Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[Joe Neubarth]

I work with molten lead quite frequently actually. Try tossing it over a stack of randomly oriented pipe and try to come up with flat smooth sheets as seen in the image. (Don't actually attempt to do this.)

You tossed a five hundred pound blob of nearly solid amalgam of metal and it did not stick together? Or you tossed a few ounces of high temperature lead that pours freely like cream and you say there is a difference. In that case I would agree with you, but you have not made a point other than the fact that you want to belabor the issue ad infinitum. that looks like a melted but now solidified mass of metal to me.What does it look like to you again?

 

[Godzilla1985]

Cause of death was probably tsunami - victims showed lots of blood loss. Although, I don't recall hearing of two missing workers throughout this time, so I'm kinda surprised.

 

[orndorf]

Cause of death was probably tsunami - victims showed lots of blood loss. Although, I don't recall hearing of two missing workers throughout this time, so I'm kinda surprised.

Not much point in speculating on the cause but i heard they were doing duct work inside one of the reactors when they went missing.

 

[AntonL]

Cause of death was probably tsunami - victims showed lots of blood loss. Although, I don't recall hearing of two missing workers throughout this time, so I'm kinda surprised.

correct

The plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. said the same day that two workers in their 20s who had been missing since the March 11 killer quake and tsunami that crippled the power station were found dead in the basement of a reactor's building last Wednesday.

 

[Godzilla1985]

Is it true that their dosimeters max out at 1,000 mSv?

 

[warren_c]

FWIW.
This chart might be useful to those worrying about radiation exposure:

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/radiation-dosage-chart/

It puts radiation dose levels in perspective and in context. With out political bias from either side of the nuclear energy debate.

 

[Reno Deano]

This picture worries me:
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/2011/04/82781.html

If the military takes these precautions - why do we still see workers on the ground in lot less protection?

---------------------------

Evidently you have not been on a boat on the water, with wind blowing. The boat is constantly taking in water and discharging it. BTW, the area they are traversing is in the release zone of the reactors in crisis.

 

[TCups]

PROPOSED MECHANISM FOR BLAST AND DAMAGE AT BLDG 4

Please note that this diagram has been modified from the original.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture30-4.png

Suppose that fuel was being loaded into a cask in the bottom of the small pool adjacent to the main SFP 4. Suppose also, that it was the smaller volume of water in the adjacent pool that boiled off long before the large pool. If that cask and the rods it contains overheat and lead to an explosion (maybe from just thermal damage to the concrete, or what ever), the bulk of the SFP4 is protected by its thick reinforced walls. So the smaller pool explosion goes instead straight up and somewhat to the east, through the transfer slot, and blows out the bottom, north, south and east walls of the small pool. When it does, the force of the explosion can be transmitted to the relatively weak outer walls of the upper floors along the lift shaft on the west and south sides of Bldg 4, out the tunnel door and into the lower floors of the building, around the heavy reinforced structure of the primary containment vessel.

Suppose also that perhaps not visible on the early satellite photos, the concussion wave from the earlier explosion at the southeast corner of Building 3 has done structural damage to the northeast corner of Bldg 4, perhaps cracking some of the concrete panels and weight bearing columns. The blast from inside the building would then tend to do more damage at the northeast corner as well.

Is the cask that would be in the bottom of that transfer cooling pool adjacent to the main SFP4 intended to be used as a temporary means to transfer older spent fuel rods over a very brief time to the larger SFP7 in back of the main facility? If so, and if there were a "fail in place" accident that left the cask, open or closed, in a very small pool that lost cooling water, what would the consequences be? Need to know more about those casks and procedures for transferring fuel rods.

Also, look back at the early photos before the large crane-like structure is brought into spray water on the SFP of 4 -- lots of debris on the ground. But when the crane has been put in place, it looks like a dozer has cleared the debris from the ground and perhaps metal plates have been laid on the ground before the large hose crane is brought in. Did high level waste on the ground delay placement of that crane and hose until it could be cleared:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/WestElevation.png

DID THIS HAPPEN AT UNIT 4?

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture31.png

Debunk it, please.

 

[warren_c]

High resolution photos from Air Photo Service Co. Ltd., Japan. aerial photo drone :
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp/daiichi-photos.htm

 

[AntonL]

Attached photos of >1Sv flowing into the ocean

 

[razzz]

That leak, more like a gusher, is doing them a favor. Stop the flow and do what with the pent-up water? Probably dangerous just standing around the mist from the outflow.

 

[Borek]

Is it true that their dosimeters max out at 1,000 mSv?

