Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

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The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is facing significant challenges following the earthquake, with reports indicating that reactor pressure has reached dangerous levels, potentially 2.1 times capacity. TEPCO has lost control of pressure at a second unit, raising concerns about safety and management accountability. The reactor is currently off but continues to produce decay heat, necessitating cooling to prevent a meltdown. There are conflicting reports about an explosion, with indications that it may have originated from a buildup of hydrogen around the containment vessel. The situation remains serious, and TEPCO plans to flood the containment vessel with seawater as a cooling measure.
  • #1,291
Fresno Phil said:
Speaking of lack of data, if you haven't seen the official reports from NISA, they are here:

http://www.meti.go.jp/press/

Specifically, the "Plant Parameter" reports have a wealth of data:

http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110326002/20110326002-3.pdf

If you understand plant construction and physics, these tell quite a story.

The first line is amount of water injection: 700 litres/minute, which equals ~1000 tonnes/day

The second line is water coverage over fuel rods (negative is uncovered)

Third line is reactor vessel pressure (anybody know why 2 & 3 are negative?)

Fifth line is primary containment vessel temperature (unit 1 is 200 degrees still!)

Next is DW/SC pressure. This is the interesting one. I assume DW is dry-well, and it shows that Nos 2 & 3 are at or close to 0.1Mpa (abs), which is of course atmospheric pressure at sea level. For some reason nobody in the press has caught the fact that since Tuesday both units 2 and 3 have apparently lost pressure, and TEPCO didn't feel like telling them I guess.

Unit 2's S/C (suppression chamber I assume) pressure is listed as "downscale", which means unreadable. Unit 1's torus pressure is identical with the primary container vessel pressure, and Unit 3's torus pressure is oddly almost twice the drywell pressure.

CAMS is radiation monitoring and should be self-explanatory.

The next two lines list operating pressure and max pressure for the drywell.

Fresno Phil I note this is your first post, WELCOME , but stop being an alarmist and stop exaggerating the figures this is a serious forum and we are trying to to stay with facts.

If you took time and read any of the previous post you will note that we all understand these figures and they are availabe in english too http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110325-3-3.pdf

700 litres per minute appears nowhere in your linked document

To explain the negative pressure please study the difference between gauge and absolute pressures or simply add .101 MPa to convert to MPa_g to MPa_abs

That the Dry Well is near atmospheric pressure is a good sign and is normal condition as that indicates that the reactor vessel is holding
 
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  • #1,292
AntonL said:
Fresno Phil I note this is your first post, WELCOME , but stop being an alarmist and stop exaggerating the figures this is a serious forum and we are trying to to stay with facts.

700 litres per minute appears nowhere in your linked document

Actually if you add 120 +340 + 240 you get 700.

That the Dry Well is near atmospheric pressure is a good sign and is normal condition as that indicates that the reactor vessel is holding

That would be the non-alarmist position, yes.

But if these containment vessels are supposed to be holding steam, a 1 ATM pressure reading indicates that they are not.

Note #1's drywell is ~2.7 ATM. THAT'S what containing steam looks like.

Reactor vessel pressures are negative for 2 & 3 so it's hard to say the steam is being retained there.
 
  • #1,293
Fresno Phil said:
Reactor vessel pressures are negative for 2 & 3 so it's hard to say the steam is being retained there.
I read a report somewhere that indicated that pressure sensing equipment for units 2 and 3 might not be operable or reliable.
 
  • #1,294
  • #1,295
Fresno Phil said:
Actually if you add 120 +340 + 240 you get 700.

That would be the non-alarmist position, yes.
Sorry - maybe I was a bit too hard on you

Rest assured we are all alarmed what is happening, but we try to remain rational.

statements should be referenced with a link to the source
or clearly marked as a proposal or hypothesis
 
  • #1,296
downwinder said:
If we look at the decay of Cl 38 it is a pure beta emitter. This means that if an analysis of this isotope was performed a chemical separation of the sample would be required for the analysis to take place because there are to many competing beta emitters to provide an accurate analysis. I really doubt that they would do this complex analysis at this point.
There are also gammas, see http://nucleardata.nuclear.lu.se/nucleardata/toi/nuclide.asp?iZA=170038" . High probabilities (30 %) of emissions at 1.643 and 2.167 MeV. It is very easy to detect.

downwinder said:
The only way that Cl 38 can be present at this late date is for neutron activation of the salt water coolant. I suspect this is an error - if it isn't big problem.
I agree. But the info is still there at http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/index.html" . It is insane. They should publish the gamma spectrum.
 
