Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

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The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is facing significant challenges following the earthquake, with reports indicating that reactor pressure has reached dangerous levels, potentially 2.1 times capacity. TEPCO has lost control of pressure at a second unit, raising concerns about safety and management accountability. The reactor is currently off but continues to produce decay heat, necessitating cooling to prevent a meltdown. There are conflicting reports about an explosion, with indications that it may have originated from a buildup of hydrogen around the containment vessel. The situation remains serious, and TEPCO plans to flood the containment vessel with seawater as a cooling measure.
  • #691
|Fred said:
ok Bad news ... Smoke coming out of reactor n°3 at 17:15 JSP , workers had to be evacuated, cause of smoke unknown-ed, no work done on n°3 today Smoke not steam ... Smoke black then grey

sorry for double post we posted the same info simultaneously


edit: Japanese Authorities ,report no augmentation in radioactivity or change in pressure (where?), therefore they do not conclude yet that the Smoke comes from the combustion of radioactive materials.

What are the physics of moving radiation?
I understand that e.g. the radiation from the SFP are NOT measured on groundlevel near the NPP, since the walls of the SFP catches the radiation, so I would REALLY like to read a measurement of radiation above the SFP. That could be HUGE numbers.

And the next thing - the steam from the SFP, what kind of radioactive particles will it carry upwards? Propably near nothing.

The problem will rise the moment fuelrods are breached, and e.g. burned, so that radioactive particles are carried with the ashes and fumes out of the SFP, and at some time will fall down again, and radiate.

Can someone update me on the physics involved?


B'regards
Jens Jakob
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #692
Cooling/Electricity update:
But electricity was still not moving to Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4, because the March 11 mammoth earthquake and subsequent tsunami -- including seawater that had rushed into the reactors -- had damaged numerous pumps and other apparatus. The Tokyo Electric official said that spare parts were being brought in, so that everything could work again.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/21/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T2
 
  • #693
Kyodo News banner headlines:

NEWS ADVISORY: Grayish smoke above No. 3 spent nuke fuel pool stopped: agency (19:21)
BREAKING NEWS: Smoke also seen at Fukushima plant's No. 2 reactor: agency (19:16)
 
  • #694
I tried last evening, for a good hour, to confirm from any independent source, the exact layout of the floor plans of any of the units at Fukushima. I believe the visual assessment form the photographs is probably correct, but it conflicts with at least one of the models I have seen shown on a Japanese news video.

The best schematic drawings show the steam turbine plant in a different orientation relative to the reactor building.

Picture16.png


I understand that difference of orientation is not necessarily significant, but does this drawing of the reactor building seem to correlate with the statement that the SFP is on the southeast corner at Fukishima Unit 3 & 4, and does it fit with what is visible on the photographs of the damaged facilities?

Picture7-1.png


Does anyone have a better source for the actual "anatomy" of what the Fukishima facility is supposed to be, rather than a stylized schematic? A blueprint or floor plan would certainly help to be able to draw more informed conclusions about what is seen.

Thanks.
 
  • #695
TCups, that is a late version containment - it hasnt got the Torus.

But I read earlier today, in the the newsflash related to the grey smoke from #3, that the SFP is indeed in the south-east corner, so sofar you are spot-on with your analysis
 
  • #696
TCups said:
Does anyone have a better source for the actual "anatomy" of what the Fukishima facility is supposed to be, rather than a stylized schematic? A blueprint or floor plan would certainly help to be able to draw more informed conclusions about what is seen.

Thanks.

You can have a look at this view of the Oyster Creek Facility which I think is very similar to the Fukushima facility.

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/3206/reactor.jpg"
 
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  • #697
AntonL said:
I agree and pretty obvious as bits of concrete are still hanging to it, but note that the re-bars are dull, they do not reflect light



after initial dismissal I now lean slightly towards TCups statement. These rods are shiny, reflect the light and one also notes that the rod-ends have different light reflecting characteristics as the rod itself, possibly die to shaping. There seem to be two different rods involved of different diameter any explanation for this?

below a picture of fuel rods (not necessary of same type as used in Fukushima)
04710042klein.jpg

The most "telling" feature to me was the apparent rigidity of the rods. If they were pipes or structural steel or part of the overhead crane and fuel handling machine, as someone suggested as an alternative hypothesis, they came through the blast remarkably un-bent.
 
  • #698
ndray said:
You can have a look at this view of the Oyster Creek Facility which I think is very similar to the Fukushima facility.

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/3206/reactor.jpg"

OK, Oyester Creek, but then I have to assume that the most identifiable feature in the Fukushima building after the blast -- the intact square hole where the fuel casks are lifted by the crane, has been cut away from this drawing, correct?