Source?

Even if, that's expected. Their bodies were there for three weeks, 2 mSv/h would be enough.

 

[mattm2]

AtomicWombat: Concerning your link at post number 2589 "Chernobyl: Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment": In my non-scientific opinion: If even one percent of this long article is the truth: It is overwhelmingly unbelievable and unbelievably overwhelming.

 

[ivars]

Worst case scenario for this accident spelled out in Real News:

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2657&p=31564#p31564"

Could nor resist to listen. So, if something of this does not happen, we should be happy.

 

[|Fred]

using the link to the video posted yesterday
I'll toke a few screen grab and amended the layout (still a few things missing though)
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/imMBxC.jpg

 

[AtomicWombat]

A couple of construction videos of Fukushima just popped up:

On the first video 11:45-12:15 some excellent shots of the reactor interior and the operation of the control rods (blades) sliding between the fuel assmblies.

 

[AntonL]

Sorry for the double post - but this time with better pictures of >1Sv leak
Water has found its way by cable ducts from the reactor building to the sea
There seems to quite a head for the water to be ejected that forcefully and also note the steam rising - so it is pretty hot

(In my opinion this looks like a drain hole for cable drawing pit and not a crack)

[URL]http://www.asahi.com/photonews/gallery/fukushimagenpatsu2/images/0402_plant2.jpg[/URL]

[URL]http://www.asahi.com/photonews/gallery/fukushimagenpatsu2/images/0402_plant1.jpg[/URL]

[URL]http://www.asahi.com/photonews/gallery/fukushimagenpatsu2/images/0402_cement.jpg[/URL]

But the leak continues and access blocked by a couple of tons of concrete


[URL]http://www.asahi.com/photonews/gallery/infographics3/images/0403_pit2.jpg[/URL]

 

[Gilles]

sorry again if those videos have already been discussed, but have you seen that ?
blue flashing light possibly showing localized criticality :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRoIpMNTbcQ&feature=player_embedded

analysis of the video of unit-4 showing that there is no water left in the pool :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6DZQzY_k2c&feature=player_embedded

 

[Maxion]

Sorry for the double post - but this time with better pictures of >1Sv leak
Water has found its way by cable ducts from the reactor building to the sea
There seems to quite a head for the water to be ejected that forcefully and also note the steam rising - so it is pretty hot

(In my opinion this looks like a drain hole for cable drawing pit and not a crack)

Lol what a cock-up.


I wonder why they didn't first line the inside of the pit with some plastic or other flexible water-proof material and then pour gravel on it which would have slowed the leak down at least. On top of this they could have poured concrete which might have created a better seal.

 

[hoyrylollaaja]

sorry again if those videos have already been discussed, but have you seen that ?
blue flashing light possibly showing localized criticality :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRoIpMNTbcQ&feature=player_embedded

analysis of the video of unit-4 showing that there is no water left in the pool :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6DZQzY_k2c&feature=player_embedded

Both been here, and both are greatly debated by the lack of evidence.

 

[ivars]

Leak continues into the Pacific after polymer-paper-sawdust application:

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2657&p=31565#p31565"

 

[AntonL]

Leak continues into the Pacific after polymer-paper-sawdust application:

http://saposjoint.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2657&p=31565#p31565"

So the mega-tampon out of special water absorbant polymer, 60kg sawdust and shredded newspaper did not work
(sorry for the sarcasm - could not resist)

 

[AtomicWombat]

AtomicWombat: Concerning your link at post number 2589 "Chernobyl: Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment": In my non-scientific opinion: If even one percent of this long article is the truth: It is overwhelmingly unbelievable and unbelievably overwhelming.

Hi mattm2,
I'm not in a position to to say whether it's accurate or not. But I can comment on whether it is scientifially reasonable and whether it would be immediately obvious without close study.

It is well known in epidemiological circles that the life expectancy in Russia, the Ukraine and Belarus declined from the late 1980s before starting to recover around 2000. This may be due to the collapse of the former Soviet Union.

The reports methodology is as follows (p207), "An estimate of the additional mortality from Chernobyl is possible on the basis of a comparison of mortality rates in highly contaminated territories and in less contaminated ones—so called “clean” areas." This is a scientifically sound approach explained in more detail in the report.

As to the magnitude of the deaths. From p211, "[This] study reveals that some 4% of all deaths from 1990 to 2004 in the contaminated territories of Ukraine and Russia were caused by the Chernobyl catastrophe."