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  • #1,297
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  • #1,298
The above seawater analysis is 330m from the south water outlet that serves 1-4 (5 & 6 use the north outlet I believe). They carried 500ml to Fukushima Dai Ni plant for analysis.

Column 1 is detected amount, Column 2 is Detection Margin Amount, I believe Column 3 is the legal maximum for nuclear plants, and Column 4 is the ratio of 1 over 3.
 
  • #1,299
Thank you Phil
could you please confirm my translation of this:
原子炉圧力容器へ淡水注入中 <= injection of "tap" water "tap" as in not seawater
Now (26th 8:00 JST) all 3 reactors are getting fresh water
In the past they stated
原子炉圧力容器へ海水注入中 note the symbol after the へ it changed from 海 (sea) to 淡 (Light)

Source latest http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110324006/20110324006-1.pdf
 
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  • #1,300
|Fred said:
@AntonL
Sewage pipes does not mean SFP but pipes linking the core to the turbine

and how do you explain water in reactor building 4.
and all happening at the same time?

sounds like an exterior catchment/retainment tank for fire fighting water, sprinkler systems etc being full and now overflowing into the basements. These catchment/retainment tanks are used under normal circumstance to collect fire fighting run off water such that it can be filtered and cleared before releasing into the environment. With all the water being pumped into the SFP one or two could be overflowing due to other breaches in the pool and draining into these tanks through the provided drains. Also spent fuel rods could be damaged from exposure to air and by the effect of the crashing heavy debry from the explosion into the pool smashing the rods, thus fission elements could well be in direct contact with the cooling water.
 
  • #1,301
|Fred said:
Thank you Phil
could you please confirm my translation of this:
try http://translate.google.com

and status report http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110325-5-3.pdf confirms fresh water to all reactors
 
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  • #1,302
Fresno Phil said:
Speaking of lack of data, if you haven't seen the official reports from NISA, they are here:

http://www.meti.go.jp/press/

Specifically, the "Plant Parameter" reports have a wealth of data:

http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110326002/20110326002-3.pdf

If you understand plant construction and physics, these tell quite a story.


I would love to see a graph plotted from the data in the last 2 weeks of these releases.
.
 
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  • #1,303
Bodge said:
I would love to see a graph plotted from the data in the last 2 weeks of these releases.
.

Get to work! we are waiting for your graphs

http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110318...10318008-4.pdf
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110320...10320002-3.pdf
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110321...10321004-4.pdf
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110321...10321005-4.pdf
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110322...10322003-3.pdf
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110322...10322010-3.pdf (first temperature readings)
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110323...10323004-3.pdf
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110323...10323012-4.pdf
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/f...110324-2-4.pdf (reactor 4 temperature gauge not working after black smoke)
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/f...110325-1-4.pdf
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/f...110325-3-3.pdf
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/f...110325-5-3.pdf (first fresh water injection)
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110326002/20110326002-3.pdf

Please add other links for other days if you can find them - I am especially interested in 19 March
 
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  • #1,304
Well you stated that from your translation Japanese thought radiation came from the SFRP, I just stated that your translation was incorrect.
That aside I do share Tepco & Nisa opinion that it comes more likely from the reactor via leakage in the pipes.
 
  • #1,305
I would love to see a graph plotted from the data in the last 2 weeks of these releases

Yes that would be very interesting.

It woud be also interesting to include reactors 5 and 6 to use as reference because those are not damaged. Just note that reactor 6 is from an other generation of BWR (which explains its square building instead of the rectangular one). I believe it's a Mark II or Mark III containment (to be confirmed), it doesn't have a torus (to be confirmed also) so the parameters may be slightly different.
 
  • #1,307
  • #1,308
Thank you,
To summarize here is an hypothesis on the current situation made by Areva,
Does this scenario fit the available evidences?
[PLAIN]http://min.us/jjPB0E.jpg
[PLAIN]http://min.us/jjTYfc.jpg
 
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  • #1,309
assuming the Unit 1 containment and vessel are flooded, how do we explain the reported stable and low water level in the vessel ? how do we explain recent pressure and temperature increase ? in both vessel and containment of unit 1 ?
 
  • #1,310
Gilles said:
Gentlemen, I read that on a French forum
and now the translation (sorry for the possible broken English)
and the screen shot

[PLAIN]http://www-laog.obs.ujf-grenoble.fr/~henri/Fukushima.gif

what's your opinion?

