Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[unlurk]

Ask anybody that bends metal for a living.

Defending your hypothesis with a logical fallacy (false appeal to authority) is not likely to win you any new adherents.


I think you are underestimating the force of the (vectored) blast emanating from the SFP.

For a few milliseconds it was at least as hard as steel. And it surely had sharp contours that close to the "muzzle of the gun."

 

[RealWing]

We have badly underestimated the potential hazards emanating from spent fuel ponds.

Were it not for Spent Fuel Pond accidents, the loss of coolant event at Fukushima would not be anywhere near the serious situation that currently exists.

I agree that the industry has generally been underestimating the hazards from spent fuel pools, although at least the US appears to have taken some action to ensure means are readily available to add water. You can be sure that there will be industry wide changes to spent fuel pools and emergency cooling etc. The addition of simple spray headers above the pools has been discussed.

However, none of this matters if plants are not adequately designed for Beyond Design Basis Events (BDBE). All of this destruction and pool overheating was caused by all emergency power being lost to the units by a BDB tsunami event that flooded the emergency generators and switchgear that was located in the lower floor of the non-watertight turbine building.
The provision of readily available "ultimate" emergency power equipment will be the most significant change for the industry. One simply cannot tolerate (or afford) having no power to cool a nuclear reactor.

The industry is responding behind the scenes all around the world and addressing current emergency readiness and addressing the initial lessons-learned from Dai-ichi. Many more lessons-learned to come - just like what happened after TMI and Chernobyl.

 

[StrangeBeauty]

...These pictures are taken from far away with TV-cameras. You can definitely say a few things when looking at these pictures; such as: the buildings are still there. The buildings are damaged.
But you're unable to tell if they're leaning. That's like having measurements that are off several magnitudes from the result of a calculation based on these measurements.

It's hard to tell if a building is leaning just by pictures without any reference. And what you're looking at are stitched pictures from a tv-cam, miles away.

As far as the "leaning #4" I remain unconvinced that anything has changed there for a number of weeks and still await recent pictures from a different vantage point with different optics. Recently we had pictures kindly reposted on flickr which, via barrel distortion of the wide angle lens, some people thought made #4 appear to lean. However it should be noted that it appears to lean in the opposite direction of the TV cam pics. Here's the pic:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xtcbz/5705363817/sizes/o/in/set-72157626687253144/

Compare the entrance tunnel distortion in that pic to this the entrance tunnel in this pic:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xtcbz/5705366069/sizes/o/in/set-72157626687253144/

First one looks angled left, the second one looks nice and straight.

Side note: not even going to get into debunking ihatelies wild jumping to unfounded conclusions... You all are nicer than I ;) I was just going to go with "cool story bro"

 

[unlurk]

it's dangerous to move fresh spent fuel.

I'll agree that for some weeks or months a new load is best left to cool and allow the short lived nucleotides to dissipate.

Even then it should be kept in borated water , or have some other means of killing reactivity.


But two loads should never exist in one SFP after this wake up call!

 

[StrangeBeauty]

I agree that the industry has generally been underestimating the hazards from spent fuel pools, although at least the US appears to have taken some action to ensure means are readily available to add water.

This discussion probably deserves a diff thread, but with the recent record tornado outbreak in the US with many EF-4 and EF-5 tornadoes, not that far from BWRs, and in the spirit of "thinking the unthinkable", how would the reactor infrastructure handle this sort of amazing stress of 200+ mph winds? Are the buildings and supporting facilities built to such high standards to withstand that? (Just wondering in a general way)

 

[ihatelies]

Except if its exit from the building caused the roof damage that you are obsessed with, in which case the FHM really should be of relevance to you.

The "roof damage" is a round hole, which sat nearly right over the Reactor core, and several here have seen it. I've attached the photo highlighting it again.

If you cannot see it, as you claim, you cannot have a clue what I'm talking about, therefore you cannot argue against it.

If you have seen it and claim you haven't, then that tells me another story.

I do not believe it could have been the FHM that created that hole. The FHM could have taken out the entire south wall, but I don't think it went through that hole.

Edit: apparently site won't let me upload the pic again. must have to look back to the other one sorry

 

[TCups]

LoL, I think you are great, I don't want to be dismissive of you (or Fred), just a few facets of your fetishes.Does this mean that you will re-consider the possibility of a criticality in the #3 SFP?

Yes. . .

Or at least put to bed forever the superheated water theory?
(That one is a bit over the top for me)

No. . .

