Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[Joe Neubarth]

Thanks for that! All the best on your health Sir!

I imagine though that external and internal (ingested) radiation is a little different - so I`m avoiding drinking water for the moment...cheers (good reason to drink beer!)

Indeed! Japan has some darn good beers. They rival some of the best beers in the world.

 

[Bodge]

Please can somebody tell me the theoretical decay heat remaining in reactors 1-3, assuming all all fuel remains within the RPV?

Also, what are the consequences of the fact that the fuel from reactor 4 was only transferred to the spent fuel pool in December?

What levels of Pu-239 will be in play in each reactor and SPF? Will this effect chances for fission (I've been thinking about the "13 neutron rays" {sic} observed by Tepco).

To those who understand all these questions and more, the situation at Fukushima must be clear.. if data has been reliable..


I understand fortran notation now, but am confident in saying that will be the limit of my understanding of fortran!

 

[AntonL]

news coming in KYODO News

NEWS ADVISORY: Radioactive iodine 1,850 times limit in sea near plant, up from Fri.
11:31 27 March
NEWS ADVISORY: Pool of water at No.2 reactor may be from reactor core: safety agency
11:29 27 March
NEWS ADVISORY: Pool of water at Fukushima's No.2 reactor contains high radioactivity

NHK TV reports 10,000,000 million times as in normal reactorNEWS ADVISORY: Over 1,000 millisieverts per hour found in water at No.2 reactor
12:00 27 March

 

[Joe Neubarth]

news coming in KYODO News

NEWS ADVISORY: ...


NEWS ADVISORY: Over 1,000 millisieverts per hour found in water at No.2 reactor
12:00 27 March

So why don't they just say One Sievert per hour? In one hour you can get very sick. In four hours, half of the people thus exposed would be dead.

Those three workers received between two to six sieverts to their legs. I doubt that they will be able to keep their legs, but the estimate could be way off.

 

[intric8]

Could someone please clarify the specific isotope(s) responsible for the beta emissions coming from h20 in the plant? Understanding the beta energy (ie, .5 mev vs 10 mev) is crucial to calculating actual exposures to skin and at depth (≅ 1cm) for those whose feet were exposed.

The puddle was later measured at 400 mSv per hour, presumably mixed gamma/beta but unverified.

 

[AntonL]

NEWS ADVISORY: Over 1,000 millisieverts per hour found in water at No.2 reactor
12:00 27 March

and here is the analysis

 

[KateB]

and here is the analysis

Anyone else concerned about the large quantities of Barium nuclides in 2 and 3? Seems like a lot of that should be gone. Granted, it's only a little over one half life, but still a sizable amount. The Tc-99m is concerning also...

Edit: for the Barium, I was thinking we should be seeing more La-140, but I supposed it could have decayed to Cerium, which isn't shown...
But the Tc-99m is still concerning. Especially without any translation of Molybdenum values (which I am assuming at this point is low enough to not be in consideration...)

 

[intric8]

Assuming these levels remain persistently high, at some point the continuity in this effort will be severely disrupted. Fukushima engineers will start dropping out fast.

 

[M. Bachmeier]

Anyone else concerned about the large quantities of Barium nuclides in 2 and 3? Seems like a lot of that should be gone. Granted, it's only a little over one half life, but still a sizable amount. The Tc-99m is concerning also...

I was just about to ask about the short lived isotopes. What kind of half lives are we talking about?

 

[KateB]

I was just about to ask about the short lived isotopes. What kind of half lives are we talking about?

Ba-140 12.8 days -> La-140 1.6 days -> Ce 140

Tc-99m 6 hours -> Ru-99
Tc-99m only occurs as a product of fission of Uranium, one way or another, as far as I know.

Edit: NOT an expert. Just a student.

 

[M. Bachmeier]

Ba-140 12.8 days -> La-140 1.6 days -> Ce 140

Tc-99m 6 hours -> Ru-99
Tc-99m only occurs as a product of fission of Uranium, one way or another, as far as I know.

(EDIT)*** Uncertain of facts concerning possible fission products re: #3 ***
Isn't that the second indication of a fission product, the first being associated with #3? Are these guys pushing the water too fast?

 

[M. Bachmeier]

Another thought is, how are they going to be able to fix a leak with radiation levels that high?

 

[KateB]

Isn't that the second indication of a fission product, the first being associated with #3? Are these guys pushing the water too fast?