It appears the orange object is before the helicopter reaches the roof on reactor building 2 on its way to reactor building 3. So my opinion is that it is most unlikely to be the core of reactor 3 as it is in the wrong location.

The video you have linked is the clearest version I have seen of this video. From it I could tell that this mystery object:

attachment.php?attachmentid=33384&stc=1&d=1300800912.jpg


Is the boom of a wheeled crane.
 
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  • #1,311
"...the three injured workers had stepped into was 10,000 times the level normally seen in coolant water at the plant. It said that the amount of radiation the workers were thought to have been exposed to in the water was two to six sieverts."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/asia/26japan.html?_r=3&hp=&pagewanted=all"

This is beginning to look more and more like Chernobyl, but perhaps in slow motion.
 
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  • #1,313
I don't think these have been posted before - but apologies if I'm repeating stuff.

The detail on the seawater tests (I assume):

http://eq.wide.ad.jp/files_en/110325ocean_1300_en.pdf

Radiation monitoring results (land, outside the perimeter of the exclusion zone):

http://eq.wide.ad.jp/files_en/110326fukushima3_1000_en.pdf
 
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  • #1,314
|Fred said:
Thank you,
To summarize here is an hypothesis on the current situation made by Areva,
Does this scenario fit the available evidences?

I am surprised that Areva, Europe's biggest builder of NPP would go public.
I checked the slide show - basically is the same as the picture I have made
 
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  • #1,315
'Two of the three have been hospitalised due to possible burns caused by beta rays, which can cause major skin damage.

They were not wearing boots at the time so their feet were soaked in the water.

TEPCO said almost no water was present during an on-site inspection the previous day and also that the level of radiation was low during the inspection.

"Because of this, the workers were believed to have continued their work even after their dosimeter alarm went off, assuming a problem with the machine," a TEPCO official said.

TEPCO plans to strictly reinforce the rule of evacuating the site whenever the dosimeter's alarm goes off.'

See:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/25/3173500.htm"

This is farcical.
 
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  • #1,316
To all:

Please stop speculating about these red spots. There is a lot of debris of all colors in the area, just because something is red or orange doesn't mean it is hot and glowing. IR pictures don't confirm anything near red hot, that would mean 500-800 deg C or above, IR pictures show hot spots several hundred degrees lower. Let's stick to facts, there is already enough misinformation circulating around.
 
  • #1,317
AtomicWombat said:
attachment.php?attachmentid=33383&stc=1&d=1300800912.jpg


If it is indeed the the top of the reactor it is in the wrong place, suggesting the reactor was destroyed by the explosion in building 3, which has been my "best guess" for some time.


Sorry if this has already been commented on; I've been away for a few days.

jensjakob said:
I think that the round feature is the top of the tank just above it

No jensjacob, the tank above and behind the mystery object originally had a flat top, as you will see if you look at older footage. There were no domed vessels near the base of building 3 - or on it.
 
  • #1,318
AtomicWombat said:
If it is indeed the the top of the reactor it is in the wrong place, suggesting the reactor was destroyed by the explosion in building 3, which has been my "best guess" for some time.

Maybe Occam should take his Razor to that?
 
  • #1,319
jlduh said:
Now we can try to speculate if the smoke plume from this building is coming from this place or not, but if think it is (satellite picture just after the explosion, 14th or march):

http://www.netimago.com/image_182152.html

http://www.netimago.com/image_182153.html

Yes jlduh,
I think the smoke plume comes from multiple sources that are essentially the hole where number 3 reactor used to be.

Tcups has produced an impressive series of hypotheses. However, any failure mechanism must account for the extremely energetic explosion of the reactor 3 building. The vast majority of the energy of this explosion was directed upwards, so it is likely sourced inside the primary containment (reactor, dry-well, wet well). Since this was necessarily purged of oxygen prior to the explosion it must be either 1) a steam explosion, or 2) a chemical explosion not involving free oxygen (initially at least), or 3) a combination. (We can almost certainly rule out a nuclear explosion).

A final possibility is a rupture of the base of the reactor, producing a rocket effect due to its pressurisation (~2000psi) - blasting the reactor through the top of its containment. This would almost certainly have been prevented by safety pressure relief values, and is unlikely to have been this energetic in any case. Almost certainly the RV pressure would have been reduced markedy after the reactor was SCRAMed.