Macht nichts anyway. It is the end-game now, so it doesn't matter how or why things happened the way they did. It's enough to say, in summary, that some sort of explosions happened at Units 1-4, played havoc with the guttyworks of the NPP and peppered a bunch of radioactive junk near and far, occurring after the mechanical damage from the quake and admixed with a bunch of flotsam and jetsam stirred up by the tsunami. So, now the Japanese folks will just have to sort it all out and deal with it. Enough of all the mental pud fanning!

Keep me posted if Bldg 4 falls over or something important and entertaining happens (complete with video), because it's nap time for us old guys. Cheers. :zzz:

 

[pdObq]

These pictures are taken from far away with TV-cameras. You can definitely say a few things when looking at these pictures; such as: the buildings are still there. The buildings are damaged.
But you're unable to tell if they're leaning. That's like having measurements that are off several magnitudes from the result of a calculation based on these measurements.

It's hard to tell if a building is leaning just by pictures without any reference. And what you're looking at are stitched pictures from a tv-cam, miles away.

Well, compared to previous pictures from that camera, one can say more than that the buildings are still standing . As for references take unit 3 and the exhaust tower to the right. See also that post and the its "back quoting chain": https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3295801&postcount=6633 .

We all know that the camera is miles away. Would be interesting to know how far away the camera actually is. Outside of the evacuation zone?

 

[SteveElbows]

The "roof damage" is a round hole, which sat nearly right over the Reactor core, and several here have seen it. I've attached the photo highlighting it again.

If you cannot see it, as you claim, you cannot have a clue what I'm talking about, therefore you cannot argue against it.

If you have seen it and claim you haven't, then that tells me another story.

I do not believe it could have been the FHM that created that hole. The FHM could have taken out the entire south wall, but I don't think it went through that hole.

I couldn't see any links to videos in your previous post, and I can't see any photo attachment to this one.

I can see why you have had a hard time on other forums. You are too personally attached to the theory and thus you take offence when people don't buy it.

If you read what I had said previously about seeing or not seeing holes, I mentioned that I could see multiple candidates for what you are referring to, and was having trouble narrowing it down. The lack of attachment means I still cant.

 

[unlurk]

taken some action to ensure means are readily available to add water.

The problems at Fukushima were not caused by "dry" SFPs.

And I would like the site managers to know that their failure to fix their software so that responses don't get dumped into the bit bucket appears to be related to the slovenly engineering practices they must have picked up in their prior career.

I lost another long post and I'm pissed.

There is no excuse for it, other sites don't have this problem.

 

[unlurk]

it doesn't matter how or why things happened the way they did.

Common TCups, you know better than that.

This is probably the most important subject being discussed here.


We (of the Physics Forum) can do nothing to fix the problem or stabilize the situation.


But we can be the genesis of an intelligent review of the causes of the accident(s) and therefore the starting point for measures to see that the chance of anything like this ever happening again is eliminated.

This thread can be a beginning, not just a rehash of an aftermath.

 

[ihatelies]

I couldn't see any links to videos in your previous post, and I can't see any photo attachment to this one.

I can see why you have had a hard time on other forums. You are too personally attached to the theory and thus you take offence when people don't buy it.

If you read what I had said previously about seeing or not seeing holes, I mentioned that I could see multiple candidates for what you are referring to, and was having trouble narrowing it down. The lack of attachment means I still cant.

Let me try the links again. I screwed up the links the first time.

Here is the picture of the hole:

Here is the link to the video of the junk in the parking lot - again, look at 2:17 to 2:20 or so:



Attached below is a grab of the junk in the parking lot from that video.

 

[unlurk]

We all know that the camera is miles away. Would be interesting to know how far away the camera actually is. Outside of the evacuation zone?

That has been discussed here, some have worked on triangulating to figure out where the camera is.

I forget the details but it seems that the camera is something like 4 - 7 kilometers away in a ssw direction.

Punch 37°22'4.67"N 140°56'39.25"E into Google Earth and you'll be close.

 

[Rive]

But two loads should never exist in one SFP after this wake up call!

They cannot be moved to dry storage before ~ three years. So my point is that they should be kept on the local SFP for three years.

Alternatively maybe some 'wet' transfer method could be developed, but even that is risky. There are too much 'what if' lurking around.