Also, a small portion of the gate connecting the primary containment to the SFP is shown near the bottom of the transfer channel or "chute". If the scale is correct, it greatly reinforces my contention that the path of least resistance of a blast originating in the primary containment, outside of the RV would be through that gate (even if there are 2 of them, which does not appear to be the case) rather than out the top of the plug.

Notice the design. It appears to me that the logic behind a relatively thin-walled (concrete+ steel, or steel?) gate is that there is a large volume of water behind it, which under normal conditions, would tend to greatly reinforce the backside pressure on the gate at that point. If so, then here is another major design flaw. The reactor containment is compromised if the spent fuel pool is more than a few feet low on coolant. I suspect that the original designers considered an empty SFP with a hot reactor an unthinkable event. If so, then they should re-think that one.

Also, it occurs to me that if the overhead crane were parked at the north end of the building, it's weight would tend to bend the north end wall inward if the south, east and west walls were blown out, accounting for the under-folded north wall girders in our current pictures of Unit 3.

My conclusion:
Loss of water in the SFP greatly compromised the integrity of the reactor containment and the containment of the rods in the SFP when hydrogen and oxygen gasses in the reactor containment exploded. The dark smoke in the latest news release is ominous. I now fear that they may now have lost both the reactor core and the primary containment.


Someone please refute that.
 
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  • #699
About the usage of seawater and the problems it creates:

The Finnish Radiation and Nuclear Safety Authority STUK has contacted their Japanese counterpart. The STUK simulated the usage of seawater to cool down the reactor core in a series of tests in the early 90's. They concluded, that this prosedure should only be done for a very short period of time.

After the water evaporates it leaves the salt behind. When the salt solution becomes strong enough to crystallize it would block the core cooling circuit. (QUESTION: at what percentage does a salt solution form salt crystals) After this the salt is allmost impossible to remove and it would prevent the cooling of the core.
Now the Pacific Ocean has an average salt content of a 35 g / 1000 g of water
We assume that the reactor evaporates 2000 g (2 litres) water / second

therefore:

2 kg/s * 3600 s * 24 * 7 * 0.035 = ~42 tons per week or 6 tons a day !

That's definately a big issue at the moment. Could it be that the smoke coming out is from burning salt?
 
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  • #701
antonl said:
[PLAIN]http://www.faz.net/m/%7b7ae28c3d-c2a2-4b40-8e20-c536525a2b69%7dpicture.jpg

todays fire in reactor 3

omg.
 
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  • #702
Playbook said:
About the usage of seawater and the problems it creates:Now the Pacific Ocean has an average salt content of a 35 g / 1000 g of water
We assume that the reactor evaporates 2000 g (2 litres) water / second

therefore:

2 kg/s * 3600 s * 24 * 7 * 0.035 = ~42 tons per week or 6 tons a day !

That's definately a big issue at the moment. Could it be that the smoke coming out is from burning salt?

Salt melts at 801 degrees C and boils at 1413 degrees C
 
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  • #703
FYI from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8394963/Japan-nuclear-crisis-fears-over-food-contamination.html" By Nick Allen, in Tokyo 10:09AM GMT 21 Mar 2011
Engineers have managed to rig power cables to all six reactors at the Fukushima complex, and restarted a water pump that will help reverse the overheating that triggered the world's worst nuclear crisis in 25 years.

Some good news...

Rhody...
 
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  • #704
I think that the smoke from number 3 could be related to the ongoing electrical hookup. May be a piece of damaged equipment caught fire when they tried to power it back up with the newly run electrical line. All just speculation on my part and no links.
 
  • #705
AntonL said:
Salt melts at 801 degrees C and boils at 1413 degrees C

So, if the 6 tons of salt per day is at 801ºC or higher, it is a liquified, and above 1413ºC, it is vaporized. Either way, doesen't that mean it will either flow out of the primary containment into the torus pool, or vaporize rather than "burn"? And what does "burning" salt form? NaCl + O2 <=> ? What is the heat of transition for NaCl? Could melting or vaporizing salt, in fact, be a better coolant than pure water in that respect?

I can't get my arms around lots of dark smoke having something to do with ocean salt. I guess that shows.
 
  • #706
rhody said:
FYI from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8394963/Japan-nuclear-crisis-fears-over-food-contamination.html" By Nick Allen, in Tokyo 10:09AM GMT 21 Mar 2011 Some good news...

Rhody...

mattm2 said:
I think that the smoke from number 3 could be related to the ongoing electrical hookup. May be a piece of damaged equipment caught fire when they tried to power it back up with the newly run electrical line. All just speculation on my part and no links.

First IR image released in news broadcast
Heat.jpg


Rhody and Mattm2 - sorry to put a damper in your optimism
Electrical hookup would be in the control buildings to the east of the plant, we will see many days pass before the first cooling pump will work.