Smoking kills far more people in Russia alone. "Some 250 000 men are estimated to have died in Russia in 1995 due to tobacco use, three out of four of them (190 000) at ages 35–69 years." See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1759630/pdf/v007p00003.pdf") For 150 million people that is about 2,250,000 deaths per year.

Assume (for arguments sake) that 4% of these deaths were due to Chernobyl. 4% of 2,250,000 is 90,000. So if 190,000 young men are dropping dead from smoking causes alone (most from cardio-vascular disease), it would hardly be obvious that 90,000 deaths in all age groups of a total of 2.25 million deaths were ultimately linked to Chernobyl.

I don't think the report can be immediately dismissed, but nor can the much lower IAEA estimate. The issue can't be resolved on this forum, so I'm happy to leave it at that.

 

[AtomicWombat]

First watch this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12931413" released by Tepco, showing close up of the mess in unit 4

Now watch http://vimeo.com/21789121" analysing the Tepco crane head view

Is the spent fuel pool severely damaged and empty or part empty?

I think I have an explanation for the railings and it is not due to the use of a wide angle lens. The fuel handling machine (FHM) is indeed below the railings, but the railings are on the overhead gantry crane. Note that the railings in Gundersen's video grab are fixed. Those on the operating floor between the SFP and the reactor are removable in an example photo shown earlier (attached). I hope the attached pictures are self-explanatory.

 

[TCups]

analysis of the video of unit-4 showing that there is no water left in the pool :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6DZQzY_k2c&feature=player_embedded

THANK GOD, GUNDERSON IS WRONG ABOUT THE FUEL RACK -- IMPORTANT!


Credit to Fred who originally noted this.

This is Gunderson's exposed fuel rack -- a grid-like object at the left center edge of this view from above, fish eye lens on the water boom

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture33.png

this frame from the Gunderson video, my circle added for emphahsis.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture34-1.png

. . . and here is TCup's analysis of the ominous view of the top of a fuel rack. It is part of the fuel handling machine. Note the same piece of debris (arrow) as in the Gunderson video. He should be more careful in his analysis, and maybe I should be on Fox News.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture18.png STILL WAITING FOR POST#2603 TO BE DEBUNKED PLEASE. NEED SOME EXPERT INPUT.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3226422&postcount=2603

 

[AtomicWombat]

I think I have an explanation for the railings and it is not due to the use of a wide angle lens. The fuel handling machine (FHM) is indeed below the railings, but the railings are on the overhead gantry crane. Note that the railings in Gundersen's video grab are fixed. Those on the operating floor between the SFP and the reactor are removable in an example photo shown earlier (attached). I hope the attached pictures are self-explanatory.

View attachment 33953

View attachment 33954

View attachment 33955

Further to my earlier post. I've attached Gundersen's video grab which I have annotated. Both sets of railings - those of the gantry crane and those of the SFP appear to be vsible.

 

[AntonL]

Further to my earlier post. I've attached Gundersen's video grab which I have annotated. Both sets of railings - those of the gantry crane and those of the SFP appear to be vsible.

AtomicWombat I agree with your analysis and withdraw my earlier comment

 

[TCups]

Further to my earlier post. I've attached Gundersen's video grab which I have annotated. Both sets of railings - those of the gantry crane and those of the SFP appear to be vsible.

AtomicWombat:

You are right about the two sets of railings, one on the overhead crane, one on the back side of the SFP4. If you look carefully at the front side of SFP4 and consider how thick the front wall of the SFP4 must be, then you can look for remnants of the railings on the front and east side of the pool and see them.

The fuel handling machine has not dropped into the pool. If it were in close proximity to fuel rods gone dry and melted, it would not still be a nice green color -- it would also be burned and melted. Perspective is fooling you (and Mr. Gunderson).

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture63.png

Actually, I take back the first comment. You are wrong about the lower set of railings -- the upper set is on the overhead crane, the lower set is on the deck of the fuel handling machine.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/FHM.jpg

Also, don't be fooled by perspective here -- the railing to the left of the damaged SFP (see the fuel handling machine sitting well above it?) is on the tower.

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33954

 

[|Fred]

*cough*
I've king of have said so since friday (including a nice picture showing the overhead crane), I even sent Gunderson a letter Friday after noon asking him to reconsider the mistake he made.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3223712&postcount=2408

now the isse we have is that i suspect that the 2 crane caved in and we may face a new disaster if the fuel handling crane is further push down into the pool

 

[Borek]

also note the steam rising - so it is pretty hot

Not necessarily. Amount of steam appearing is a function of water temperature, air temperature and humidity. I have seen steaming water that was lukewarm at best.