron aluminum or Boraflex plastic, or just old fashioned geometry that doesn't need boron?

I have to think IF there was any neutron help for unit 3's self disassembly it had to come from inside the vessel. So i am awaiting a photo to see whether containment and pressure vessel lids are still in place.

I want it to be a hydrogen explosion, not a steam explosion from criticality. The near horizontal orange flame worried me - thought it was a sodium flame squeezing out from under the lid of containment.

But your video of a hydrogen balloon had same orange flash.thanks again -

old jim himself

 

[Borek]

As I understand that piece of news, the "milestone" they are talking about is "just repaired cooling", indeed. Which means it was damaged before.

I have confirmed with other Mentors - you misunderstood the Reuters news:

the way I read the sentence, the cooling systems were repaired, and then after that for several weeks were maintained in cold shutdown state.

Next time please check your sources and your understanding of the text twice before accusing anyone of lying.

 

[elektrownik]

Maybe the crack in #3 RPV (and drywell) is bigger than it was ? This could be reason why temperature jump in last few days from ~100 to ~200C, and now they injecting 50% more water...

 

[triumph61]

What is this? Its in front of Unit 3.
At this Point there is high Radiation.

 

[Rive]

I see an empty pool if the answer is still interesting.

Sorry, that's my mistake: the picture is so throughly 'enhanced' and 'focused' that out of context it has no depth-sense.

The pool is definately NOT empty, it can be checked on other videos which has some view angles.

 

[elektrownik]

What is this? Its in front of Unit 3.
At this Point there is high Radiation.

Some people think that this is yellow reactor cap... or part of it...

 

[triumph61]

Inside NP Austria Zwetendorf
http://www.zwentendorf.com/Tour_AkwZwentendorf/tour_AKW_Zwentendorf.html

 

[zapperzero]

I have confirmed with other Mentors - you misunderstood the Reuters news:
Next time please check your sources and your understanding of the text twice before accusing anyone of lying.

I assure you in the future I will refrain from publishing such interpretations here. In fact, I will try to restrict myself to posting information.

I must point out in my defense that I have no way to check any of the data (press releases included). All I have is the published news, my own knowledge and the opinions of people here. From these, I form an opinion of my own which I then present, hoping that others may have more information that would either contradict my opinion or reinforce it. I believe many others here are in the same position - unable to independently verify any of the published data and events.

You are telling me I misunderstood, based on conversations you had with other mentors. Can you please share the additional information you gleaned from these conversations?

 

[jim hardy]

this sort of looks like the #3 refueling crane.. captured by that helicopter so resolution isn't that good. just below center...

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp9/pict26.jpg

definite maybe?

"Some people think that this is yellow reactor cap... or part of it... "

i down loaded that photo from Cryptome, looking for its location now to post link.
Zooming in via windows photoviewer it could pass for yellow and round and size looks not too far off -- zoom back out and compare to firetruck.
Hole in wall doesn't look big enough for it to have come through to me. but I'm a complete amateur at handling pictures .

old jim

 

[Rive]

What is this? Its in front of Unit 3.
At this Point there is high Radiation.

IMHO the yellow thing is the glasswool insulation of the building roof.
It's expected to find more hi-rad concrete pieces around line between the reactor and the first one. Maybe there'll be the next.

There is that 'tour' video, linked previously: this part of U3 is recorded in good quality. And thet other video when the firetruck is spraying U3 is also might be useful.

this sort of looks like the #3 refueling crane.. captured by that helicopter so resolution isn't that good. just below center...

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp9/pict26.jpg

IMHO it's some internal catwalk of U3, preserved in surprisingly good condition. The FHM is much more massive piece of metal.

Ps.: Can somebody please confirm, that this video is about U4?

 

[|Fred]

I must point out in my defense that I have no way to check any of the data (press releases included).?

In an ideal world one should not have to fact checking on press article.. In the real world one should If he really cares.. :(
Earlier I provided link to the two PR the Reuters paper was summing up. Although I did not share your understanding of the Reuters paper, I can see how it could have been misleading.

 

[triumph61]

IMHO the yellow thing is the glasswool insulation of the building roof.
It's expected to find more hi-rad concrete pieces around line between the reactor and the first one. Maybe there'll be the next.