Hot spot over spent fuel pools indicated as 128 deg C and multiple hot spots at other places
(at the moment I cannot listen to the broadcast - only watch so no idea what they saying
 
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  • #707
FYI, Not verified and appears to be a not for profit:

"/www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8482842-website-monitors-radiation-levels-across-united-states-map"[/URL]
[QUOTE]A National Radiation Map that depicts environmental radiation levels across the United States is available on the home page of the Radiation Network. It is updated in real time every minute. Not a government site, this website claims to be the first where "the average citizen (or anyone in the world) can see what radiation levels are anywhere in the USA at any time."
Mineralab, LLC, who operates the website from Prescott, Arizona, cautions that it is unable to independently verify that the radiation levels or any radiation alerts that are displayed on the Radiation Map are correct and valid. Monitoring stations are operated by grassroots volunteers. Geiger counter malfunctions or proximity of the counters to certain medical procedures or to radioactive items can cause high readings to occur.
It appears from the map that there are nine monitoring stations currently functioning. The map indicates that they are located in Washington, California, Arizona, Colorado, and Indiana with two additional stations on the East Coast.
The public is invited to join the effort. This requires a digital Geiger counter, Software available from Radiation Network, a computer with Windows operating system, and direct internet access.
Active participants receive the benefit of a map that is fully interactive: with zoom capabilities; descriptions of nuclear sites and monitoring stations; additional map layers, including counties, airports, roads, railroads, lakes and rivers; and the capability to download city streets for their home county. The software also entitles the user to participate in the network's own chat forum.
[/QUOTE]

For what it is worth... not to be alarmist, just informed...

Rhody...
 
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  • #709
Heat.jpg


Those IR pictures seems to rule out some of Tcups hypothésis , if Spend fuel Rod were dispersed on site they would heat up and show.
 
  • #710
mattm2 said:
I think that the smoke from number 3 could be related to the ongoing electrical hookup. May be a piece of damaged equipment caught fire when they tried to power it back up with the newly run electrical line. All just speculation on my part and no links.

I think this is the best working hypothesis on the nature of the fire. I would think the electrical system would have been damaged at some point in this whole fiasco. Perhaps some salt water came into contact with a portion of the wiring, causing a short?
 
  • #711
|Fred said:
Heat.jpg


Those IR pictures seems to rule out some of Tcups hypothésis , if Spend fuel Rod were dispersed on site they would heat up and show.

Do you mean the picture of the newscaster with the screen behind him? Is there another source of more meaningful IR imagery?
 
  • #712
|Fred said:
Heat.jpg


Those IR pictures seems to rule out some of Tcups hypothésis , if Spend fuel Rod were dispersed on site they would heat up and show.

We only see reactor 3, reactor 4 is to the left of the picture
 
  • #713
TCups said:


OK, Oyester Creek, but then I have to assume that the most identifiable feature in the Fukushima building after the blast -- the intact square hole where the fuel casks are lifted by the crane, has been cut away from this drawing, correct?

Also, a small portion of the gate connecting the primary containment to the SFP is shown near the bottom of the transfer channel or "chute". If the scale is correct, it greatly reinforces my contention that the path of least resistance of a blast originating in the primary containment, outside of the RV would be through that gate (even if there are 2 of them, which does not appear to be the case) rather than out the top of the plug.

Notice the design. It appears to me that the logic behind a relatively thin-walled (concrete+ steel, or steel?) gate is that there is a large volume of water behind it, which under normal conditions, would tend to greatly reinforce the backside pressure on the gate at that point. If so, then here is another major design flaw. The reactor containment is compromised if the spent fuel pool is more than a few feet low on coolant. I suspect that the original designers considered an empty SFP with a hot reactor an unthinkable event. If so, then they should re-think that one.

Also, it occurs to me that if the overhead crane were parked at the north end of the building, it's weight would tend to bend the north end wall inward if the south, east and west walls were blown out, accounting for the under-folded north wall girders in our current pictures of Unit 3.

My conclusion:
Loss of water in the SFP greatly compromised the integrity of the reactor containment and the containment of the rods in the SFP when hydrogen and oxygen gasses in the reactor containment exploded. The dark smoke in the latest news release is ominous. I now fear that they may now have lost both the reactor core and the primary containment.


Someone please refute that.

The SFP has no significant structural association (to my knowledge) with the reactor's primary containment and surely not the Reactor Vessel that would lead to such a speculation.