The best explanation consistent with the visual evidence is that the reactor core melted through the bottom of the reactor and fell into a flooded dry well. As I've discussed before, this would produce an explosive steam reaction, combined with a highly energetic reaction between superhot zirconium and water, producing hydrogen, that itself exploded once the top of the containment was breached.

After an energetic explosion in the RV it would be no surprise to find the circulation pipes have failed in the turbine building. After flooding the now open reactor with sea water (esp from the fire trucks - there is no evidence anything effective flooding was done before this) it is not surprising the turbine hall is full of contaminated water.

Nothing consistent or coherent has come out of TEPCO to enable a better understanding of what has happened. And I suspect even the water analyses have been selectively leaked (excluding important components) to control their story.
 
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  • #1,320
AntonL said:
In the last days we discussed bullets (debris at high velocity) smashing through
neighbouring roofs let's call these falling debris, being material blasted high into the sky and
falling at high equally high velocity. Penetration holes can be seen on turbine building no
3 and in the latest SDF video from two days back, showed steam escaping through holes
of unit 2 roof - possibly also a bombs from rector 3 explosion.

What we have not discussed are these large chunks of debris falling into the SPF and destroying the
spent fuel rods and unit 3 also had 200 brand new rods. In this case the Zirconium
jackets could be destroyed and fission products exposed to the water in the pools

Anton:

It is possible but not very likely that high-lofted falling debris could have damaged SFP3 or other buildings and structures. My initial assessment was that the greatest force of the blast went upward, from the explosion video. But the subsequent photos of the damage on the ground told a different story, with the greatest visible damage appearing to have come from a sideways blast.

I eventually resolved this in my mind by the observation that it was the concrete slabs blasting outward from the building that became bullet or missile like projectiles that did the damage, east and west, and the falling crane, damage to the north. But why, then, if most of the damage appeared to be on the southeast end was there little or no visible damage to Bldg 4? I will come back to that

The vertical component went through much lighter roof panels and may have been less constrained going upward, plus channeled upward by the stronger structure of the weight bearing beams and concrete slab sidewall construction and perhaps the 3SFP, particularly if any large volume of water in the 3SFP was explosively vaporized.

When you consider the absence of north side projectile damage, I believe it is because neither the north or south sides of the upper floor had concrete slabs. The weight bearing function of the east and west walls was to support the weight of the two side rails and the large overhead crane. The reinforced wall structure and the large side rails of the crane helped to hold things together somewhat, with the side panels popping out. Absent concrete panels and weight-bearing columns north and south, there was little projectile blast damage southward other than lighter debris, and nothing to constrain the overhead crane from being blasted out the north wall, or simply rolling down the rails and out the side of the building if the north wall and a couple of the north columns collapsed. The north side damage was to the adjacent lower building, not the side of Bldg2.

On the recent discussion of the flooding of the basement of Turbine Bldg 3, there was a side elevation diagram that showed the relationship of the height of the top of Reactor Bldg 3 vs the top of Turbine Bbldg 3. That will give a bit more insight into the trajectory of the side wall panels that blew out, east and west.

So, in retrospect, I can see how a hydrogen explosion first exited Bldg 3 upward and southward.

As for vertical upward, then downward "bomb-like" (falling debris), there are not that many candidates for heavy debris that could have been blown straight upward. These, in my mind, were
1) section(s) of the roof panels (sheet metal) and girders (not that heavy)
2) the fuel handling machine (visible in RB4 but not in RB3 after the blast,
3) the reinforced concrete plug or sections of the plug atop the drywall containment of reactor 3
4) the contents of SFP3 itself

If the plug blew from the drywall containment, then I cannot see with certainty where it punched through the roof girders, or where it fell to earth, or why a jet of steam, apparently from the drywall containment of RV3 might be seen afterward. It would leave a huge gaping hole and voluminous billowing smoke for days (maybe). This scenario seems very unlikely to me

If the fuel rods were blown straight up and out of SFP3 by the explosion, how did a blast above the level of the SFP3 cause it? Perhaps residual water in the SFP vaporized explosively. Very speculative at best and also seems very unlikely.

That only leaves one "heavy" candidate, the fuel handling machine, and I doubt that did enough damage falling to displace any fuel rods.

Addendum: Per Anton's request, please note that any reference to "bombs" or "missiles" refer to falling or flying debris, and should not be interpreted otherwise. Apologies to any conspiracy theorists who may have misunderstood.
 
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