There is that 'tour' video, linked previously: this part of U3 is recorded in good quality. And thet other video when the firetruck is spraying U3 is also might be useful.


IMHO it's some internal catwalk of U3, preserved in surprisingly good condition. The FHM is much more massive piece of metal.

Ps.: Can somebody please confirm, that this video is about U4?

Glasswool? Its a heavy Glaswool...
In the tour Video, this Place is not seen.

 

[Borek]

You are telling me I misunderstood, based on conversations you had with other mentors. Can you please share the additional information you gleaned from these conversations?

There is no additional information, not being a native speaker I just asked how to understand the Reuters news piece. I was told my understanding on the text is correct and text doesn't imply cooling systems have been not repaired on March 15th.

 

[Caniche]

Have you all seen the live cam?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck_KEILBLlU&feature=player_embedded

Looks like fires breaking out in #3 and #4.

Strangely unavailable now?

 

[zapperzero]

Article about the first few days of the crisis:

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110505n1.html

Here's the thing I don't remember having seen stated before:
"Twice, radiation levels at the plant reached 1 sievert an hour. "

Sorry if this is old info. I have read the whole thread, but it has been a while since.

 

[Borek]

Strangely unavailable now?

Works for me.

 

[Bandit127]

Following on from a previous post about valid data (OK - possibly a rant) in which I asked us to spare a thought for the TEPCO Engineers that are trying to make good decisions based on woefully indaequate data.

Here is an update from TEPCO detailing the improvements they will be making for the Technicians and other front line staff.

It is comforting to know that (in the worst case) they will be getting showers by June.

I have regularly worked in a Tyvek 'lab coat' (not a full overall) in a cleanroom environment on machinery that runs at 200 Bar, 500 kN and 250°C - i.e. fairly heavy and hot work - and I know what that 'micro climate' feels like and it is not pleasant.

Boy, would I be looking forward to a shower in June...

After the accident on March 11th, we have been making every effort to
restore the status of the nuclear power stations, and we believe that
improving the living environment and productivity of the workers will lead
to earlier restoration of the condition.
Therefore, we will construct some prefabricated temporary dorms, where
workers will be entering one after another from late June, and organize an
environment so that workers can concentrate on their work.
In addition, until then, the following improvements will be carried out at
the current resident facilities.

1.Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station
Due to the high radiation dose around the Main Anti-Earthquake Building,
meals are mainly limited to preservation food. Therefore, from early May,
two meals (lunch and dinner) out of three meals everyday will be served
from Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station Gymnasium as a lunch box
(bento).
Further, this gymnasium will be equipped with double-deck beds before
mid May, with availability of shower.

2.Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station
In regard with the living environment at the administration office,
showers will be newly installed by the end of May, and increase the use.
In regard of meals, bread (in the morning), bento (at lunch and dinner)
is already being served from May 1st.

3.Others
Also at J-Village where people and supplies are relayed, bento will be
served for two meals (lunch and dinner) out of three meals everyday. In
addition, showers will be made partly available by the late May, and
more showers and toilets will be made available by the end of June.

From:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11050409-e.html"

Spare a thought for these people.

 

[MiceAndMen]

Here a summary after 7 weeks: http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/5173479472/fukushima-7-week-update

Here a translation of the Plant Tour Video: http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/5_3_vid.html

Nancy Foust can be incredibly dumb at times. At this page
http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/5_3info.html
she's referencing the Physics Forums and a couple of posts in this thread specifically. She then completely fails to to understand this article at CNBC
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42100529/Reactor_Design_in_Japan_Has_Long_Been_Questioned
which refers to fears that the torus could jump off the floor during a steam release. Nancy thinks it has something to do with the RPV and lateral forces. She uses all that to arrive at some sort of conclusion which she is unable to even articulate.

Be very, very careful of anything on that site other than the pretty pictures.

 

[Borek]

Nancy Foust can be incredibly dumb at times. At this page
http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/5_3info.html
she's referencing the Physics Forums and a couple of posts in this thread specifically. She then completely fails to to understand this article at CNBC
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42100529/Reactor_Design_in_Japan_Has_Long_Been_Questioned
which refers to fears that the torus could jump off the floor during a steam release. Nancy thinks it has something to do with the RPV and lateral forces. She uses all that to arrive at some sort of conclusion which she is unable to even articulate.