Some causation thoughts: Due to the heavy seismic activity the primary containment (concrete) may have been compromised by sheared pipe lines and pneumatic seals on the top of the primary containment. The SFP is an independent system (piping and construction) as you can see from the drawings. Even with the access gates open it does not have to be further flooded to protect the spent fuel. Flooding the primary containment with sea water to externally cool the reactor vessel and its contents will definitely lead to a big and smelly mess within the primary containment. It is not known whether or not the reactor vessel has experienced a large break LOCA, but something has caused the reactor vessel water level to decrease and is surely the effects of trying to control RPV pressure via venting to the Primary Containment with no make up water to the RPV. The station is in a "black out" situation (no electrical power) that effectively stops all but the manual operation of valves (if they are so equipped). I believe venting of the RPV to the Primary Containment is automatically initiated on over pressurization, akin to your home water heater, but a little more complicated. Steam from venting would normally condense in the Suppression Pool and be pumped back to the RPV (alas no power for the pumps). Venting of accumalated gaes from the Primary Containment is by seepage or open valves (or blast damaged piping and valves), since the Stand-bye and normal off-gas system pumps are basically isolated or shutdown. I noted that TEPCO decided to cut holes in some of the reactor buildings to prevent buildup of explosive gases, which indicates to me they have very little control over the venting of the Primary Containments and the avenue of releases. Reactor relief valves have a limit on their ability to reset and contain pressures due to continued recycling, high temperature water and steam flows affecting their valve seats and springs. Sticking relief valves is not new stuff to the industry.

I do not understand why they have not established a continuous and remotely operated fogging spray over the reator buildings emitting steam and smoke to reduce the plume effects of offsite releases.

Just some idle thoughts. Won't know the whole story until events, actions and results sifted through, and are published in the future.
 
  • #714
TCups said:
Heat.jpg

Do you mean the picture of the newscaster with the screen behind him? Is there another source of more meaningful IR imagery?

Yes I marked the area of the picture below you will now be able to correlate features, like the vent pipe of reactor 4 to exhaust stack at top right hand corner and the pipes running North south along the turbine holes at bottom of IR pic. Just follow the green lines.
The most intense temp is south east corner of reactor 3
Sorry -I have not found a released version of the IR picture so we only have above when I did a quick screengrab when I saw on my PC.
heat5.jpg
 
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  • #715
mattm2 said:
I think that the smoke from number 3 could be related to the ongoing electrical hookup. May be a piece of damaged equipment caught fire when they tried to power it back up with the newly run electrical line. All just speculation on my part and no links.

If that were the case Tepco would be aware of the cause. At this time Tepco claims to be unaware of the cause. They further claim to be investigating. If spent fuel was burning, air samples should detect the different isotopes from spent fuel rods, yes?
 
  • #716
AntonL said:
Yes I marked the area of the picture below, the most intense temp is south east corner of reactor 3
Sorry -I have not found a released version of the IR picture so we only have above when I did a quick screengrab when I saw above.
heat1-1.jpg

Sorry, Anton -- I just can't seem to get oriented to the IR image and don't have a lot of time just now. The two pipes at the bottom of the color image are the steam pipes between the reactors and the turbine bldgs. one of the pipes should have a break. I can't see enough detail to make any conclusion without a lot more study. Later.
 
  • #717
TCups said:
Sorry, Anton -- I just can't seem to get oriented to the IR image and don't have a lot of time just now. The two pipes at the bottom of the color image are the steam pipes between the reactors and the turbine bldgs. one of the pipes should have a break. I can't see enough detail to make any conclusion without a lot more study. Later.

Appologies TCups and others I had finger problems in uploading the picture with yellow box showing area covered by IR picture and green lines connecting common features as aid to orientation, please see my https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3200820&postcount=717" with correct orientation aid or just scroll up two posts
 
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  • #718
[PLAIN]http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2929/fukushimair2.png [PLAIN]http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4564/fukushimair1.png

Here are screen grabs from a high-quality NHK World stream. Original picture size, cropped with pixel-accuracy. From memory the translation said the hotspots are around 120°C.
 
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  • #719
OK, so the image is tightly cropped on reactor unit 3. The region of the smoke plume is extremely hot. There are scattered heat signatures in the remainder of the reactor bldg. I can't really conclude much about the remainder of the debris field(s) without a larger FOV and it is not clear what the window/level setting of the IR imagery is, but presumably it would be set to find something as hot as an exposed fuel rod.

So far, I don't seen any contradiction to the containment explosion with blast of fuel rods and perhaps some scattered fragments of fuel rods outside of the FOV. But we are drawing conclusions of a picture of a TV picture at low resolution.
 
  • #720
TCups said:
OK, so the image is tightly cropped on reactor unit 3. The region of the smoke plume is extremely hot. There are scattered heat signatures in the remainder of the reactor bldg. I can't really conclude much about the remainder of the debris field(s) without a larger FOV and it is not clear what the window/level setting of the IR imagery is, but presumably it would be set to find something as hot as an exposed fuel rod.

They said that they used this IR footage to conclude the temps in the SPF of unit three is 128 degree c (IIRC). So the white areas would be around that temperature.

There's a bit too much speculation going on in this thread without any real basis at the moment, imo.
 

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