 

[RealWing]

This discussion probably deserves a diff thread, but with the recent record tornado outbreak in the US with many EF-4 and EF-5 tornadoes, not that far from BWRs, and in the spirit of "thinking the unthinkable", how would the reactor infrastructure handle this sort of amazing stress of 200+ mph winds? Are the buildings and supporting facilities built to such high standards to withstand that? (Just wondering in a general way)

The recent tornados in the US were very close to at least one plant. At Surry (VA) on April 16th, the switchyard was badly damaged. Both units tripped and cooled down OK via the 4 Emergency Diesel Generators (EDG's) "Inspection of the 500 kv switchyard revealed substantial damage to bus bars, transformers, and other components. The 230 kv switchyard had less significant damage including cracks on insulator supports."On April 27th, another tornado knocked out power to the 3 units at Browns Ferry (AL). EDG's were used to cool down the units.
In general, nuclear plants are "designed" for tornados - one of the Design Basis Events. Ractor buildings are hardened as are the buildings for the EDG's and fuel supplies etc.. I don't have detail knowledge of the US DBE's to know if they will withstand an EF-5.

 

[GJBRKS]

Ah thanks for that. I was thinking the other picture was looking from E or W, but wasn't sure.

If that is looking north at the DS pit then, the back wall is the structure between the DS pit and reactor cavity. They would not transfer fuel through there, but they would transfer the steam separator and possible steam dryer. The steam leakage then would seem to be coming from containment - possibly the reactor cavity.

This helicopter footage shows 3 sources of steam rising above unit 3 ( at 01:00 minutes) :



I've compared them to another layout of unit 3 to be able to pinpoint the locations :


http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/5710/reactor3overlayed1.jpg

The middle source is clearly separated from the left and right ones

Would that be the same location that you mention ?

 

[etudiant]

Let me try the links again. I screwed up the links the first time.

Here is the picture of the hole:

Here is the link to the video of the junk in the parking lot - again, look at 2:17 to 2:20 or so:



Attached below is a grab of the junk in the parking lot from that video.

Thanks for the photo and the associated notes.
While there is clearly an area of damage that is roughly circular, the surrounding roof beams appear pushed in, not out, at least to my eyes.
That suggests something heavy fell down in that area, rather than that something came up.
The hole below the roof damage is also roughly circular. The initial explosion clearly had a sideways component, this may be one residual damage.

 

[AntonL]

Would be interesting to know how far away the camera actually is. Outside of the evacuation zone?

Punch 37°22'4.67"N 140°56'39.25"E into Google Earth and you'll be close.

@unlurk I beg to differ 37°17'52"N and 140°54'55"E

The camera is the same camera that recorded the explosion video, I worked it out some time ago. Below extract my post #5737 of 4 May

EDIT: That position I have given in post #5737 is wrong, OHL tower and reactor 1 do not line up as we can see in the live video feed, so back to google

[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikXR5A.jPG

The distance is 17km ! this point is 705 metres high http://watchizu.gsi.go.jp/watchizu.html?b=371803&l=1405507

[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/inr1us.JPG
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikT2XW.jpg
In the explosion video you can see the same vertical line below the corner of unit 2,

 

[pdObq]

It has to be big and round because the metal is formed into a perfect arc. There has to be some kind of "die" to form metal into an arc shape, otherwise it bends randomly.

I didn't really want to get into this discussion, but I have to admit, that I also noticed that round shape in the roof structure when I first looked at the pictures. However, I have no firm hypothesis why it's there or if it really means anything.

So, considering your idea, wouldn't you expect the metal structure to be bent outwards if some heavy object ejected from the inside caused it? But on all pictures I have seen it looks more like it is bent inwards, no? I always had the impression it looks more like a large amount of heat at that point caused the steel to deform and bend downwards (Like when one puts a lighter under a sheet of plastic). It might be related to that fireball (which I currently believe to be hydrogen burning in a non-optimal mixture with oxygen) on that side of the building during the explosion.

EDIT: Oh, similar points have been raised in post above while I was writing this.

 

[AntonL]

Thanks for the photo and the associated notes.
While there is clearly an area of damage that is roughly circular, the surrounding roof beams appear pushed in, not out, at least to my eyes.
That suggests something heavy fell down in that area, rather than that something came up.
The hole below the roof damage is also roughly circular. The initial explosion clearly had a sideways component, this may be one residual damage.

Thank god for this explanation, the reactor shot out high into the sky, then fell down right back where it came from, leaving that nice golden circular pattern in the roof girders

ihatelies I hope you are now satisfied with this explanation it suits you and it suits all other members here, it really does not surprise me that you been kicked off another forum as you stated in your very first post today.

I really suggest that this subject can be rested now, what was once a nice and interesting thread with intelligent discussion has today turned into a nonsensical discussion

 

[Rive]

Attached below is a grab of the junk in the parking lot from that video.