At least now she already knows she was wrong.

 

[MiceAndMen]

Some people think that this is yellow reactor cap... or part of it...

The circled thing on that photo looks like a piece of steel framework. The primary containment vessel cap is yellow, but not the reactor cap. Whatever is circled on that photo is neither round nor yellow.

Who are "some people"?

Is it just me or has the level of baseless speculation reached new heights here over the last week?

 

[jlduh]

The water is mainly concentrated from the tsunami that has leaked into the plant and then got contaminated

http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/5_3_vid.html

SO this is a new confirmation (I mentionned it already from sources cited in an other article) that part of the water in the basement is from tsunami, then got contaminated by leaks from reactors.

 

[MiceAndMen]

At least now she already knows she was wrong.

Hah! I think she doesn't care. She obviously reads this thread but is unwilling to join in the discussions for some reason.

 

[jlduh]

Inside NP Austria Zwetendorf
http://www.zwentendorf.com/Tour_AkwZwentendorf/tour_AKW_Zwentendorf.html

Just in case people would wonder how this tour is possible in this BWR 730 MegaWatts nuclear power plant, just read the history around this plant which is unique in the world: "The Zwentendorf Nuclear Reactor is the safest atomic power plant in the world – simply because it never went into operation."!

http://www.nuclear-power-plant.net/index.php?lang=en&item=history
http://www.nuclear-power-plant.net/index.php?lang=en&item=facts

 

[Caniche]

Here a summary after 7 weeks: http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/5173479472/fukushima-7-week-update

Here a translation of the Plant Tour Video: http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/5_3_vid.html

Works for me.

Available again . no.'s 3 +4 show utter carnage not much chance of any functional infrastructure remaining,no. 2 looks worse though ,that is big emission volumes ,somethings cooking?

 

[imandylite]

http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/5_3_vid.html

SO this is a new confirmation (I mentionned it already from sources cited in an other article) that part of the water in the basement is from tsunami, then got contaminated by leaks from reactors.

This was revealed a few weeks ago in one of the TEPCO and Jap Government press meetings. It was an answer to a question on process for the low contamination of large volumes of water.

The answer was that small amounts of highly contaminated water was leaking from earthquake damaged primary pipes and finding its way into tsunami flooded areas.

I have found links to some of these press briefings. But, sorry, didn't bookmark. They do exist and are usually over an hour (sometimes two) in length. The main points of interest are the answers given by representatives to questions asked by invited journalists. The problem I have found is that the journalists seem not to have a scientific or engineering background.

 

[jlduh]

Does somebody has an idea of what Tepco means when they consider the use of these "existing tubes" to try to cool the reactor N°1? Which tubes are these?

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/04_18.html

Tokyo Electric Power Company plans to circulate water in the reactor's containment vessel with the use of tubes that are already in place.

The water will be sent to a heat exchanger that will be installed near one of the reactor building's entrances.

Then the water will be pumped through a cooling tower outside the building before being returned to the containment vessel via the tubes.
[...]

The company says the system is expected to circulate about 100 tons of water per hour to cool down an estimated 1,500 kilowatts of heat radiating from fuel rods in the reactor.

It says once the new system is put into operation, it should lower the temperature of the fuel in the reactor to below 100 degrees Celsius within a few hours to a few days.

 

[Dmytry]

Boy, would I be looking forward to a shower in June... From:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11050409-e.html"

Spare a thought for these people.

Ohh my god. radioactive contamination and no showers. Guys, this is officially far, far more messed up than Chernobyl. This is just terrible.
(It is hard to imagine how terrible it is, though, and easy to understate)

 

[zapperzero]

Ohh my god. radioactive contamination and no showers. Guys, this is officially far, far more messed up than Chernobyl. This is just terrible.
(It is hard to imagine how terrible it is, though, and easy to understate)

I promised to refrain from speculation so, just facts. Among past posts in this thread you will find some linking to pictures of the Dai-ichi emergency centre. The people there are sleeping/resting/eating while dressed in their tyvek suits.

 

[zapperzero]

Does somebody has an idea of what Tepco means when they consider the use of these "existing tubes" to try to cool the reactor N°1? Which tubes are these?

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/04_18.html

Making new holes in the RPV to install piping would be difficult.