I am not sure that the rate is all that important, just that it is there at all, but I am not an expert. My reasoning is that it is because it means the control rods are useless if fission is happening, which it might well not be, and water present would just act like a neutron moderator more so than a coolant. My unprofessional opinion is that heavily borated water should be pushed, if it hasn't been already. And thankfully they have fresh water, as who knows what radioactive isotopes could be/possibly were induced with all the elements present in sea water...

Edit: I think what you are referring to are the CL-38 isotopes that were found, which **may** indicate fission, but it isn't clear whether that is an error or not.

 

[AntonL]

Are these guys pushing the water too fast?

I speculated this on 25th - https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3209639&postcount=1218"

 

[Bodge]

Incredibly worrying translation posted on Greenpeace Japan's twitter from a very recent TEPCO press-conference:

""We don't have equipment to measure plutonium, so we are thinking of asking experts." (TEPCO on presser, 12:31 local time)"

The "presser" was a determined journalist asking about what is in the water pools in buildings.

Also, I think Reactor 2 is now confirmed RPV breach due to levels of Cs-134 measured outside of core.

 

[M. Bachmeier]

I speculated this on 25th - https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3209639&postcount=1218"

Right now I'm also very concerned about Tc-99m from #2 and what probably was CL-38 from #3. Add to this fresh water...

 

[Bodge]

Assuming these levels remain persistently high, at some point the continuity in this effort will be severely disrupted. Fukushima engineers will start dropping out fast.

The problem for disaster management is that at doses over 1Sv, congnitive function declines.

 

[AntonL]

Another thought is, how are they going to be able to fix a leak with radiation levels that high?

by a fusion of middle age and new technology

lead plated body armour and robotic muscle suits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7HKD-FWKkE&feature=related

 

[M. Bachmeier]

by a fusion of middle age and new technology

lead plated body armour and robotic muscle suits

Nice idea, but I don't think it will be ready in time.

 

[Bodge]

Why would 'special equipment' be needed to detect Plutonium isotopes??

unconfirmed translation from twitter: Tepco may have just stated that the device they need is at Daiini

 

[M. Bachmeier]

Why would 'special equipment' be needed to detect Plutonium isotopes??

Tepco may have just stated that the device they need is at Daiini

I wonder if they're talking about detection in air?

 

[Reno Deano]

by a fusion of middle age and new technology

lead plated body armour and robotic muscle suits

They will probably use high pressure grout and remote application. Same way they do geothermal wells to shut them off.

 

[Bodge]

I wonder if they're talking about detection in air?

It is ridiculous for them to say they haven't checked yet. IMO

 

[KateB]

(EDIT)*** Uncertain of facts concerning possible fission products re: #3 ***
Isn't that the second indication of a fission product, the first being associated with #3? Are these guys pushing the water too fast?

Ha! Oops, silly me, I was still zeroed in on the possibility of fission and interpreted your question as being in regards to it; I guess I should have supposed that the integrity of the system under that kind of water load may be just as important.

 

[83729780]

and here is the analysis

these releases are coincident with the injection of fresh water, which can accommodate more solutes

ps: 2.9 trillion becquerels I-134 per liter!

 

[|Fred]

Associated Press corrected the following: the 1 sievert reading is for air, not water.
source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/26/ap/asia/main20047576.shtml
having said that the article is still soso mixing sv and sv/h and sv/y

2.9 trillion becquerels I-134 per liter! => assuming the fission stopped on the 14th that would be some thing in the range of 2.9*10^9= N *(0.5)^((27-14)*24))
2,419*10^103 atom of I-134 just for this liter (some one clever should be able to calculate the weight of that)

 

[KateB]

these releases are coincident with the injection of fresh water, which can accommodate more solutes

ps: 2.9 trillion becquerels I-134 per liter!

(pps: at a half life of under an hour, unless there are some odd isotopes in there...)

 

[Passionflower]

Perhaps someone knowledgeable could explain to me why they haven't started closing these plants up with concrete? How much longer do we need to wait?
Does anyone perhaps expect something could be salvaged in those plants?

 

[AntonL]

Here is a nice slide explaining the isotopes found in a reactor

first column during or immediately after the reaction
second column after a couple of days in SFP and released if damage to fuel rods
last column the ones you should be careful of

 

[|Fred]

>slide explaining the isotopes found in a reactor
If the reactor is working properly I thought that the isotopes were contained in the Zircaloy casing