Sorry, that piece of junk were there even before U3 or U4 exploded.
http://slow-news-day.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/5521498023_7e811bd1cf_o.jpg

Ps.: ooops, no hotlinking. Try here: http://slow-news-day.net/2011/03/satellite-pictures-of-fukushima-i-nuclear-power-plant-going-critical/

 

[ihatelies]

Thanks for the photo and the associated notes.
While there is clearly an area of damage that is roughly circular, the surrounding roof beams appear pushed in, not out, at least to my eyes.
That suggests something heavy fell down in that area, rather than that something came up.
The hole below the roof damage is also roughly circular. The initial explosion clearly had a sideways component, this may be one residual damage.

Well, that's a new idea that I hadn't thought of - something falling rather than launching. . (maybe we may have a meteor on our hands... uh that's a joke!)

It would take a lot of pressure to bend that metal in that shape - I'm not sure a dropping object could do it, and anything that could would be visible below.

The hole in this view appears to be above the spent fuel hole, but it is not. It is now draped over the wreckage, but at the beginning of the explosion it was intact at the top of the building.

If you look at the wall columns, I've numbered them 1 through 7 starting at the closest one. The hole exists between columns 3 and 4. The roof beam at column 2 is gone.

If the Reactor core is shifted from the centerline of the building to the south it would put it exactly below this hole - between columns 3 and 4. If the reactor core is dead center of the building, I'm likely wrong about something from the reactor creating this hole, because it could only launch vertically (as shown in the video of the explosion) and a vertical launch from that position would hit the X on beam at column 4 dead center and likely would have taken the entire roof off, but wouldn't have created this kind of damage.

 

[biffvernon]

Looks like it's coming in from south or southeast of #4. Could be a nightime marine layer. Having lived on the coast all my life I have seen these come in at dusk and they can lay pretty low to the ground and blow for hours. Prevailing winds at night reverse from inland to offshore due to the temperature drop on land vis a vis the ocean.

I see three quite distinct plumes from far side of #2, from #3 and from #4. 'T'aint natural.

 

[MadderDoc]

Here is the link to the video of the junk in the parking lot - again, look at 2:17 to 2:20 or so:
Attached below is a grab of the junk in the parking lot from that video.

Forget about it, it is not something from unit3. The video taken from a helicopter one hour after the tsunami shows the same junk in that parking lot. (frame attached)

 

[pdObq]

I forget the details but it seems that the camera is something like 4 - 7 kilometers away in a ssw direction. Punch 37°22'4.67"N 140°56'39.25"E into Google Earth and you'll be close.

The camera is the same camera that recorded the explosion video, I worked it out some time ago. Below extract my post #5737 of 4 May [...]. In the explosion video you can see the same vertical line below the corner of unit 2,

Nice, thanks for the prompt info on this.

 

[ihatelies]

I didn't really want to get into this discussion, but I have to admit, that I also noticed that round shape in the roof structure when I first looked at the pictures. However, I have no firm hypothesis why it's there or if it really means anything.

So, considering your idea, wouldn't you expect the metal structure to be bent outwards if some heavy object ejected from the inside caused it? But on all pictures I have seen it looks more like it is bent inwards, no? I always had the impression it looks more like a large amount of heat at that point caused the steel to deform and bend downwards (Like when one puts a lighter under a sheet of plastic). It might be related to that fireball (which I currently believe to be hydrogen burning in a non-optimal mixture with oxygen) on that side of the building during the explosion.

EDIT: Oh, similar points have been raised in post above while I was writing this.

OK, two posts describing "bent in". Can you help me better understand what you mean by that?

 

[Borek]

The item that landed beyond the shared pool is clearly visible in the 2 flights over Fukushima video. I can't find the original anymore - here is one version on youtube - pause it between 2:17 and 2:32 and the thing is plainly visibile in the parking lot. Doesn't look like a crane to me, or a cap, I don't know what it is. Most of the pictures are deliberately cropped to avoid showing it, though so it must tell some kind of story.

Can't it be something left there by tsunami, before explosion?

 

[ihatelies]

Forget about it, it is not something from unit3. The video taken from a helicopter one hour after the tsunami shows the same junk in that parking lot. (frame attached)

Ok, I'll buy that. Mystery junk solved - something from the earthquake or tsunami. It certainly doesn't look like something that went 1500 feet high and came back down.

Something fell over to that side of Unit 4, but if it wasn't this it must have been something else.

 

[turi]

Temperatures in unit 3 still rather "jumpy":
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110511-2-5.pdf
E.g. upper part of RPV bottom head went from 235 to 296 °C within 6 hours (sensor failure not ruled out).

 

[TCups]

Common TCups, you know better than that.

Just my twisted sense of humor . . . |Fred and I aren't going away.